Chris R.
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In 2012, a Pew Charitable Trust report found that 1 in 8 voter registrations were significantly inaccurate or no longer valid. With about 146 million Americans registered to vote, this translates to about 18 million invalid voter registrations on the books.

More than 1.8 million deceased individuals are listed as voters.

About 2.75 million people have registrations in more than one state.

http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_as...

"Trump has a point if he would make it more clearly. It is hard to think of an innocent reason why Democrats spend so much time, energy, and money, scarce resources, resisting attempts to purge the voter rolls, that is to remove people who are dead or have otherwise left the jurisdiction. It's hard to think of an innocent reason why they fight so tremendously against voter ID laws. They say, well, that burdens the, exercise of a fundamental right. The Supreme Court said that travel is a fundamental right. No one thinks that showing an ID at the airport burdens that fundamental right.
...the 2010, '12, and '14 elections were rigged by the most intrusive and potentially punitive institution of the federal government, the IRS. You can read all about it in Kim Strassel's book The Intimidation Game." -- George Will, one of the original leaders of the #NeverTrump movement

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/17/george_wil...

"(The Obama administration) ... managed to put tens of thousands of American's voices on ice, not just in 2010, but in 2012 during the presidential election." -- Kimberley Strassel

One of their chief targets for IRS intimidation were vote-monitoring organizations to stop voter fraud.

...

Chairman of the 2016 Hillary Clinton presidential campaign says that it's okay for non-citizens to vote as long as they claim to be citizens?



"Permanent residents can get driver's licenses and some could probably risk prosecution if they vote in federal elections. At least 1,000 non-citizens voted in 2008 and 2012 in eight Virginia localities. ... Twelve states and the District of Columbia allow undocumented aliens to obtain a driver's license..."

https://www.lifezette.com/polizette/podesta-need-drivers-lic...

"Why Do Some Election Officials Want to Hide Evidence of Non-Citizen Voting?

Here's a little clue: About 80 percent of non-citizen voters vote ... Democratic."

'Our hands are kind of tied,' (Washington) Secretary of State Kim Wyman told a Seattle TV station, noting that the state doesn't allow verification of a person's citizenship for voting purposes. ...
(Washington, the mail-in voting state which last elected a Republican governor during the Carter administration.)

6.4 percent of non-citizens voted illegally in the 2008 presidential election and that 2.2 percent voted in the 2010 midterm congressional elections."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/440580/arcan-cetin-vot...

Motor voter bills, same-day registration, and voting in another voting precinct are all tools used for voter fraud.

...

"Undercover agents were able to vote as dead people, but election officials are attacking the agents. ... Young undercover agents were able to vote using the names of people three times their age, people who in fact were dead. In one example, a 24-year female agent gave the name of someone who had died in 2012 at age 87; the workers at the Manhattan polling site gave her a ballot, no questions asked."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/368234/voter-fraud-wev...

...

"A federal judge on Thursday (October 18) rejected the Florida Democratic Party's request to let people cast a ballot during early voting even if their registration application hasn't been verified."

(Florida Democratic Party isn't interested in honest elections?)

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/politics/florida-democrats-...

...

"...getting access to investigate the (computer voter) fraud and computer theft is nearly impossible. ...there is little or no way to verify vote counts on computers and said that a sketchy programmer or elections official can shift vote numbers around to favor their wished for result while still showing accurate numbers of votes. 'It's child's play.'"

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/expert-childs-play-to-rig-...
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Re: 1 of 8 registered voters are fraudulent or inaccurate. GROnads is #2
"moi' WERE #2 'registered voter', so, that left YOU and the next 6 'respondents' as "suspect"! whistle
 
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Les Marshall
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sikeospi wrote:
In 2012, a Pew Charitable Trust report found that 1 in 8 voter registrations were significantly inaccurate or no longer valid. With about 146 million Americans registered to vote, this translates to about 18 million invalid voter registrations on the books.

More than 1.8 million deceased individuals are listed as voters.

About 2.75 million people have registrations in more than one state.

http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_as...

"Trump has a point if he would make it more clearly. It is hard to think of an innocent reason why Democrats spend so much time, energy, and money, scarce resources, resisting attempts to purge the voter rolls, that is to remove people who are dead or have otherwise left the jurisdiction. It's hard to think of an innocent reason why they fight so tremendously against voter ID laws. They say, well, that burdens the, exercise of a fundamental right. The Supreme Court said that travel is a fundamental right. No one thinks that showing an ID at the airport burdens that fundamental right.
...the 2010, '12, and '14 elections were rigged by the most intrusive and potentially punitive institution of the federal government, the IRS. You can read all about it in Kim Strassel's book The Intimidation Game." -- George Will, one of the original leaders of the #NeverTrump movement

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/17/george_wil...

