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1846: The Race for the Midwest» Forums » Rules

Subject: Private Distribution rss

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I don't understand the second paragraph of 3.21 GMT Rules:

Quote:
After the number of remaining cards is less than the number of
players plus two, each player in turn selects one card from all
of them. Continue until either a player draws all blanks, ending
the distribution, or the deck consists of no blank cards and one
Private Company.


Does it go to a draft at this point? Or are we selecting the top card... and if that, how does a player "draw all blanks"?
 
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Pete Goch
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pilotbob wrote:
I don't understand the second paragraph of 3.21 GMT Rules:

Quote:
After the number of remaining cards is less than the number of
players plus two, each player in turn selects one card from all
of them
. Continue until either a player draws all blanks, ending
the distribution, or the deck consists of no blank cards and one
Private Company.


Does it go to a draft at this point? Or are we selecting the top card... and if that, how does a player "draw all blanks"?


Once the total number of cards left is P+2 you select one from all of the remaining cards. If all remaining cards are blank the draft is over. If there is only one card left and it is not blank then the player who "drew" it may purchase it at face value. If he refuses the next player may purchase it at face -$10 and so on until it reaches $0 at which point that player must take the private for free.
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Travis Dean
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That is confusingly written.

But essentially yes, it's a draft of the remaining cards.

From the start, you are 'drafting', but you only have (# of players + 2) cards to draft from each time you choose a card. When there are no more than (# of players +2) cards left, then you continue drafting with all options available to you.

Continue until either all cards remaining are blank, in which case you're done, or there is only one card left and that card is a private. In which case continue to rule 3.22 where the current player can draft it like normal, or else it starts getting cheaper as it is passed on to the next player.
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Tom Lehmann
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pilotbob wrote:

Quote:
After the number of remaining cards is less than the number of
players plus two, each player in turn selects one card from all
of them. Continue until either a player draws all blanks, ending
the distribution, or the deck consists of no blank cards and one
Private Company.


Does it go to a draft at this point?

It's been a draft all along; only now you are drawing all the remaining cards, not #players +2 of them.

Quote:
Or are we selecting the top card...

No. The rules clearly say "selects one card from *all of them*". (emphasis added)

Do that. Put all the cards in your hand, check to see if they are either all blank or just one company, and -- if not -- select one of them and pass the rest.
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Chris Laudermilk
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Ah, so once the draw "deck" is P+2 cards, you simply take the entire pile to choose from. Once that pile has no privates, or the only card left is a private, then the draft is done. If there is the one private left it then goes into the discounting phase.

Is that correct? I've been muddling over it myself.

The privates distribution seems to always be the most confusing part of any 18XX to grasp.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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claudermilk wrote:
Ah, so once the draw "deck" is P+2 cards, you simply take the entire pile to choose from.

Correct. (first sentence of this paragraph)

Quote:
Once that pile has no privates, or the only card left is a private, then the draft is done.

Correct. (second sentence of this paragraph)

Quote:
If there is the one private left it then goes into the discounting phase.

Almost correct; if the one private left *isn't bought by this player at full price*, then it goes to the discounting phase. (first sentence of 3.22)
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
pilotbob wrote:

Quote:
After the number of remaining cards is less than the number of
players plus two, each player in turn selects one card from all
of them. Continue until either a player draws all blanks, ending
the distribution, or the deck consists of no blank cards and one
Private Company.


Does it go to a draft at this point?

It's been a draft all along; only now you are drawing all the remaining cards, not #players +2 of them.


Well, if it was a draft all along that would mean that I pick up P+2, chose one and pass the remaining to the right. At least, that's my concept of a draft.

But, I got it now, thanks for the replies. Also, I didn't realize there was a play through example later in the rules.
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Tom Lehmann
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pilotbob wrote:
Quote:
It's been a draft all along; only now you are drawing all the remaining cards, not #players +2 of them.

Well, if it was a draft all along that would mean that I pick up P+2, chose one and pass the remaining to the right. At least, that's my concept of a draft.

