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Subject: Industrialist embassy rss

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Annemarie Post
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When you refine goods with the Industrialist embassy in the production phase, is that considered as 1 action with regards to storage?

Or to rephrase that, do you have to have all the goods you want to refine with the Industrialist embassy in your storage at the time of refining? (Or can these goods also come from buffers?)
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Tim Puls
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No need to put the goods into the storage first. You can dirctly take the goods from a building.
As help: As long as the goods are not leaving the village they can be taken from everywhere. Some for sustenance. You can directly sustain from a hunting lodge for instance.
For paying fees, doing actions on the hex tiles etc. the goods are leaving the village. Thus have to come from the storage.
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François Mahieu
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wredo wrote:
No need to put the goods into the storage first. You can dirctly take the goods from a building.
As help: As long as the goods are not leaving the village they can be taken from everywhere. Some for sustenance. You can directly sustain from a hunting lodge for instance.
For paying fees, doing actions on the hex tiles etc. the goods are leaving the village. Thus have to come from the storage.


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Grzegorz Kobiela
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I'm afraid, Tim is probably remembering an older version of the rules since what he says is mostly true, just not in this case.

Rule book, page 11, Using Goods:

Quote:
Whenever you have to pay goods during an action (e.g., when building, refining goods, or paying the Fee), you must take
them from your Storage (i.e. Basic Storage and Storage Facilities).


Refining goods is an action and requires you take the goods from your storage. The Industrialist Colony lets you refine goods. Thus, you must have the input goods in your storage.

This actually goes hand in hand with Tim's neat thematic explanation of stuff being done within your community and outside. The Industrialist Colony refines the goods for you, so the input goods have to leave your community first to get there. Thus, they must come from your storage. (The ambassadors at the embassy can hardly be bothered with doing the refining for you. They're all lazy bureaucrats.)
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Annemarie Post
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So that means Sustenance is the only exception on the Storage rules?
 
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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Basically yes.
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Mr Avers
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Regarding the Industrialist Colony: In the appendix it states that at level two you can refine 1 wood + 2 clay into 1 bricks. Yet the colony card itself states that it requires 1 wood and 1 clay to refine into 1 bricks. We assumed that the colony card was correct, or should we follow the table in the appendix?
 
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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I'm afraid, the appendix is right on this one. Thanks for catching this.
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Mr Avers
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Ponton wrote:
I'm afraid, the appendix is right on this one. Thanks for catching this.
Ah, good to know. In our discussion during play, we did find that the more balanced version, so we were actually on the right track

Thank you for clarifying.
 
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Geppo Muzzak
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The question is: if I produce 8 wood and 3 clay but my colony right now has no stored goods, during the production phase can I produce 6 woods, 2 planks and 3 clay?

I think Grzegorz answered that in order for the industrialist to refine goods, you must end the year with the 2 woods to be refined in your storage. You can't use the wood you will produce during the production phase to turn it into planks.
(industrialist is EXTERNAL)

On the other hand, it seems the same concept applies to the cards, working the other way around.

The Keln allows you to refine wood and clay into brick.
Since this is INTERNAL to your colony (it's like you have the building) you can take 2 wood and 1 clay from the buffers when they are produced and refine them into a brick.

Am I correct?
 
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Annemarie Post
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In my understanding, the Industrialist embassy allows you to refine goods after you produce. So in your example, you would produce the 8 wood and 3 clay, and then you can decide to refine wood to planks. The wood that you want to use for the planks has to fit in your storage.

I would say that for cards you also need the goods you use in your storage.
 
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Tim Puls
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You can first produce the wood and the clay and afterwards use these new goods to produce the boards and bricks. Or you can chose the other way around. As you like.
 
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Geppo Muzzak
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It's not only a problem of storage here but of organizing your end year's turn phase.

If you can convert stuff you haven't produced yet (aka: you deduct the wood and produce the plank instead) you can use all your wood in your half year.

... but if you can only convert the wood you have at hand, you MUST save the wood you need to build the planks from your storage.

The industrialist card states this conversion happens in the production phase but it doesn't say whether the goods you use for the conversion must already be present OR you can use the ones produced by your buffers.

It makes sense that you must save wood and use that wood you have at hand to convert it in the production phase (as Greg said) because this wood would have to travel and eventually be exchanged at the industrialist colony with planks you'd be getting in return FROM THEM (and not from your buffers: in other words the colony is EXTERNAL as I said).

The Keln instead is your joiner. He is internal, part of your colony like an extra building without a worker. He would, following this logic, convert stuff internally (no need to ship goods back and forth) and could give you the bricks right away (you don't need to store clay and wood in your storage by the end of the winter).