"(The Obama administration) ... managed to put tens of thousands of American's voices on ice, not just in 2010, but in 2012 during the presidential election." -- Kimberley Strassel

One of their chief targets for IRS intimidation were vote-monitoring organizations to stop voter fraud.

...

Chairman of the 2016 Hillary Clinton presidential campaign says that it's okay for non-citizens to vote as long as they claim to be citizens?



"Permanent residents can get driver's licenses and some could probably risk prosecution if they vote in federal elections. At least 1,000 non-citizens voted in 2008 and 2012 in eight Virginia localities. ... Twelve states and the District of Columbia allow undocumented aliens to obtain a driver's license..."

https://www.lifezette.com/polizette/podesta-need-drivers-lic...

"Why Do Some Election Officials Want to Hide Evidence of Non-Citizen Voting?

Here's a little clue: About 80 percent of non-citizen voters vote ... Democratic."

'Our hands are kind of tied,' (Washington) Secretary of State Kim Wyman told a Seattle TV station, noting that the state doesn't allow verification of a person's citizenship for voting purposes. ...
(Washington, the mail-in voting state which last elected a Republican governor during the Carter administration.)

6.4 percent of non-citizens voted illegally in the 2008 presidential election and that 2.2 percent voted in the 2010 midterm congressional elections."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/440580/arcan-cetin-vot...

Motor voter bills, same-day registration, and voting in another voting precinct are all tools used for voter fraud.

...

"Undercover agents were able to vote as dead people, but election officials are attacking the agents. ... Young undercover agents were able to vote using the names of people three times their age, people who in fact were dead. In one example, a 24-year female agent gave the name of someone who had died in 2012 at age 87; the workers at the Manhattan polling site gave her a ballot, no questions asked."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/368234/voter-fraud-wev...

...

"A federal judge on Thursday (October 18) rejected the Florida Democratic Party's request to let people cast a ballot during early voting even if their registration application hasn't been verified."

(Florida Democratic Party isn't interested in honest elections?)

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/politics/florida-democrats-...

...

"...getting access to investigate the (computer voter) fraud and computer theft is nearly impossible. ...there is little or no way to verify vote counts on computers and said that a sketchy programmer or elections official can shift vote numbers around to favor their wished for result while still showing accurate numbers of votes. 'It's child's play.'"

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/expert-childs-play-to-rig-...


One of the things they teach in law school is lead with your best argument and try to avoid using evidence that is suspect as it tends to undermine your argument.

Your lead is about voter registration being 1/8 fraudulent or inaccurate. Even if true, that does not support a conclusion that votes are being cast in the names of those registrants. You'd actually need evidence of such voting to make that case which is where you should have started.

The piece by George Will is conclusory. It's "hard" to think of an innocent reason to oppose purges of voter rolls or the requirement of voter ID. It isn't hard. The case has been made over and over. We aren't Nazi Germany. Our citizens don't "carry papers". We have aright to vote and the exercise of that right should be predicated obtaining a specific ID that the states have failed to make uniformly available in a cheap and easy fashion. Voter roll "purging" has been used in local areas to lock out people for simply having similar names thus effectively disenfranchising them.

The piece on the National Review article claiming 6.4% of non-citizens vote is based on an alleged study without either naming the people who conducted the study or proving a citation so the reader can check to see if the study had any of the requisite elements of a scholarly article. Moreover, the article starts with a correction that they had misidentified the central "example" of a non-citizen voter who actually had turned out to be a naturalized citizen.

Throwing a bunch of crap at the wall trying to impress people with the "volume" of material is no substitute for analyzing the crap you are throwing.
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Jon Badolato
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Guys, it's Sikeopsi. 90 percent of what he posts tends to contradict his premises. Is this still surprising to people in this forum ?

And of course Les is correct. The implication of the post is that because dead people are on the rolls then others are voting for them. Which is a crock.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-com...

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110% of trump voters are dumb and 107% of democrat voters are dead.
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Rulesjd wrote:
sikeospi wrote:
[Chris' original post]


One of the things they teach in law school is lead with your best argument and try to avoid using evidence that is suspect as it tends to undermine your argument.

Your lead is about voter registration being 1/8 fraudulent or inaccurate. Even if true, that does not support a conclusion that votes are being cast in the names of those registrants. You'd actually need evidence of such voting to make that case which is where you should have started.

The piece by George Will is conclusory. It's "hard" to think of an innocent reason to oppose purges of voter rolls or the requirement of voter ID. It isn't hard. The case has been made over and over. We aren't Nazi Germany. Our citizens don't "carry papers". We have aright to vote and the exercise of that right should be predicated obtaining a specific ID that the states have failed to make uniformly available in a cheap and easy fashion. Voter roll "purging" has been used in local areas to lock out people for simply having similar names thus effectively disenfranchising them.

