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Subject: Complexity? rss

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Mark Iradian
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Anyone know how complex the game will be?

I understand that it is a spiritual successor to Blood Rage, but I just want to know how intuitive the system is. The reason why I ask is Blood Rage, while straightforward to play, might take a few plays before grasping an idea on what is going on in terms of strategy.

I was hoping Rising Sun would be understandable from the start, similar to Diplomacy, instead of requiring multiple plays to "get it"
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Jason Brown
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MarkyX wrote:
Anyone know how complex the game will be?

I understand that it is a spiritual successor to Blood Rage, but I just want to know how intuitive the system is. The reason why I ask is Blood Rage, while straightforward to play, might take a few plays before grasping an idea on what is going on in terms of strategy.

I was hoping Rising Sun would be understandable from the start, similar to Diplomacy, instead of requiring multiple plays to "get it"

I hope it's not so simple that you can figure it out on the first play through. Good strategy games take several plays to understand the complexity of decisions and "see" the cascading effects of their decisions.

Blood Rage is an awesome game in that you can explain the rules and begin playing in about 10 minutes, but it takes several plays to develop a true feel for its intricacies. I sincerely hope Rising Sun is the same way.
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Ben Rubinstein

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MarkyX wrote:
Anyone know how complex the game will be?

I understand that it is a spiritual successor to Blood Rage, but I just want to know how intuitive the system is. The reason why I ask is Blood Rage, while straightforward to play, might take a few plays before grasping an idea on what is going on in terms of strategy.

I was hoping Rising Sun would be understandable from the start, similar to Diplomacy, instead of requiring multiple plays to "get it"


People keep saying that it's the spiritual successor to Blood Rage. Where was that stated? I remember hearing Lang say that it was the spiritual successor to Diplomacy.

That said, I too hope it has a bit less complexity that BR.
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epilepticemu wrote:
MarkyX wrote:
Anyone know how complex the game will be?

I understand that it is a spiritual successor to Blood Rage, but I just want to know how intuitive the system is. The reason why I ask is Blood Rage, while straightforward to play, might take a few plays before grasping an idea on what is going on in terms of strategy.

I was hoping Rising Sun would be understandable from the start, similar to Diplomacy, instead of requiring multiple plays to "get it"


People keep saying that it's the spiritual successor to Blood Rage. Where was that stated? I remember hearing Lang say that it was the spiritual successor to Diplomacy.

That said, I too hope it has a bit less complexity that BR.


I watched a Dice Tower video where Eric Lang specifically described it as a 'spiritual successor to BR' and also mentioned inspiration being taken from Diplomacy.
 
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Nigel McNaughton
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Yeah the Diplomacy link is the the same as Blood Rage's origins in Risk (from Eric).

As far as complexity we know next to nothing about the actual game. Apart from a lot of great artwork.
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Theodore Martinovich
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I believe the blood rage reference was not so much in gameplay as visual appeal. Mythological, brutal, non chibi looking minis and artwork. Diplomacy was in reference to gameplay. I think Eric Lang said somewhere he wants to make a number of games with the same kind of art style/miniatures (mcvey), and gritty look... with real word mythological influences.
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Fed Aykin

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Jinxstar wrote:
I believe the blood rage reference was not so much in gameplay as visual appeal. Mythological, brutal, non chibi looking minis and artwork. Diplomacy was in reference to gameplay. I think Eric Lang said somewhere he wants to make a number of games with the same kind of art style/miniatures (mcvey), and gritty look... with real word mythological influences.


Rising Sun has the same designer as well as same artist as Blood Rage. I expect that the gameplay will be quite different. However, no one really knows anything, and we probably won't until sometime in 2017, which is when the Kickstarter is scheduled.
 
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Ben Rubinstein

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DreadFool wrote:
epilepticemu wrote:
MarkyX wrote:
Anyone know how complex the game will be?