There are many types of drafts. By your definition, what's been going on before would not be a "draft" because -- instead of passing the remaining cards on -- the remaining cards have been shuffled and added to the bottom of the deck, where the next player then draws P+2 of them (containing a mixture of cards returned from previous players).

Once the deck gets small enough (P+2), this shuffle and return to the bottom step is omitted, and then the draft becomes "pure".
 
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Eric Brosius
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For a more detailed example, suppose that there are 5 players, so that all 10 private companies and the 5 player order cards are in the deck, making a total of 15 cards that are shuffled.

The first player to draft (the one to the right of the player with the Priority Deal marker) takes the top 7 of those 15 cards and looks at them all. He or she then keeps one of the 7 cards, shuffles the remaining 6, puts them on the bottom of the deck, and passes them to the right. The player to the right takes the top 7 of the now 14 cards and looks at them all. He or she then keeps one of the 7 cards, shuffles the remaining 6, puts them on the bottom of the deck, and passes them to the right. Each time a player gets a chance to draft, he or she keeps a card, and the size of the deck is reduced by 1.

At some point, a player will get a deck of 7 cards. At that point, he or she takes all 7 cards, looks at them all, and keeps one, leaving only 6 left, and passes them to the right (at this point, shuffling is clearly no longer necessary.) If you count, you will find that the player who receives 6 cards is always the Priority Deal player. He or she looks at all 6 cards, keeps one, and passes the remaining 5 to the right. If all 5 of these cards are player order cards, the draft is over, but if at least 1 is a private company, you keep the process going (with the deck getting smaller and smaller) until either (1) there is nothing left but player order cards (in which case the draft is over, or (2) there is only one card left and it is a private company.

In case (2), the player who gets it can either buy it or pass it to the right with the price reduced by $10. This continues until someone takes it (and if the price goes down to $0, the player must take it.)
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Oh, finished reading the rules, and one thing I'm not clear on, what is the debt? That is just extra you have to pay for the private right? You never get that back nor does it affect the rest of the game?
 
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Tom Lehmann
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pilotbob wrote:
Oh, finished reading the rules, and one thing I'm not clear on, what is the debt? That is just extra you have to pay for [an Independent Railroad] right? You never get that back nor does it affect the rest of the game?

Correct. As noted in the glossary: "Debt: amount paid for an Independent Railroad that goes to the bank."
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Glenn Martin
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
If he refuses the next player may purchase it at face -$10 and so on until it reaches $0 at which point that player must take the private for free.


Yes. Don't keep going.
 
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Ilkka Virta
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fluffyevil wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
If he refuses the next player may purchase it at face -$10 and so on until it reaches $0 at which point that player must take the private for free.


Yes. Don't keep going.


I do wonder what the situation would be where someone would want to avoid taking a private, even for free.
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Chris Laudermilk
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Same here. It seems there is nothing to lose and at least something to gain for a free private. But I'm nowhere near an 18xx expert--heck I barely qualify as a novice.

Thanks Tom and the others who have provided answers. Now the process is very clear. I have to say, just from reading the rules & this thread, 1846 removes the one mechanism I have misgivings about--I'm not a big fan of auctions.
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itvirta wrote:
fluffyevil wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
If he refuses the next player may purchase it at face -$10 and so on until it reaches $0 at which point that player must take the private for free.


Yes. Don't keep going.


I do wonder what the situation would be where someone would want to avoid taking a private, even for free.


I would imagine wanting priority deal over a free private, though that's more true for another 18xx than it is for 1846 since priority deal doesn't change during the private draft. It's at least a way to guarantee progress in the game rather than a potential eternal pass on all privates.
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Glenn Martin
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It's from a joke post where I pointed out that in the prototype two-player rules if players passed a mere 700 times you would RECEIVE $700 which would break the bank and the game.

Unfortunately people discussed it seriously.
 
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Chris Montgomery
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itvirta wrote:
fluffyevil wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
If he refuses the next player may purchase it at face -$10 and so on until it reaches $0 at which point that player must take the private for free.


Yes. Don't keep going.