The piece on the National Review article claiming 6.4% of non-citizens vote is based on an alleged study without either naming the people who conducted the study or proving a citation so the reader can check to see if the study had any of the requisite elements of a scholarly article. Moreover, the article starts with a correction that they had misidentified the central "example" of a non-citizen voter who actually had turned out to be a naturalized citizen.

Throwing a bunch of crap at the wall trying to impress people with the "volume" of material is no substitute for analyzing the crap you are throwing.


I agree with everything you said.

However, ignoring basic Human heuristics is disingenuous. It is, in my opinion, intentional naïveté to not recognize that in this political climate and with tens of millions of questionable potential voters, that there are not many, many illegal votes being cast. One would have to assign a degree of moral honesty to select demographics that is both unwarranted and statistically simply untrue.

The argument regarding the disenfranchisement of voters is fallacious. Every time an illegal vote is cast, this, by definition, is the disenfranchisement of an opposite legally cast vote.

Whether the popular illegal vote manages to affect elections is a very important question. It is routinely hand-waved away as obviously not altering anything, while simultaneously shouting down any attempt whatsoever at practical inquiry into the matter (i.e. you're a racist and want to disenfranchise Black people, for example).

If the Human heuristics, as I call it, pointed to an overall conservative advantage, you can be damn sure that progressives would demand action.


With respect to "papers", no, of course this isn't Nazi Germany or the Soviet Bloc, where the police state used identification to control the population. And, parenthetically, we ought to always be vigilant that that does not happen.

Having said that, although the United States is one of the least socialist nation states in the World, it still has a significant socialist aspect to daily life. What do you expect, that one just walks into a government office and say, hi, I need money, give me some. Identification is an important, indeed obligatory in my opinion, tool and mechanism for a modern liberal democratic nation state. Moreover, there are many other reasons that identification is just plain necessary, other than government-facing ones, which I don't think it necessary to list.

It is the progressive Left that absolutely does not want IDs because they know exactly how that story will play out. Said differently, the Left absolutely does not want an absolute and effective way to identify legitimate voters. I think that the argument that the government is not now providing some simple and ubiquitous form of ID, and that is some unmanageable burden on so many people, is a red herring.


Undocumented workers, or whatever the term-du-jour is, are illegal aliens. They have no right to be in the United States, are not citizens and do not have a right to cast a vote in determining the future nature of the country.

Barring difficult ways of cheating the system, it is pretty well-known how to identify people effectively. We do it all the time when there is a serious cost involved, such as healthcare, a passport, etc.
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isaacc wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
sikeospi wrote:
[Chris' original post]


One of the things they teach in law school is lead with your best argument and try to avoid using evidence that is suspect as it tends to undermine your argument.

Your lead is about voter registration being 1/8 fraudulent or inaccurate. Even if true, that does not support a conclusion that votes are being cast in the names of those registrants. You'd actually need evidence of such voting to make that case which is where you should have started.

The piece by George Will is conclusory. It's "hard" to think of an innocent reason to oppose purges of voter rolls or the requirement of voter ID. It isn't hard. The case has been made over and over. We aren't Nazi Germany. Our citizens don't "carry papers". We have aright to vote and the exercise of that right should be predicated obtaining a specific ID that the states have failed to make uniformly available in a cheap and easy fashion. Voter roll "purging" has been used in local areas to lock out people for simply having similar names thus effectively disenfranchising them.

The piece on the National Review article claiming 6.4% of non-citizens vote is based on an alleged study without either naming the people who conducted the study or proving a citation so the reader can check to see if the study had any of the requisite elements of a scholarly article. Moreover, the article starts with a correction that they had misidentified the central "example" of a non-citizen voter who actually had turned out to be a naturalized citizen.

Throwing a bunch of crap at the wall trying to impress people with the "volume" of material is no substitute for analyzing the crap you are throwing.


I agree with everything you said.

However, ignoring basic Human heuristics is disingenuous. It is, in my opinion, intentional naïveté to not recognize that in this political climate and with tens of millions of questionable potential voters, that there are not many, many illegal votes being cast. One would have to assign a degree of moral honesty to select demographics that is both unwarranted and statistically simply untrue.

The argument regarding the disenfranchisement of voters is fallacious. Every time an illegal vote is cast, this, by definition, is the disenfranchisement of an opposite legally cast vote.

Whether the popular illegal vote manages to affect elections is a very important question. It is routinely hand-waved away as obviously not altering anything, while simultaneously shouting down any attempt whatsoever at practical inquiry into the matter (i.e. you're a racist and want to disenfranchise Black people, for example).

If the Human heuristics, as I call it, pointed to an overall conservative advantage, you can be damn sure that progressives would demand action.


With respect to "papers", no, of course this isn't Nazi Germany or the Soviet Bloc, where the police state used identification to control the population. And, parenthetically, we ought to always be vigilant that that does not happen.

