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Fury of Dracula (third edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Fighting Dracula and a vampire at the same time? rss

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Greg
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I'm not sure if this is possible or what, but Dracula was in a city that had a vampire encounter card on it. So when a hunter moved to that city, I ambushed him with the vampire.. but doesn't that mean the hunter would be fighting Dracula and the vampire at the same time (at dusk)?

How would combat with Dracula and a vampire be resolved? Or is there a rule preventing this?
 
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Jon Hook
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No, the encounter card vampires and Dracula fight at different times. The encounter card ambushes occur during the player's true "Day" or "Night" phase, not during the interim "Dawn" and "Dusk" phases. So, if one or more hunters are in a city with an encounter card vampire, and they have either forced Dracula's hand with a Search action, or the Dracula player has ambushed the hunters with that vampire, then that combat occurs then during the Hunter player's turn.

Then, during the next Dawn or Dusk, the hunters in that city with Dracula will fight him then. That way, the Dracula player is never trying to use the vampire combat deck of cards for more than one vampire at a time.

If the Dracula player was able to somehow add a second encounter card to a hideout, and has placed a second vampire in the same space, then I think the hunters must fight each one individually... I think. I've never had a hideout with more than one encounter card vampire.
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Greg
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Yes, I was under the impression that ALL combats took place at dawn/dusk, but it's actually only Dracula combats that do.

Thanks!
 
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Randal Divinski
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There is good reason for the confusion here. There are (at least) five rules references to fighting vampire encounters: (Fighting Vampires LTP-14, Ambush RR-3, Combat RR-4, Search RR-13, and Vampire Encounters RR-14). In every case, the vague phrase "combat occurs" is used.

Nowhere did I find it specified that the combat was immediate, during that hunter's turn. I am certain that is the case, but cannot find it specified in the rules or official FAQ. (Anyone?) I believe that the vague wording is because "immediately" needs the caveat that if the encounter is a New Vampire (only) then other hunters at the location can become delayed to join the combat (which still takes place during the ambushing/searching hunter's turn).

As far as multiple encounters go, that is clearly specified (See RR on Ambush or Search). Encounters trigger one at a time, in order of Dracula's choosing for Ambush, and of hunter's choosing for Search.
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Greg
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randiv wrote:
There is good reason for the confusion here. There are (at least) five rules references to fighting vampire encounters: (Fighting Vampires LTP-14, Ambush RR-3, Combat RR-4, Search RR-13, and Vampire Encounters RR-14). In every case, the vague phrase "combat occurs" is used.

Nowhere did I find it specified that the combat was immediate, during that hunter's turn. I am certain that is the case, but cannot find it specified in the rules or official FAQ. (Anyone?) I believe that the vague wording is because "immediately" needs the caveat that if the encounter is a New Vampire (only) then other hunters at the location can become delayed to join the combat (which still takes place during the ambushing/searching hunter's turn).

As far as multiple encounters go, that is clearly specified (See RR on Ambush or Search). Encounters trigger one at a time, in order of Dracula's choosing for Ambush, and of hunter's choosing for Search.


Yes, exactly. It doesn't say anywhere that combat starts immediately, and the way most games I've played work, combat always takes place in the same "phase". So it made sense to me that "combat occurs..." implied "...during the next combat phase".

Thanks for the additional clarification!
 
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Chris Merritt
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Actually, the wording in the RR is "starts a combat" which I do not find ambiguous or vague at all. It means you start combat. If you are starting something, the immediacy is implied.

In the RR under Combat is the following:

Quote:
If a hunter is on Dracula’s current location during dawn or dusk, he must start a combat with Dracula.
» If combat is at dusk or night, Dracula resolves the “at night” effects of his combat cards.
† If an encounter card instructs a hunter to “fight this vampire,” he starts a combat with that vampire.
† Combat with a vampire encounter can occur when either a hunter resolves a search action or Dracula ambushes a hunter.


So if a hunter is on Dracula's location during dawn or dusk, he must start a combat. The immediately is implied to me.

If an encounter card instructs a hunter to "fight this vampire," he starts a combat. No mention of waiting for dawn or dusk, just start combat.
 
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H-B-G
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randiv wrote:
There is good reason for the confusion here. There are (at least) five rules references to fighting vampire encounters: (Fighting Vampires LTP-14, Ambush RR-3, Combat RR-4, Search RR-13, and Vampire Encounters RR-14). In every case, the vague phrase "combat occurs" is used.

Nowhere did I find it specified that the combat was immediate, during that hunter's turn. I am certain that is the case, but cannot find it specified in the rules or official FAQ. (Anyone?) I believe that the vague wording is because "immediately" needs the caveat that if the encounter is a New Vampire (only) then other hunters at the location can become delayed to join the combat (which still takes place during the ambushing/searching hunter's turn).