Though I think this is how it should work, for practical reasons to treat these 2 things differently seems inconvenient so I would like some official clarification at this point on how to treat the "converters" (internal and external) in regards with the raw materials.

Let's make it in a nutshell:

Keln can take wood and clay from goods produced by the buffers during the production phase and give you a brick instead.

Industrialist can only convert goods you have in your storage (so you must save them in winter for this conversion to happen).

Correct, Greg/Tim?
 
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Grant
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GShock112 wrote:
Industrialist can only convert goods you have in your storage (so you must save them in winter for this conversion to happen).

Correct, Greg/Tim?

No.

You can do the Industrialist conversions with goods you just produced, as long as you have room in your storage to move them there before conversion. You can't convert directly from buffers, but you can produce, move to storage, then convert all in the same production phase.
 
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Donny Behne
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GShock112 wrote:
I would like some official clarification at this point on how to treat the "converters" (internal and external) in regards with the raw materials.


A) Time is the designer, he just confirmed for you.

B) There's no such thing as external/internal stuff. You're making that up all on your own.
 
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Grant
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kelann08 wrote:

B) There's no such thing as external/internal stuff. You're making that up all on your own.

To be fair, that's not true...

Ponton wrote:
Refining goods is an action and requires you take the goods from your storage. The Industrialist Colony lets you refine goods. Thus, you must have the input goods in your storage.

This actually goes hand in hand with Tim's neat thematic explanation of stuff being done within your community and outside. The Industrialist Colony refines the goods for you, so the input goods have to leave your community first to get there. Thus, they must come from your storage. (The ambassadors at the embassy can hardly be bothered with doing the refining for you. They're all lazy bureaucrats.)


Even though Tim kind of got one of the rules to his own game wrong, and Ponton had to correct him, the thematic idea of internal and external stuff was suggested and supported by them.
 
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Geppo Muzzak
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And this could be another opportunity for a variant, lol.

Ok, so let's take Tim's statement as the genuine interpretation of the rules. The production phase is done altogether so you may choose to produce then convert.
 
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Donny Behne
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grant5 wrote:
kelann08 wrote:

B) There's no such thing as external/internal stuff. You're making that up all on your own.

To be fair, that's not true...

Ponton wrote:
Refining goods is an action and requires you take the goods from your storage. The Industrialist Colony lets you refine goods. Thus, you must have the input goods in your storage.

This actually goes hand in hand with Tim's neat thematic explanation of stuff being done within your community and outside. The Industrialist Colony refines the goods for you, so the input goods have to leave your community first to get there. Thus, they must come from your storage. (The ambassadors at the embassy can hardly be bothered with doing the refining for you. They're all lazy bureaucrats.)


Even though Tim kind of got one of the rules to his own game wrong, and Ponton had to correct him, the thematic idea of internal and external stuff was suggested and supported by them.


Sure, but I meant from a rules perspective. Nothing in the rules discerns actions you can take as being defined as internal or external.
 
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Grant
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GShock112 wrote:
And this could be another opportunity for a variant, lol.

Ok, so let's take Tim's statement as the genuine interpretation of the rules. The production phase is done altogether so you may choose to produce then convert.

This did not require any interpretation, it is explicitly stated in the appendix.
 
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GShock112 wrote:
And this could be another opportunity for a variant, lol.


But why? To what end? To decrease fun and increase fiddle? Seems awful.
 
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Geppo Muzzak
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What about the Keln and other production buildings.
I suppose this follows the same rule, right?
 
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Grant
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GShock112 wrote:
What about the Keln and other production buildings.
I suppose this follows the same rule, right?

There is no building called the Keln, so I don't understand your question. Is that a translation thing maybe?

Also, which rule are you referring to? Several have been discussed in this thread.
 
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Geppo Muzzak
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It's the Kiln, sorry. (Card 215)
 
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GShock112 wrote:
It's the Kiln, sorry. (Card 215)

Ah, so you're talking about a card (aka improvement), not a building. Could you post a photo of it, or state what it does and what type of card it is (immediate, permanent, or limited), since most people probably don't have them all memorized?
 
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Geppo Muzzak
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Yes basically these are off-the-map buildings that's why I called it such but you're right it's an improvement card.

Kiln: infinite - 2tools 2 bricks.
Production phase: 2 clay -> 1 brick
(1x)

So the question was about "can i first produce the clay in the hollows and then convert it to bricks or do I have to have the clay in my storage for it to be converted".

If it works like the embassy it's easier from the "mechanical" standpoint.
 
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