Having said that, although the United States is one of the least socialist nation states in the World, it still has a significant socialist aspect to daily life. What do you expect, that one just walks into a government office and say, hi, I need money, give me some. Identification is an important, indeed obligatory in my opinion, tool and mechanism for a modern liberal democratic nation state. Moreover, there are many other reasons that identification is just plain necessary, other than government-facing ones, which I don't think it necessary to list.

It is the progressive Left that absolutely does not want IDs because they know exactly how that story will play out. Said differently, the Left absolutely does not want an absolute and effective way to identify legitimate voters. I think that the argument that the government is not now providing some simple and ubiquitous form of ID, and that is some unmanageable burden on so many people, is a red herring.


Undocumented workers, or whatever the term-du-jour is, are illegal aliens. They have no right to be in the United States, are not citizens and do not have a right to cast a vote in determining the future nature of the country.

Barring difficult ways of cheating the system, it is pretty well-known how to identify people effectively. We do it all the time when there is a serious cost involved, such as healthcare, a passport, etc.


Honestly, you could just take us at our word? I have no desire to win an "election" at all costs by faking an election to make sure a demagogue isn't elected.

The arguments are essentially that the studies on the topic, when done by independent agencies, show that voter fraud (and voter ID) serves a dual purpose -- stopping a very small amount of fake voting, but stopping a considerably larger amount of people from going out to vote.

There's very little more to it than that. The data shows it has a suppressing effect.

And of course, if it was Republicans who were staying home in lieu of getting IDs, you'd hear an entirely different spin on it. Obviously!

But as soon as you say "Ok, let's use voter ID to cut down on fake voting, but simultaneously increase access to people who otherwise might not vote," you get "woah woah we're not making up for those lazy fuckers who won't jump through our hoops, it's so easy to get an ID!"

Then you're back to square one, shouting "racists!" and "cheats!" at each other.
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jonb wrote:
Guys, it's Sikeopsi. 90 percent of what he posts tends to contradict his premises. Is this still surprising to people in this forum ?

And of course Les is correct. The implication of the post is that because dead people are on the rolls then others are voting for them. Which is a crock.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-com...


Not just that there is obviously going to be a time when people are registered in more than one state. It is the responsibility of the new election office to send the cancellation form to the old election office. That process doesn't happen overnight, and who knows maybe even it is still paper based with all the delays and losses that entails.
 
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Okay, VOTE! Drew is the: 'Cylon/Fraudulent/Inaccurate'; A-L-L "3"?!? sauron ~"at least VOTED!"
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Terwox wrote:
Honestly, you could just take us at our word?


Who's "us"? Democrats?

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! laugh

No.


A) I'm not a Democrat
B) I'm not voting Democratic for president this term
C) I'm to the right of Democrats on a handful of issues; environmentalism, death penalty, unions, guns, subsidies, assistance programs. (And obviously I'm way out to the left on others.)

The alternate option is "continue pretending you can read our minds and our secret malevolent motives to fake elections on a massive scale."

Occam would say perhaps you should listen to what we're saying instead.

Data shows ID has a suppressing effect. That's it. I'm perhaps in favor of ID -- I think it might be a waste of money and it won't mitigate the rare effect of fake votes, but it would end the stupid argument.

We could do retinal scans at voting booths and cross-compare patterns, that's fine too, once it's economically feasible.

I'd just like everyone to be able to vote so we can get back to pretending we aren't in a one party system as it is.
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Terwox wrote:
Data shows ID has a suppressing effect. That's it. I'm perhaps in favor of ID -- I think it might be a waste of money and it won't mitigate the rare effect of fake votes, but it would end the stupid argument.


Actually, we have data showing that voter ID increased turnout, particularly among minorities.


Care to share that data. Because examples like North Carolina seems to indicate that is right wing lies. But do cite your source
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Terwox wrote:
Data shows ID has a suppressing effect. That's it. I'm perhaps in favor of ID -- I think it might be a waste of money and it won't mitigate the rare effect of fake votes, but it would end the stupid argument.


Actually, we have data showing that voter ID increased turnout, particularly among minorities.


Source, please! So far I've been comfortable w/ 538's review.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/tighter-restrictions-are...

That's not the one precisely, but it was at hand.
 
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Hummmm.... I wonder how "inaccurate" they are and if it matters all that much.

I went to vote over the weekend and found both myself and my mother had been "Purged" from the rolls and so we had to re-register yesterday or not vote this time around. I ended up getting that done but my mother wasn't feeling well so she didn't.

It was very annoying. All we had done since the last election was change which PO Box our mail was going to due to a US Post office F-Up which bounced some of our mail when we were out of state. But we did vote in the last election and the state still collects is taxes on the house I pay the mortgage on and we both still have current State issued driver's licenses with that address on them.

