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Shadows of Brimstone: Forbidden Fortress» Forums » General

Subject: KS off to a great start... but man is Shogun a tough sell. rss

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Neomaxim Noefaith
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The KS is off to a great start, and the visible content look stunning, but man... even with the exclusive stretch-goals shown FAR in advance, Shogun-tier certainly isn't boggling my mind.

$85 of added value (at MSRP) is shown through $500,000, which means that it, one Deluxe Expansion, and the new core set are all being sold, totaled, above what their MSRP will ultimately be.

Considering normal game shop discounts, I think we're about $100 of "value" away from that tier actually being a tremendous deal.

That said, the base pledge seems like it becomes a good value much sooner, which has me excited.

I will admit, the KS exclusive Daimyo character is calling to me. I LOVE pet-classes in games like Diablo 2/3 so seeing the concept in SoB is awesome.
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Lonny x
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Pretty decent price hike from the original KS. The tiers make no sense either. The core set + stretch goals are 100 but the expansion and 2 KS exclusive mini's are 200 dollars? shake
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Neomaxim Noefaith
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Well, the expansion, one of the KS exclusive heroes, and any exclusive add-ons which are paid otherwise.

But as I said, those add-ons only total $85 through the next $500,000... Meaning the expansion, and one exclusive, as of hitting 500k, cost, $115... WELL above MSRP.
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Lonny x
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I think they will hit 1mil easy so that should help Shogun a bit more. It would be nice to know so I can secure an early bird but if the value isn't there then I missed the EB for just the core.

I'm pretty shocked older content isn't available out of the gate too. I only have Swamps and I was hoping to get City as an addon or a package deal.
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Paul Chamberland
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FFP is probably expecting the value of Shogun to be greatly increased by stretch goals by the end of the campaign. If not, a lot of people will drop to Sumo level - or drop their pledge all together.
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Richard A. Edwards
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Since this is a Kickstarter, they could use previous Shadows of Brimstone KS exclusives as stretch goals or add-ones for those of us who missed it.

THAT would make me jump.
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Mike Forrey
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SirRoke wrote:
Since this is a Kickstarter, they could use previous Shadows of Brimstone KS exclusives as stretch goals or add-ones for those of us who missed it.

THAT would make me jump.


I have to agree. If they put up the Brimstone stuff into the KS i would almost certainly jump on that. It's a fairly common thing to see in KS so it baffles me why they aren't taking advantage of it.
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Fnorbl Fnorblobson
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I tried to find the potential value of the Shogun reward. Note that I'm no expert on Shadows of Brimstone (I only got the Swamps of Death base game) and no expert either on Kickstarter (having just participated in about a dozen campaigns). Also nearly everything might change over the course of the campaign.

So, Sumo reward for 100$:
- the base game
- a couple of free stretch goals (if reached)
- a couple of mini expansions that might get unlocked as stretch goals and that you can buy additionally

Shogun reward for 300$:
- the same stuff as the Sumo reward
- the Temple of Shadows expansion
- unlocked mini expansions included without paying more

Currently five mini expansions are listed. They cost 85$ if you buy them in addition to the sumo reward (about 110$ retail).

That leaves us with currently 115$ for the Temple of Shadows expansion (300$ - 100$ Sumo Reward - 85$ Mini Expansions). Of course, that is if all the stretch goal mini expansions are reached. If some are not reached, then the Temple of Dark Shadows expansions basically becomes more and more expensive. On the other hand, if more mini-expansions are added that are automatically included in the Shogun Reward, it would become much more worth it.

So let's compare the content of the base game, that basically costs 100$, and the Temple of Dark Shadows expansion, that you'd pay 115$ for. Before the / is the base game content, after the / the Temple of Dark Shadows expansion content.

Classes: 5 / 5
Miniatures: 27 (22 M, 4 L, 1 XL) / 26 (12 S, 10 M, 3 L, 1 XL)
Cards: 250 / 135
Record Sheets: 11 / 8
Map Tiles: 12 / 4
Counters, Adventure Book: yes / yes
Soundtrack, Rulebook, Dice, Reference Charts: yes / no


Stretch Goals
Dragon, Spider Queen, 30 Additional Cards: yes / yes
Five Mini-Expansions: requires additional 85$ (retail costs about 25$ more) / included