As far as multiple encounters go, that is clearly specified (See RR on Ambush or Search). Encounters trigger one at a time, in order of Dracula's choosing for Ambush, and of hunter's choosing for Search.


According to the reference guide under Encounter Cards on page 7.

Quote:
All encounter cards have an effect, and some encounter cards have a matured effect.
» Dracula can resolve an encounter card’s effect when he ambushes a hunter.
» If a hunter performs a search action in a hideout or lair that has one or more encounter cards, Dracula must resolve an encounter card’s effect, ignoring the matured effect. If there are multiple encounter cards in that location, the hunters choose the order in which they are resolved.


The effect of New & Reckless Vampire is "The Hunter Fights this Vampire" and according to that section the resolution of that effect takes place when Dracula ambushes or a hunter searches.

In addition the combat section on page 4 states

Quote:
Combat with a vampire encounter can occur when either a hunter resolves a search action or Dracula ambushes a hunter


Note it says when the ambush or search takes place, it doesn't say at the next dawn/dusk.
 
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Randal Divinski
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COMaestro wrote:
Actually, the wording in the RR is "starts a combat" which I do not find ambiguous or vague at all. It means you start combat. If you are starting something, the immediacy is implied.
It's not "ambiguous or vague" just "implied"! I fully agree that your interpretation is correct, but I will re-assert that this is too important a game concept to be "implied." It really should be spelled out at least once somewhere.

They spelled out Dracula's combat as Dusk/Dawn. They could have spelled out that "Combat with encounter Vampires takes place immediately on the turn of the involved hunter (or, potentially, hunters if a New Vampire)." The whole point of a Rules Reference is to be precise and a place where players can go for ANSWERS not LOGIC PUZZLES.
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Chris Merritt
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randiv wrote:
COMaestro wrote:
Actually, the wording in the RR is "starts a combat" which I do not find ambiguous or vague at all. It means you start combat. If you are starting something, the immediacy is implied.
It's not "ambiguous or vague" just "implied"! I fully agree that your interpretation is correct, but I will re-assert that this is too important a game concept to be "implied." It really should be spelled out at least once somewhere.

They spelled out Dracula's combat as Dusk/Dawn. They could have spelled out that "Combat with encounter Vampires takes place immediately on the turn of the involved hunter (or, potentially, hunters if a New Vampire)." The whole point of a Rules Reference is to be precise and a place where players can go for ANSWERS not LOGIC PUZZLES.


And I think it is spelled out. When a vampire ambushes or is discovered through searching, you resolve the encounter, which says "The hunter fights this vampire." Not, "the hunter fights this vampire at the next dawn or dusk." If we need clarification of what "fight" means, we can look up combat in the RR where it says "start a combat" not "start a combat at the next dawn or dusk."

I will not deny that there are a number of clarifications that are needed in the rulebooks for this game, but if every single little thing needs to be spelled out to make sure people don't insert words and interpretations where there are none, the books would double in length and people would be complaining about the excessive repetition.
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Randal Divinski
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COMaestro wrote:
I will not deny that there are a number of clarifications that are needed in the rulebooks for this game, but if every single little thing needs to be spelled out to make sure people don't insert words and interpretations where there are none, the books would double in length and people would be complaining about the excessive repetition.
My understanding of the two rulebook system is that your principle should apply to the Learn To Play book, but not the Rules Reference. The RR should be as long and as redundant as it needs to be to answer questions. It is alphabetized and indexed and cross-referenced.

I am attempting to put this into practice, using Adobe Acrobat Pro to revise the rules to include answers to most questions posted to BGG. I'm adding text as new topics are posted, and will work my way backwards to older discussions. I hope to have something to circulate in a few months.

Changes/additions are marked, and I have annotated Comment balloons as well.
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Lars Lundstrøm
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Birkerød
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Hello

I'm really look forward to your release

I see you've have been around many of the complex questions, and therefore probably is sitting with a large knowledge about the game. If you can make a clear updated ref. manual, I can only say THANKS :-)

Best regards

Lars
 
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Randal Divinski
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Thanks for the encouragement. I am making incremental progress, using Adobe Acrobat on the PDFs of the LTP, RR, and Card Text (from BGG) files. Whenever a new rules question is posted, I add a Comment to the relevant rules section and in some cases insert or edit text to clarify. I've also been expanding the RR Index.

But there are a lot of old posts I haven't absorbed yet, and at some point I will have to sit down and make some choices about how best to change pop up notes into text choices.

So the project is still on, but slow moving.
 
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