So how hard would it really have been to confirm we are still valid voters in this day and age of computers?

Yet we ended up purged somehow and while I was re-registering there were at least 3 other people in line griping about finding out they had been purged for no discernible reason too. Yesterday was the last day to register. So everybody else unfairly purged who didn't realize it yet is going to not get to vote this time around.

Washington State is very liberal BTW so this isn't some GOP conspiracy. Just General bureaucratic screw up.

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Meerkat wrote:


Hummmm.... I wonder how "inaccurate" they are and if it matters all that much.

I went to vote over the weekend and found both myself and my mother had been "Purged" from the rolls and so we had to re-register yesterday or not vote this time around. I ended up getting that done but my mother wasn't feeling well so she didn't.

It was very annoying. All we had done since the last election was change which PO Box our mail was going to due to a US Post office F-Up which bounced some of our mail when we were out of state. But we did vote in the last election and the state still collects is taxes on the house I pay the mortgage on and we both still have current State issued driver's licenses with that address on them.

So how hard would it really have been to confirm we are still valid voters in this day and age of computers?

Yet we ended up purged somehow and while I was re-registering there were at least 3 other people in line griping about finding out they had been purged for no discernible reason too. Yesterday was the last day to register. So everybody else unfairly purged who didn't realize it yet is going to not get to vote this time around.

Washington State is very liberal BTW so this isn't some GOP conspiracy.



Strangely enough though, you do have a GOP Secretary of State. Funny that
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Terwox wrote:
Data shows ID has a suppressing effect. That's it. I'm perhaps in favor of ID -- I think it might be a waste of money and it won't mitigate the rare effect of fake votes, but it would end the stupid argument.


Actually, we have data showing that voter ID increased turnout, particularly among minorities.


Still waiting for that data, or do we file it under "Drew's alt right lies"
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whistle Got the Voter's Pamphlet initially several weeks ago followed the next week with "Mail-in Ballot" and WE even have to "affix postage"?!? I'm taking mine down to "drop-off Ballot Box" instead.
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Soooooo being purged is a violation of your right to vote and worthy of a lawsuit, yes or no?
 
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GROGnads wrote:
whistle Got the Voter's Pamphlet initially several weeks ago followed the next week with "Mail-in Ballot" and WE even have to "affix postage"?!? I'm taking mine down to "drop-off Ballot Box" instead.


Yeah our ballots hadn't arrived which is why I went to vote over the weekend.
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Jythier wrote:
Soooooo being purged is a violation of your right to vote and worthy of a lawsuit, yes or no?


Maybe... I won't be suing... but I might if I thought I had been targeted for some reason in the purge rather than it being a general F-up.
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Meerkat wrote:
Jythier wrote:
Soooooo being purged is a violation of your right to vote and worthy of a lawsuit, yes or no?


Maybe... I won't be suing... but I might if I thought I had been targeted for some reason in the purge rather than it being a general F-up.


I'd be honked off, too.

Of all things in a democracy, registering to vote should be as easy as possible.
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Kumitedad wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Terwox wrote:
Data shows ID has a suppressing effect. That's it. I'm perhaps in favor of ID -- I think it might be a waste of money and it won't mitigate the rare effect of fake votes, but it would end the stupid argument.


Actually, we have data showing that voter ID increased turnout, particularly among minorities.


Still waiting for that data, or do we file it under "Drew's alt right lies"


Don't Shreve it.
 
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Les Marshall
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isaacc wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
sikeospi wrote:
[Chris' original post]


One of the things they teach in law school is lead with your best argument and try to avoid using evidence that is suspect as it tends to undermine your argument.

Your lead is about voter registration being 1/8 fraudulent or inaccurate. Even if true, that does not support a conclusion that votes are being cast in the names of those registrants. You'd actually need evidence of such voting to make that case which is where you should have started.

The piece by George Will is conclusory. It's "hard" to think of an innocent reason to oppose purges of voter rolls or the requirement of voter ID. It isn't hard. The case has been made over and over. We aren't Nazi Germany. Our citizens don't "carry papers". We have aright to vote and the exercise of that right should be predicated obtaining a specific ID that the states have failed to make uniformly available in a cheap and easy fashion. Voter roll "purging" has been used in local areas to lock out people for simply having similar names thus effectively disenfranchising them.

The piece on the National Review article claiming 6.4% of non-citizens vote is based on an alleged study without either naming the people who conducted the study or proving a citation so the reader can check to see if the study had any of the requisite elements of a scholarly article. Moreover, the article starts with a correction that they had misidentified the central "example" of a non-citizen voter who actually had turned out to be a naturalized citizen.

Throwing a bunch of crap at the wall trying to impress people with the "volume" of material is no substitute for analyzing the crap you are throwing.


I agree with everything you said.