Get the 100$ Sumo reward because:
115$ is a lot of money for an expansion that has less content than the 100$ base game and that might lose even more value if relevant stretch goals are not reached. With the Sumo reward you still got access to all mini-expansions and can choose freely which ones you like or don't. Also, if there will be a retail version of the Temple of Dark Shadows expansion (it's not listed as Kickstarter Exclusive) it might be far cheaper than 115$. In that case, all you lose is one kickstarter exclusive class with it's 1 (or 2 if unlocked) minatures. In case of doubt, you can still pick up the Shogun Reward later on. You miss then the 5$ Early Bird discount, but whether you pay 300$ plus shipping or 295$ plus shipping is not really that much of a difference.
Important Edit: Any unlocked mini-addons purchased here will be shipped separately from the US and are thus do not have EU-/Astrualia-friendly shipping. This might result in additional VAT or other taxes and increased shipping costs.

Get the 300$ Shogun reward because:
You get an exclusive class nobody else will have, with it's one or two miniatures. It's also not clear when or if it at all the Temple of Dark Shadows expansion will be available in stores. The campaign also suggests that there will be more stretch goals, and if some of them will be only for the Shogun reward, it will gain more and more value. In case of doubt, if stretch goals are not reached or no new interesting stretch goals for Shogun only are added, you can still later drop down to the Sumo Level. You then miss the 5$ Early Bird discount. You also get the mini-addons at the same time as the main game and with EU-/US-/Australian-friendly shipping.
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Daniel Kearns
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So they pulled the trigger and launched the next campaign before fully delivering on the last. Not super great but... Okay.

But am I also hearing that they've bungled the pledge tiers again?
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Aaron Fenwick
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Yeah a little uneasy pulling the trigger while still awaiting the rest of my 1st KS pledge to arrive. (And seeing almost all of it in shops as well) However, I do love the theme of the new box and enjoy the game as well...
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Paul Chamberland
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dkearns wrote:
So they pulled the trigger and launched the next campaign before fully delivering on the last. Not super great but... Okay.

But am I also hearing that they've bungled the pledge tiers again?

Just like the last KS, the higher value pledge isn't a good value for the money early on. There were a lot of complaints about value last time too.
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Highlord Tamburlaine
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The interesting thing is that when they start to introduce addons, they can automatically have them included in the Shogun pledge level to help pad out the value if they choose to.

Not saying they necessarily will, but I certainly don't mind if any bonus addons end up being automatically included...
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Ben Turner
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Mandor wrote:
FFP is probably expecting the value of Shogun to be greatly increased by stretch goals by the end of the campaign. If not, a lot of people will drop to Sumo level - or drop their pledge all together.


^^^ this ^^^

That said, currently tracking over $250K within a few hours - that's a good start. It's the snowball effect - either we get over the minimal "amazing" amount ($600-700K?) and more people pile onto Shogun, or we fall short and the snowball rolls backwards.

I'm an embittered original KS backer still waiting empty handed, but I guess that means I'm so excited to play the new stuff (Caverns of Cinder ! New town expansion !) that I've read about over the last year, that the release date on this whatever - I'll have plenty of new toys coming sometime next year.
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Fnorbl Fnorblobson
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I'm personally a bit confused about the weak Early Bird.

Currently, I probably won't pledge. Yes, I really like SoB, but I still got some interesting games coming in, and I've played SoB only a couple of times so far, so there is still a lot to explore. And if I want more content, I'll just buy Frontier Town or something like that.

If I change my mind, I can still pledge later, when it's clearer about what's going on with the stretch goals and maybe there are some preview videos and so on. In that case, I'd probably go all in to have the expansions without the double shipping fee and customs hassle. And having then paid 340$ instead of 335$ because I missed the Early Bird is not something that would really matter.
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Dean L
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illiterate bookworm wrote:
The interesting thing is that when they start to introduce addons, they can automatically have them included in the Shogun pledge level to help pad out the value if they choose to.

Not saying they necessarily will, but I certainly don't mind if any bonus addons end up being automatically included...


Given they're shipping the add-ons directly from the US store, I'd expect very few to zero add-ons that are not part of the Shogun pledge, certainly nothing with wide appeal as that'll be a tonne of extra work and prohibitive to international backers because of shipping costs etc.
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Robert Haddon
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Yeah, I'm not thrilled with the Shogun value as is. I'm pledged there now but I'll drop it to Sumo unless something changes.

