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Band of Brothers: Texas Arrows» Forums » Rules

Subject: firing when marked opp fire rss

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Tim K
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I played about half of the Tiger Paw reworked ASL scenario last night. My buddy is a very seasoned ASL veteran. I previously showed him BoB's infantry rules. This was his first play with the armor rules.

He questioned that units with an opp fire marker can only fire at moving units. He thought they ought also to be able to fire at units that fire at them, even if they aren't moving.

I wonder what is Jim Krohn's intent behind the opp fire marker. Why are units marked opp fire unable to fire except at moving units?
 
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Niko
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htjester wrote:
I played about half of the Tiger Paw reworked ASL scenario last night. My buddy is a very seasoned ASL veteran. I previously showed him BoB's infantry rules. This was his first play with the armor rules.

He questioned that units with an opp fire marker can only fire at moving units. He thought they ought also to be able to fire at units that fire at them, even if they aren't moving.

I wonder what is Jim Krohn's intent behind the opp fire marker. Why are units marked opp fire unable to fire except at moving units? May units marked opp fire resort to Final Opp Fire before being marked Used?
Obviously I can't speak to Jim's intend behind the op fire marker, but what makes you want to resort to final op fire when marked op fire? Unless a unit is used it can op fire in any situation where it would get to final op fire and regular op fire is strictly better.
I.e. why incur a -2 penalty due to selecting final op fire when you can just regular op fire at the unit moving adjacent to you?
 
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Tim K
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That was a mistaken line of reasoning. We thought perhaps FOF enabled firing at the non-moving unit, but of course it's still opp fire. I edited my original post to delete this sentence.
 
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Russ Williams
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Unless a unit is used it can op fire in any situation where it would get to final op fire and regular op fire is strictly better.
I.e. why incur a -2 penalty due to selecting final op fire when you can just regular op fire at the unit moving adjacent to you?

If final op fire didn't remove the op fire marker, then you could want to use final op fire instead of op fire because you expected to op fire later in the round at a non-adjacent target.
 
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Aswin Agastya
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htjester wrote:
I played about half of the Tiger Paw reworked ASL scenario last night. My buddy is a very seasoned ASL veteran. I previously showed him BoB's infantry rules. This was his first play with the armor rules.

He questioned that units with an opp fire marker can only fire at moving units. He thought they ought also to be able to fire at units that fire at them, even if they aren't moving.

I wonder what is Jim Krohn's intent behind the opp fire marker. Why are units marked opp fire unable to fire except at moving units?


In that situation, it seems that the units marked with opp fire already had LoS to the firing unit, and then decided NOT to fire at it?

When the unit fires, it's already too late?

Also that in tactical wargame is pretty short of time, and when the unit with opp fire marker decided to actually fire, can do so in the next turn?
 
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htjester wrote:
I played about half of the Tiger Paw reworked ASL scenario last night. My buddy is a very seasoned ASL veteran. I previously showed him BoB's infantry rules. This was his first play with the armor rules.

He questioned that units with an opp fire marker can only fire at moving units. He thought they ought also to be able to fire at units that fire at them, even if they aren't moving.

I wonder what is Jim Krohn's intent behind the opp fire marker. Why are units marked opp fire unable to fire except at moving units?


It's a good question, but I'm wondering the use case. If you wanted to fire at a unit, why not fire instead of marking with op fire?

Perhaps you were "biding your time" with that unit to retain flexibility on what to do later. In that case, it kind of makes sense to allow op fire after the other team fires. Except that the actions are really simultaneous in some sense, so what op fire means is waiting for them to move. Instead they were firing the whole time.

If the target unit was assault firing, then allowing op fire after firing might make sense.

I'd love to hear what Jim has to say.
 
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Quote:
I wonder what is Jim Krohn's intent behind the opp fire marker. Why are units marked opp fire unable to fire except at moving units?


The ability to mark a unit as Op Fire is necessary in order to save a unit for later. Without it, the defender might be put into a position where he used up all his units and then could not defend well against a rush.

However, it has to be limited. If a unit marked Op Fire could later fire at any unit, then the proper course of action in many defensive situations would be to always mark all your units Op Fire, force the attacker to use up all his units and then decide what to shoot at later.

The way the rule is written now, it forces the defender to make a decision on whether to try to limit the attacking firepower by winning the firefight and suppressing attackers or to save and shoot only at a rush/maintain concealment as long as possible.

The situation in the game and the quality of troops involved means the decision will not always be clear cut.
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Tim K
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Thanks, Jim. To be clear, I haven't found a situation involving infantry where I questioned the opp fire marker rules. The Tiger Paw scenario the other day though made me realize that in armor engagements when one side is significantly outnumbered their incentive is to fire to be certain of getting off at least one shot. If the outnumbered side marks his tank opp fire he may not get off a shot.

It seems to me there could be situations where the attacker gamey-ly waits out the defender and gains an additional advantage. That would be disappointing. One of the things I really like about BoB is the work you've clearly done to address potentially gamey play. If I am correct this would be the first gamey situation I've encountered in BoB.
 
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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The Tiger Paw scenario the other day though made me realize that in armor engagements when one side is significantly outnumbered their incentive is to fire to be certain of getting off at least one shot. If the outnumbered side marks his tank opp fire he may not get off a shot.


And even when not outnumbered. This is intentional. It is a little different with armor than infantry, but I wanted this to definitely come across with armor. Rare is it that a tank will pass up a shot when in a tank v tank engagement (unless it is to change positions to gain a move counter).

Quote:
It seems to me there could be situations where the attacker gamey-ly waits out the defender and gains an additional advantage. That would be disappointing. One of the things I really like about BoB is the work you've clearly done to address potentially gamey play. If I am correct this would be the first gamey situation I've encountered in BoB.


This also is an intentional part of the Ops Range:

A high top number on your Ops Range allows you to front load attacks, have your (especially armor) get off shots before being suppressed or destroyed, better take advantage of opportunities that present themselves mid turn, etc.

A low bottom number on your Ops Range allows you to force the other side to commit forces before you. If you wish, it allows you to better dictate the flow of the battle and can either limit a defense or make an attacker more open to counter attack.

Both of the above advantages were intentional representations of a side's command. It is not just Command Points, but Ops Range which abstractly represent a force's quality of leadership.

To mitigate those advantages being used against you, you have the Op Fire counter. That prevents them from waiting you out so that you can't fire.

The Op Fire counter is a HUGE part of the game - not because of the FP bonus it gives you in Op Fire (although that is nice), but because it preserves a unit's shot.
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