However, ignoring basic Human heuristics is disingenuous. It is, in my opinion, intentional naïveté to not recognize that in this political climate and with tens of millions of questionable potential voters, that there are not many, many illegal votes being cast. One would have to assign a degree of moral honesty to select demographics that is both unwarranted and statistically simply untrue.

The argument regarding the disenfranchisement of voters is fallacious. Every time an illegal vote is cast, this, by definition, is the disenfranchisement of an opposite legally cast vote.

Whether the popular illegal vote manages to affect elections is a very important question. It is routinely hand-waved away as obviously not altering anything, while simultaneously shouting down any attempt whatsoever at practical inquiry into the matter (i.e. you're a racist and want to disenfranchise Black people, for example).

If the Human heuristics, as I call it, pointed to an overall conservative advantage, you can be damn sure that progressives would demand action.


With respect to "papers", no, of course this isn't Nazi Germany or the Soviet Bloc, where the police state used identification to control the population. And, parenthetically, we ought to always be vigilant that that does not happen.

Having said that, although the United States is one of the least socialist nation states in the World, it still has a significant socialist aspect to daily life. What do you expect, that one just walks into a government office and say, hi, I need money, give me some. Identification is an important, indeed obligatory in my opinion, tool and mechanism for a modern liberal democratic nation state. Moreover, there are many other reasons that identification is just plain necessary, other than government-facing ones, which I don't think it necessary to list.

It is the progressive Left that absolutely does not want IDs because they know exactly how that story will play out. Said differently, the Left absolutely does not want an absolute and effective way to identify legitimate voters. I think that the argument that the government is not now providing some simple and ubiquitous form of ID, and that is some unmanageable burden on so many people, is a red herring.


Undocumented workers, or whatever the term-du-jour is, are illegal aliens. They have no right to be in the United States, are not citizens and do not have a right to cast a vote in determining the future nature of the country.

Barring difficult ways of cheating the system, it is pretty well-known how to identify people effectively. We do it all the time when there is a serious cost involved, such as healthcare, a passport, etc.
.


Your statement is what we might call conclusory. To wit, "many, many illegal votes being cast". Based on what? Your intuition? Are you an expert on the subject? Is there a case study you can point to to support your suspicion? What is many, many? Is it statistically significant? Are those votes predominantly democratic or republican? State or Federal?

We have many different forms of ID in the US for different purposes. A SSN is requisite for payroll and income taxes. You need a marriage license in most jurisdictions and a certificate of live birth is generally required for most births. A drivers license is necessary to operate a motor vehicle and that or an ID card is necessary to get a passport or qualify for all kinds of benefits or services. Sometimes the government requires an ID and sometimes its the bank or another private concern.

Regardless of whether most people have or use ID, access to such ID is generally is often considered private and not subject to production upon demand. Your doctor can ask for your SSN but, you don't have to give it. A detective might well want to review your tax record but, absent a subpoena and a showing of cause, you don't have to give it.

You have a right to cast a vote and no one can make that right more difficult without both a legitimate cause AND a showing that they are using the least restrictive means to satisfy that cause. Poll taxes, literacy tests, constricted poll resources and all sorts of other "regulatory" measures have been used to limit voting. If you are going to require voter ID you need both to show that it is reasonably necessary AND that it is the least restrictive means to do so.

Showing the need for voter ID based on fraud requires a demonstration of fraudulent votes being cast in sufficient density to actually pose a threat to election outcomes. Many statutes have been written and struck down simply because the legislative bodies didn't produce any real evidence of voter fraud being found. Moreover, when requiring ID you need to show that the ID is designed to be easily and equally obtained by even impoverished citizens. Requiring an annual renewal fee which is more than nominal or restricting the locations or hours to obtain ID so that citizens must travel significant distances or lose time from work very quickly can become an effective poll tax.

You are free to assume what you like about "liberal democrats" and their intentions. However, even Libertarians ought to be concerned about casual implementation of "identity papers". Today it's your ticket to a particular end but, in future it can well be turned upon you for less salubrious ends.
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Janelle Cooper
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Rulesjd wrote:
You need a marriage license in most jurisdictions and a certificate of live birth is generally required for most births.


Thanks be to God that I was born many decades ago, and did not have to produce a certificate of live birth in order to be born. That would have been rather complicated in the days before computers, time travel and rich cabinet members being immune to reality.

Thanks for a chuckle in a most grim time of hopelessness for democracy.
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James King
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Excerpts from "The Truth About Voter Fraud" by the Brennan Center for Justice


> Excerpts from "The Truth About Voter Fraud" by the Brennan Center for Justice:

Although it's easy for certain segments of the media to grab headlines by legitimizing a lurid claim like "Tens Of Thousands May Be Voting Illegally!" before it's even been investigated, once the matter has been reviewed, the verdict is seldom heralded with as much fanfare as the lurid claim originally got. And even when when an actual case of voter fraud is confirmed and verified, it's seldom deemed newsworthy for the front page because of its rather mundane nature.