I understand that it is a spiritual successor to Blood Rage, but I just want to know how intuitive the system is. The reason why I ask is Blood Rage, while straightforward to play, might take a few plays before grasping an idea on what is going on in terms of strategy.

I was hoping Rising Sun would be understandable from the start, similar to Diplomacy, instead of requiring multiple plays to "get it"


People keep saying that it's the spiritual successor to Blood Rage. Where was that stated? I remember hearing Lang say that it was the spiritual successor to Diplomacy.

That said, I too hope it has a bit less complexity that BR.


I watched a Dice Tower video where Eric Lang specifically described it as a 'spiritual successor to BR' and also mentioned inspiration being taken from Diplomacy.


Whoops, you're right. He did call it a Spiritual Successor to Blood Rage. I'm not quite sure what that means though. He called Blood Rage inspired by Risk, and said this is inspired by Diplomacy. But Blood Rage has pretty much zero in common with Risk sooo....
 
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Luke S.
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BathTubNZ wrote:
Yeah the Diplomacy link is the the same as Blood Rage's origins in Risk (from Eric).

As far as complexity we know next to nothing about the actual game. Apart from a lot of great artwork.


...That's not entirely true. We know that players represent clans, consisting of warrior-types, leaders and monks. We also know that players can recruit monsters, and that the leaders and clans can be upgraded using upgrade cards gained throughout the game.

These are all gameplay elements mentioned on the FB page that are similar to those found in Blood Rage. While these similarities imply a similar level of complexity to BR, the addition of asymmetric clan powers, the honour gauge(?), and an emphasis on alliance forming/breaking sounds like it may in fact be a little more involved.

While details on the actual gameplay are sparse, considering all the available information as a whole does paint some picture. And speaking of painted pictures, how great is the artwork, right!?
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Kevin T
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Also worth noting that 'Blood Rage' is a spirtual successor to 'Chaos in The Old World.' If you've never read the rules to or played CiTOW I'd recommend it. It's very easy to see the roots of Blood Rage(and it's also really good!). Seeing that progression will help you see what Eric can do with two games build on the same chasis. I'm very excited to see how he implements the negotiating aspect into the design with 'Rising Sun.'
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Peter Dorsett
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Interesting... I didn't know that about CiTOW, but had thought it before.

Call me a heretic, but bloodrage wasn't 'all that' for me... but I suspect this could be. I'm am similarly very keen to see how the introduction of negotiation (that is kept in balance alongside an honour/ dishonour track) can be integrated into Erik Lang mechanics.

Edit: +1 MAJBrown22
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Deranged
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Wait, Diplomacy is easy?

Ghe .
 
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Steven
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I am still trying to figure out what spiritual successor means...

...Is it Blood Rage evolved into something that replaces Blood Rage because of more streamlined mechanics/design.

...Is it a completely different game that just shares a few mechanics.

...Is it basically the same game with a new theme.

...Does it work better with 2....

So many questions.
 
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Jason Brown
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All but one of your questions were answered in the initial press release.

fubarbox wrote:
I am still trying to figure out what spiritual successor means...
It means that it has the same designer, artist and publishing team.

fubarbox wrote:
...Is it Blood Rage evolved into something that replaces Blood Rage because of more streamlined mechanics/design.

No.

fubarbox wrote:
...Is it a completely different game that just shares a few mechanics.

It's completely new and doesn't share any mechanics. It is to Diplomacy what Blood Rage is to Risk.

fubarbox wrote:
...Is it basically the same game with a new theme.

No.

fubarbox wrote:
...Does it work better with 2....

So many questions.

This hasn't been addressed. I'd guess no since it's a diplomacy style game.
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Steven
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So it is nothing like Blood Rage, Does not share any mechanics with Blood Rage, and the only thing in common it has with blood rage is the same designer, artist and publishing team....