I do wonder what the situation would be where someone would want to avoid taking a private, even for free.


I could imagine a situation in which you had a very specific set of privates already and a very specific plan, for which you needed a very specific amount of your starting capital, and therefore refusing the private because it would push you below your capitalization needs.

But that would be a very sly, clever, and experienced player in a very particular situation.
 
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cmontgo2 wrote:
itvirta wrote:
fluffyevil wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
If he refuses the next player may purchase it at face -$10 and so on until it reaches $0 at which point that player must take the private for free.


Yes. Don't keep going.


I do wonder what the situation would be where someone would want to avoid taking a private, even for free.


I could imagine a situation in which you had a very specific set of privates already and a very specific plan, for which you needed a very specific amount of your starting capital, and therefore refusing the private because it would push you below your capitalization needs.


But if it were free, it would cost you nothing to take. It would only produce money for you, and you aren't forced to use that money if you don't want to. Feel free to set it aside until end-game scoring or forced train purchase!
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Chris Montgomery
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If free, then it does make little sense not to take it -- I was obviously speaking of a situation where the private would cost you money. But it should be very rare, I would think, that the private even gets to the point where the price begins to go down -- rather, the rules have to provide an eventuality that will probably never happen. Otherwise, people would be asking, right?
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Glenn Martin
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When it reaches $0 you HAVE to take it.
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Tom Lehmann
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Depending on group think, it is not unusual for one company's price to go down by $10-30 before being taken. I put an example of this in the sample turns. It's very rare for a Private to get passed when its price is $30 below list.

In some cases, a private company gets discounted simply because several players already have a plan for their cash. In other cases, some groups believe a particular private is slightly over-priced, although there is some disagreement about which private is it (the MS and Mail Contract are the two most common suspects, though I've also seen the Tunnel Blasting Co and C&WI discounted).

In general, the Privates are quite good deals. Thus, it is very rare for all the blanks to be taken and have more than one private company left, so that a player is forced to take one. I put the price reduction mechanism in so that a group can disagree about any one of these privates' prices and have the game automatically adjust to this.
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J C Lawrence
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It became quite common in our games for all the numbers to be taken first, and there would be an audible grown when a player got an early hand which contained no numbers...
 
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Tom Lehmann
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JC, your group's approach to many 18xx games is unusual enough that it probably qualifies as "very rare". ;-)
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J C Lawrence
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It grew as people started getting stuck taking a private they didn't want. Taking all the numbers first made that much less likely. It wasn't that the privates are bad deals, as you say they're quite good deals, but one or two players taking numbers first can put pretty extreme pressure on the other players as they start facing hands full of privates they don't want (as they already have enough) but must take something...

Or in short: taking all numbers can so damage the positions of the early private takers who are forced to take too many as to give a noticeable advantage to the no-private players. Sure, taking that private would be good for me, but making you take a 4th private that you really don't want -- that's even better for me.
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Tom Lehmann
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clearclaw wrote:
making you take a 4th private that you really don't want -- that's even better for me.

How is this possible?

There are 3*N items being distributed, one at a time, to N pockets, where each player *must* take one item, except for the very last item, which is either optional or free.

3 players, 6 Privates, 3 blanks:

CBA
Pbb
PbP
PPr

4 players, 8 Privates, 4 blanks:

DCBA
Pbbb
PbPP
PPPr

5 players, 10 Privates, 5 blanks:

EDCBA
Pbbbb
PbPPP
PPPPr

No one is being forced to take a 4th Private in any of these cases (except possibly for $0 depending on how the cost reduction plays out).

Above, A is the priority player with B, C... seated clockwise from A.
P: they take a Private; b: they take a blank; r: price reduction starts if passed

The player being "stuck", the last player in these scenarios, is getting tremendous choice in Private Companies. Their *3rd* choice is of N remaining Privates (where N is the number of players); their first two choices were probably even better (depending on how many blanks they drew)!

I'd *love* to be in last position versus this group-think. There are plenty of good 3 private combos in 1846 and I'd be odds on to construct one of them.
 
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