Here are some prime examples of this axiom.



Although the headline in Michigan's two largtest newspapers screamed: "Dead People and Prisoners Cast 1,500 Votes", Michigan's Republican Secretary of State was forced to clarify that "clerical error [had been] the culprit behind the voting concerns, not voter fraud... in every instance where it appears a deceased person or incarcerated person [had] voted... a clerical error was established as the reason.”

The Claim: 1,500 fraudulant dead voters and prisoners voted.

The actual number of dead people and prisoners voting: 0.

0 out of 8,000,000 total votes.





In 2009, Fox News reported that hundreds of convicted felons had voted, possibly handing the election to Al Franken.

An independent audit of tens of thousands of votes found only 10. Since these were instances of ex-felons using their own identity to vote before their voting rights had been restored, voter ID would have had no effect.

None of the 10 felons were prosecuted as intentional fraud.

(Fox News never did correct or retract its story).
The Claim: Hundreds of convicted felons had voted.

Actual number of ex-felons improperly voting: 10.

10 out of 2,800,000 votes -- or 0.00003% of the vote.





Republicans claimed that Democratic voter fraud in Wisconsin was equal to "1 or 2 percentage points" of the vote. PolitiFact rated that claims as FALSE.

From 2008-2012, an Election Fraud Task Force operated with the District Attorneys of the 11 counties that Republicans most suspected of fraudulent voting. In the end,they found 20 cases, of which 6 concerned matters of voter registration, not voting. 14 were ex-felons voting before their voting rights had been restored.

In Wisconsin's voter ID trial, a federal judge asked the state to provide evidence of "voter impersonation" - the only type of fraud that voter ID can stop. The state could not produce a single known case in Wisconsin history.

The Claim: Up to 43,000 fraudulant voters.

Number of actual cases found: 14 (all ex-felons voting before their voting rights had been restored)

14 out of 10,500,000 votes, or 0.0001% of the vote.




Fox News claimed that there were "hundreds of cases of potential voter fraud in North Carolina."

NewsMax reported: "North Carolina Identifies 36,000 Possible Voter Fraud Cases".

TownHall.com reported: "Audit Finds Evidence of Widespread Voter Fraud in North Carolina."

These sort of headlines continued to echo through the conservative media.
But what was the truth behind these claims?

Simple: It turns out that when you can't find voter fraud, the easiest thing to do is expand where you look.

In 2012, Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach began pushing a new scheme called "Interstate Crosscheck". 25 mostly Republican states are participating. What sets the Interstate Crosscheck program apart from other systems state and local election boards use is the size of its database: In 2012, the program compared more than 84,000,000 voter registration records.

They were checking to confirm, for example, that a Bob Smith who voted in North Carolina wasn't the same Bob Smith who voted the same day in Florida, Alaska, and Ohio.

To date, no prosecutions have been brought based on this so-called "data".

The Claim: 36,000 fraudulant voters voting in multiple states

The actual number of multi-state voters: 0

0 out of 4,500,000 votes in North Carolina





The 2012 Allegation: "Nearly 200,000 Florida voters may not be citizens."

Based on this unsubstantiated claim, Republican Governor Rick Scott ordered a voter purge. When local officials reported badly flawed data, that seemed to single out Hispanics, the Secretary of State ended the voter purge and resigned. His replacement whittled the number down to 2600. After local officials initially found over 500 legal voters they were being asked to remove, they rebelled and ended the purge themselves. In the end, Florida contacted the 2,600 people purged and informed them they would be allowed to vote. Newspapers asked the Florida Dept. of Law Enforcement for all reports of people arrested on voter fraud charges from 2000-2011. The total was 11.

The Claim: 200,000 fraudulant voters.

The actual number from 2000-2011: 11

11 out of approximately 45,000,000 votes - or 0.00002% of the vote.





State officials claimed on Fox News that "900 dead people had voted."

After a year-long state investigation, the actual number of dead people voting turned out to be ZERO.

Note: South Carolina only released the results of the study after being sued by the media. Nonetheless, they still went on to pass one of the country's strictest voter ID laws "to prevent dead people from voting."

The Claim: 900 dead people voted.

The actual number of dead people voting: 0

0 out of 1,300,000 votes.





Between Fox News' reports of scary Black Panthers at Philadelphia polls and Sean Hannity's hysterical insistence that Romney getting no votes in some Philladelphia precincts was "mathematically impossible",
those "urban people" areas seemed rife with voter fraud. So the Republican governor and legislature launched an ambitious voter ID law.

The Philadelphia Inquirer actually sent reporters to scour these precincts, knock on doors of the listed addresses, to find those registered republicans. They mostly came up empty-handed. The few that actually existed voted for Obama.