...Spiritual successor is defined as (important parts in bold): spiritual successor is a successor to a work of fiction which does not build upon the storyline established by a previous work as do most traditional prequels or sequels, yet features many of the same elements, themes, and styles as its source material, thereby resulting in it being related or similar "in spirit" to its predecessor.

....Considering the above it would seem like calling this the Spiritual successor to blood rage is nothing more than marketing spin and this game is no more an actual spiritual successor to Blood Rage as it is to Kahosball or Bloodborne....
 
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Jason Brown
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If you want to get that emotionally invested in the words Eric M. Lang chose to describe this game, that's okay. I was just answering your questions.
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Steven
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Emotionally invested? Ok... Was just trying to figure out if I wanted to sell my Blood Rage stuff or not (prefer this theme). You answered my question, which is great. I was just pointing out that the answer made me realize the term used is just marketing hype and that the game is actually not a successor at all, but a new game by the same team, which happens all the time. If you want to read more into my emotions, thats on you. But thanks.
 
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Mr Suitcase
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fubarbox wrote:
Emotionally invested? Seriously? Was just trying to figure out if I wanted to sell my Blood Rage stuff or not (prefer this theme). You answered my question, which is great. I was just pointing out that the answer made me realize the term used is just marketing hype and that the game is actually not a successor at all, but a new game by the same team, which happens all the time. If you want to read more into my empotions, thats on you. But thanks.


Yeah. It isn't a spiritual successor in the sense of a "retheming of the same game" sense. I think it meant the "feel" of the game.

Also, when I watched the video where Eric Lang mentioned the words "spiritual successor", he was talking about it being a successor to Diplomacy, whereas Blood Rage was a spiritual successor to Risk.

Hope that helps your evaluation.

I'd keep your blood rage though - this game is at least a year out, and we don't know a lot of the details.
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J P
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fubarbox wrote:
So it is nothing like Blood Rage, Does not share any mechanics with Blood Rage, and the only thing in common it has with blood rage is the same designer, artist and publishing team....

...Spiritual successor is defined as (important parts in bold): spiritual successor is a successor to a work of fiction which does not build upon the storyline established by a previous work as do most traditional prequels or sequels, yet features many of the same elements, themes, and styles as its source material, thereby resulting in it being related or similar "in spirit" to its predecessor.

....Considering the above it would seem like calling this the Spiritual successor to blood rage is nothing more than marketing spin and this game is no more an actual spiritual successor to Blood Rage as it is to Kahosball or Bloodborne....


I'm not sure what you mean? Rising Sun fits that definition perfectly. Or is this somehow the first time you've encountered the term "spiritual successor?" The term has been around a very long time and it isn't just marketing spin. It's an acceptable and accurate descriptor.
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Steven
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First, thank you for the somewhat belittling remark, even if you did not mean for it to read that way. Second, how do you define perfectly? Because if you look at the above bold part, how can you say a game that shares nothing in common (mechanics, theme, ect.) with the other (aside from design team)could fit the definition of Spiritual successor I posted in my post. In this case, this being the spiritual successor is just marketing spin, but if you feel different, thats awesome!

@Mr. Suitcase: Thanks for the response, that helps a lot. Although I am curious how the feel of the games will turn out since Diplomacy always felt very different than risk for me. Can't wait to see more info!
 
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fubarbox wrote:
First, thank you for the somewhat belittling remark, even if you did not mean for it to read that way. Second, how do you define perfectly? Because if you look at the above bold part, how can you say a game that shares nothing in common (mechanics, theme, ect.) with the other (aside from design team)could fit the definition of Spiritual successor I posted in my post. In this case, this being the spiritual successor is just marketing spin, but if you feel different, thats awesome!

@Mr. Suitcase: Thanks for the response, that helps a lot. Although I am curious how the feel of the games will turn out since Diplomacy always felt very different than risk for me. Can't wait to see more info!


In terms of elements, themes, and styles there is a lot in common aesthetically.