I missed the original KS and paid dearly for a collection less than Minecart at retail, so I have that weighing on me as well.
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Rich Moore
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This is just like the mine cart level from the first campaign. They will add more add-on stretch goals that will be added to the Shogun level as the campaign progresses. In the end, $300 will totally be worth it, just as the mine cart was. I doubt it will be as much of a bargain as mine cart was, but I bet it will be substantial.

FFP also addresses the value of the Shogun level in their FAQ on the
Kickstarter page.
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Neil Edmonds
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One advantage of this Kickstarter is backers have some idea what they're pledging for:

1.) The game system is well-known at this point.

2.) There will likely be add-ons that aren't part of the Sumo/Shogun pledge level that you can pledge for separately. If you're a completionist, it means you'll have to spend more $$$ to have the full game.

3.) Miniature quality and assembly is now fully disclosed. I wouldn't expect a vast improvement over wave 1.5 Shadows of Brimstone. At the very least, it's a good metric to calibrate your assessment of value.

4.) It's great to see people talking about value for consumers without attempting to apply those same metrics to Flying Frog's pricing in order to justify what's "fair"; there are costs we don't see as consumers that Flying Frog still has to end up paying for as a producer and since companies have different cost structures, it's difficult to make accurate comparisons to games made by other companies or a simple metric like number of components to definitively prove a price is "wrong."
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Adam Canning
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Autoduelist wrote:
2.) There will likely be add-ons that aren't part of the Sumo/Shogun pledge level that you can pledge for separately. If you're a completionist, it means you'll have to spend more $$$ to have the full game.


It was asked about that in the comments and they said only things like the Darkstone crystals, custom dice and blank cards in the first kickstarter would be add-ons over Shogun, and likely only in the pledge manager. Everything that actually is game play related in theis kickstarter is they say going to be in Shogun.

Mostly because they are packing the Shogun and Sumo pledges in china and they'd like to keep the number of parcel types down to 2 with the add-ons later from the US (and thus incurring a second additional shipping fee).

Basically it looks like they learnt to have as few different types of reward box as possible from the first kickstarter.

SirRoke wrote:
Since this is a Kickstarter, they could use previous Shadows of Brimstone KS exclusives as stretch goals or add-ones for those of us who missed it.


All one of them. There was the Outlaw Hero Class and that was it.

Now Blasted Wastes and presumably Wreck of the Vostros may not reach stores until 2018 but that doesn't make them exclusive.
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Bernie Roessler
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Does it state anywhere that the Temple of Shadows is available as a add-on to a Sumo pledge?
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Chad Denton
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Beorndog wrote:
Does it state anywhere that the Temple of Shadows is available as a add-on to a Sumo pledge?


Looks like it's only part of the Shogun level pledge
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Andrea Florio
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Actually Jason replied in the Kickstarter comment that once we unlock all the goals up to 1 million dollars, the Shogun retail value will be around 700$.
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Richard A. Edwards
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andvice wrote:
Actually Jason replied in the Kickstarter comment that once we unlock all the goals up to 1 million dollars, the Shogun retail value will be around 700$.

If it is, I'll be sure and pledge. In the meantime...
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Ondrej Kocnar
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Phantomwhale wrote:
Mandor wrote:
FFP is probably expecting the value of Shogun to be greatly increased by stretch goals by the end of the campaign. If not, a lot of people will drop to Sumo level - or drop their pledge all together.


^^^ this ^^^

That said, currently tracking over $250K within a few hours - that's a good start. It's the snowball effect - either we get over the minimal "amazing" amount ($600-700K?) and more people pile onto Shogun, or we fall short and the snowball rolls backwards.

I'm an embittered original KS backer still waiting empty handed, but I guess that means I'm so excited to play the new stuff (Caverns of Cinder ! New town expansion !) that I've read about over the last year, that the release date on this whatever - I'll have plenty of new toys coming sometime next year.


The Kicktraq trending shows more than 5M trending for this KS.
The launch is even quicker than next time.
Last time they ended at 1.3 M.

Given this 1.5 M at least seems very probable.
Given that we can be reasonably sure there will be some "amazing amounts" in this KS.
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William Baker
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malkaven wrote:
I think they will hit 1mil easy so that should help Shogun a bit more. It would be nice to know so I can secure an early bird but if the value isn't there then I missed the EB for just the core.

I'm pretty shocked older content isn't available out of the gate too. I only have Swamps and I was hoping to get City as an addon or a package deal.


You should buy it from online shop, it'll be far cheaper than from FFP.
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