Pennsylvania passed a tough voter ID law anyway. When appearing in court to defend it's new voter ID laws, a judge's request for evidence resulted in the state offering the "Applewhite Stipulation"; where they acknowledged that Pennsylvania could not produce a single known case of in-person voter fraud in its history.

0 out of 5,900,000 votes.





The Maine state Republican Party gave the Attorney General a list of the names of 206 college students that they believed had voted illegally in the state. The Attorney General expanded the investigation to include all types of "voter fraud". All the students were cleared and 1 case of a non-resident was discovered.

The Claim: 206 college student voted illegally.

The actual number of students "illegally" voting out of state: 1

1 out of 717,000 total votes, or 0.0001% of the vote.





"3,582 non-citizens may have registered to vote in Iowa, and 1208 voted in 2010." -- Iowa Republican Secretary of State Matt Schultz.

Schultz spent two years and $280,000 of federal "Help America Vote" funds chasing voter fraud instead, including hiring a full-time investigator.
Of the more than 2,000,000 votes cast,

Schultz said that of the 238 total cases of "suspected election misconduct" that were investigated. 117 were turned over to prosecutors. 27 ended up in charges, with a total of 6 convictions. The cost to the tax payer was $46,000.00 per conviction. 5 were ex-felons, voting before their rights had been restored. One actually was a case of a non-citizen voting -- a German national.

Interestingly, the investigation also uncovered 20 ex-felons who were illegally denied the right to vote. So there were actually three times more ex-felons kept from voting legally than allowed to vote illegally.

Nonetheless, Iowa Secretary of State Schultz came back asking for $140,000.00 more with which to fund his voter-fraud investigations.

The Claim: 3,582 non-citizens may have voted.

Actual number of illegal votes: 6

6 out of 2,500,000 total votes or 0.0002% of the vote.




Gregg Abbot made "voter fraud" a key pillar of his tenure as Texas Attorney General. He raided and shut down non-profit groups that registered poor and minority people in the Houston area.

After conducting extensive investigations over multiple elections, Abbott bragged in an editorial in USA Today that he had rounded up 50 fraudulent voters from 2004 to 2012.

Politifact rates that claim half-true because only 26 resulted in conviction.

26 out of approximately 35,000,000 votes over a decade, or 0.00005%.





Fox News alleged: "Non-citizens caught voting in 2012 Presidential election in key swing state."

According to Fox: "Husted also found that 274 non-citizens remain on the voting rolls. President Obama beat Mitt Romney in Ohio by just 2 percentage points in November 2012" (thus, implying one had anything to do with the other).

2% of the Ohio vote = 109,780. not 274)

274 was whittled down to 135 that were recommended to local prosecutors.

In a great story that really goes right to the heart of what typically happens in all these cases of large numbers of voter fraud claims - a newspaper consortium followed up every one of those cases in a piece entitled: "Potential Voter Fraud Cases From 2012 Election Often Dropped As Simple Mistakes And Elderly Confusion."

Eventually 17 cases did bring charges, from an old man who thought it was "all right" to vote on "just the local issues" at one house and the President in another state, to two people who voted absentee for the spouses or friends who died just before the election. One was a nun who voted for another nun who'd died. There was also one woman who apparently really did commit purposeful voter fraud by voting 5 times. She was given 5 years in prison.

The Claim: 274 non-eligible voters.

Actual number of voter fraud cases: 17.

17 out of almost 5,500,000 votes or 0.0003% of the vote.





The allegation: "How many non-citizens were on the rolls? There's a minimum of 489...but we have this pot of 20,000 that could include non-citizens." -- Scott Gessler, Colorado's voter-ID-advocating & voter-fraud-sniffing Republican Secretary of State.

The reality: Those 20,000 "potential" fraudulant voters became 489 and then devolved to 155, and then after further review, was lowered to 35 when checked against voters, of which 14 have never voted, Which left 21.

The Boulder/Denver District Attorney reviewed the 17 names submitted for potential prosecution and found all were easily able to verify their status as eligible voters.

The Claim: Anywhere from 489 up to 20,000 non-citizens voting.

The actual number of non-citizens voting: 0

0 out of approximately 3,000,000 votes.



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Les Marshall
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mom4rmhell wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
You need a marriage license in most jurisdictions and a certificate of live birth is generally required for most births.


Thanks be to God that I was born many decades ago, and did not have to produce a certificate of live birth in order to be born. That would have been rather complicated in the days before computers, time travel and rich cabinet members being immune to reality.

Thanks for a chuckle in a most grim time of hopelessness for democracy.


Most places require the ISSUANCE of a birth certificate immediately following a birth and many government institutions require the PRODUCTION of a birth certificate as a primary form of ID. Figured most people would infer this from what I wrote as opposed to being distracted from the main point by an exercise of literalism.
 
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