Themes: They're both based in mythology. yes, the cultures they borrow from may be different, but the overall theme is mythology in both of them.

Elements and styles: Well, both games feature unnecessary, yet gorgeous miniatures. Visually the games are similar in that they both have the artistic direction dictated by Adrian Smith. They also used many of the same sculptors.

Both games have a unity between their style in my opinion. In this sense, we are speaking of visual style as opposed to the style of mechanics. The visuals are clearly very important to this game. As I said, they're not necessary, as you could play the same exact game with standees or meeples. Yet, the designers still use them because they think they're important to the overall style and presentation.

You may think only mechanics are important, but they, I, and many others disagree. The visual presentation of this game is important and is, so far, very much like Blood Rage.
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Tilou
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RS probably shares with BR the unit distribution of leader-base units-monsters.
 
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fubarbox wrote:
Emotionally invested? Ok... Was just trying to figure out if I wanted to sell my Blood Rage stuff or not (prefer this theme). You answered my question, which is great. I was just pointing out that the answer made me realize the term used is just marketing hype and that the game is actually not a successor at all, but a new game by the same team, which happens all the time. If you want to read more into my emotions, thats on you. But thanks.


Youre taking an off the cuff answer to a random, spontaneous interview at a convention as "marketing hype". Just breathe. Itll all be okay.
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Steven
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jnowak415 wrote:
fubarbox wrote:
Emotionally invested? Ok... Was just trying to figure out if I wanted to sell my Blood Rage stuff or not (prefer this theme). You answered my question, which is great. I was just pointing out that the answer made me realize the term used is just marketing hype and that the game is actually not a successor at all, but a new game by the same team, which happens all the time. If you want to read more into my emotions, thats on you. But thanks.


Youre taking an off the cuff answer to a random, spontaneous interview at a convention as "marketing hype". Just breathe. Itll all be okay.


Thanks for being condescending, I am impressed. I am taking an off the cuff answer that was repeated in multiple video interviews and articles by Eric Lang and CMON (feel free to google search), that doesn’t seem to fit. That said, I am sorry that trying to figure out if this was mechanically a Blood Rage replacement (original question) caused so much offense and white knighting. I guess I am also sorry for pointing out that in my point of view (obviously looking at mechanics as said in my original question) being a game from the same designer and publishing team is not what makes a Spiritual successor. It always seems to amaze me how invested people become in defending what needs no defense. Please carry on. I know it’s a lost cause when irrational comments are getting thumbs. We obviously will never agree and at least my original question was answered by Mr. Suitcase. So take care and thanks for all the fish, I do not plan to continue on this thread.
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Tilou
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fubarbox wrote:
jnowak415 wrote:
fubarbox wrote:
Emotionally invested? Ok... Was just trying to figure out if I wanted to sell my Blood Rage stuff or not (prefer this theme). You answered my question, which is great. I was just pointing out that the answer made me realize the term used is just marketing hype and that the game is actually not a successor at all, but a new game by the same team, which happens all the time. If you want to read more into my emotions, thats on you. But thanks.


Youre taking an off the cuff answer to a random, spontaneous interview at a convention as "marketing hype". Just breathe. Itll all be okay.


Thanks for being condescending, I am impressed. I am taking an off the cuff answer that was repeated in multiple video interviews and articles by Eric Lang and CMON (feel free to google search), that doesn’t seem to fit. That said, I am sorry that trying to figure out if this was mechanically a Blood Rage replacement (original question) caused so much offense and white knighting. I guess I am also sorry for pointing out that in my point of view (obviously looking at mechanics as said in my original question) being a game from the same designer and publishing team is not what makes a Spiritual successor. It always seems to amaze me how invested people become in defending what needs no defense. Please carry on. I know it’s a lost cause when irrational comments are getting thumbs. We obviously will never agree and at least my original question was answered by Mr. Suitcase. So take care and thanks for all the fish, I do not plan to continue on this thread.


Bye.
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