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Subject: Brutal attacks at the end of an act rss

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Giacomo Fusetti
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Hello.
I don't understand how the "all the remaining locations in the peeking sleeves are attacked" thing at the end of each act works.
I mean, I suppose the only way to survive in this case is to have a working hiding place token. But even in this case, if I follow the rules, I get scared and move to an adjacent location, which eventually will be attacked (since Klein is attacking all the remaining locations).

I'm surely missing something here...

Thank for the help!
 
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Greg Toystorian
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There are 3 ways to survive the final attack in an Act.
1. You can declare Klein’s lair before the final attack. Correctly declaring the lair immediately ends the Act and all remaining players survive to the next Act.
2. You can be holding a relevant hiding place when the final attack occurs.
3. You can survive if you are on the location that is Klein’s lair, since the location in the Lair sleeve is not attacked in that Act.

Here is some information we have given other players to help survive…
This is a complex deduction puzzle. This isn’t deduction by crossing off viewed items or locations from a list as in Cluedo. You must deduce or induce information based on other Player’s actions or inactions. Similar to the following Prisoner’s Puzzle:

The Prisoner’s Puzzle

Three Inmates are taken to see the Prison Warden. The Warden explains there isn’t enough room in the prison to hold all the prisoners. So they are going to play a little game. The prisoners watch as the Warden places 2 black and 3 white disks into a bag. The Warden then turns the prisoners around, blindfolds them, and tapes a random disk to each of their backs. He explains the rules: The object of the game is to guess the color of the disk on your back. The first prisoner to correctly guess their color will be released immediately. An incorrect guess will result in execution. Once any prisoner has made a guess the other 2 prisoners will be sent back to their cells to serve out the remainder of their sentence. No communication is to take place between the prisoners.

The prisoners blindfolds are removed and they are allowed to walk around the room silently, observing the disks on the back of the other two prisoners. One prisoner, John, is able to see that the other two prisoners both have white disks on their backs. After 30 minutes of silence, John announces the color of his disk. He is escorted out of the room, and released from prison.

So how did John figure out his color?

It is easiest to explain by removing the possibility of John having a black disk. Imagine that John had a black disk on his back. What would the other prisoners think about if he did? The other prisoners would see the black disk and think “I can’t have a black disk, because if I did then the third prisoner would see the two black disks, and be certain that his was white. As there were only 2 black disks. Therefore, the other prisoners would know they have a white disk. Since nobody has said anything, there isn’t a black disk on anyones back, including Johns, so he must have a white disk!

The lack of action becomes the telling action that the prisoner, John, can deduce he has a white disk on his back.

This is similar to the deduction by action or inaction in Crimson Creek. If the first few players peek at a location in a peeking sleeve, those players undoubtedly know a safe place to move to. Either the sleeve they viewed is the one chosen by the Reveal card as containing the attack location and they know exactly where the attack will occur and know not to be there, or they have seen a location that won’t be attacked at that moment and now know a safe place to move for that attack. Since all Players need to stay alive in order to win, if a Player is chased to a location they must have knowledge that location is safe. Therefore that location is safe for a Player without information to follow them there. If you were in a Slasher film and one of your friends ran past you screaming, you wouldn’t just stand there, you would follow them because they obviously know something you don't and you would be chased to a safe location.

Although this is a semi-cooperative game, the beginning of the game is purely cooperative. No one knows yet if they are the killer/traitor, and everyone is trying to survive to stay in the game. Because everyone needs to survive to win, you can trust the actions of players who have viewed locations in Peeking sleeves. Early players taking selfish actions to protect themselves from elimination such as grabbing a hiding place, or not being chased and relaying information to others in order to stay calm, will not only cause them to eventually lose, but the group as a whole to lose. The players that go first have to think “There’s a killer about to attack. We have to alert our friends so they aren’t eliminated!” And one of the ways you can alert your friends is by leading them where to go, with the knowledge you have acquired earlier, by being chased or staying put as an attack begins.

No one will have enough information to solve the puzzle before the first attack occurs but working cooperatively everyone has enough information to survive. And by the third attack in an Act at least one player, if the puzzle is played properly, will have enough information to deduce the lair. There is no luck in this game. The puzzle is always solvable, surviving it is not based at all on luck. There is one scenario in a 3 or 4 player game where a third or fourth player will not have an action turn before an attack, although everyone has a chance to be chased before the attack occurs, in this case their chase turn won’t make a difference because the safe locations are at least 2 spaces away and the player then has a possibility of being eliminated without any recourse. This possibility of uncontrollable elimination happens one time every 2800 games. The other 2799 games all have solvable puzzles. If you fail it is not because of bad luck, it is because you didn’t play cooperatively and efficiently to solve the puzzle.

If you have Players eliminated in the first Act you haven’t come close to understanding how to solve this puzzle and should realize it is more complex than you first thought. Because there is no bad luck in this game, only bad playing. Hope that helps.

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Giacomo Fusetti
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TheToystoryian wrote:

If you have Players eliminated in the first Act you haven’t come close to understanding how to solve this puzzle and should realize it is more complex than you first thought. Because there is no bad luck in this game, only bad playing. Hope that helps.


Hello Greg, thanks for the amazing reply. It was surely helpful, because at first sight the game looked to me very difficult to solve. Good to know that there's so much space for possible solutions.
Anyway, I feel a little ashamed to say that still I haven't properly understood what happens, step by step, when Klein attacks all the remaining location at the end of each act.
 
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Rod Bauer
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lexpweller wrote:
Hello.
. . I suppose the only way to survive in this case is to have a working hiding place token. But even in this case, if I follow the rules, I get scared and move to an adjacent location, which eventually will be attacked (since Klein is attacking all the remaining locations).

I'm surely missing something here...

Thank for the help!


Although it seems not to be explained in the rules, apparently after the third attack, when Klein goes on his killing binge of attacking all other locations other than his Lair, a hiding player automatically survives without having to relocate to another location. The character however will have to start the next Act in a scared condition.
 
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Rod Bauer
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TheToystoryian wrote:
If you were in a Slasher film and one of your friends ran past you screaming, you wouldn’t just stand there, you would follow them because they obviously know something you don't and you would be chased to a safe location.



Yes. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs5FWIUqu20
 
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Barry Miller
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rod3556lhs wrote:
Although it seems not to be explained in the rules, apparently after the third attack, when Klein goes on his killing binge of attacking all other locations other than his Lair, a hiding player automatically survives without having to relocate to another location. The character however will have to start the next Act in a scared condition.

Actually, all of this is in the rulebook...

About hiding players automatically surviving an attack:
From page 22: "Any characters at the attack location are killed and eliminated from the game unless they have a valid hiding place for that location..."

About having to start the next Act in a scared condition:
From page 14: "Only when a character survives the final scene of an Act by successfully hiding, do you begin the opening scene of a new Act scared..."

Hope this helps!

 
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Davy Ashleydale
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I think part of the confusion has to do with how to handle Hiding when all of the non-Lair locations are attacked after the third Klein attack in a round. Do successfully Hiding players have to move to an adjacent location at that point? My guess is they don't.

Here's how I think it goes:

The third Klein attack has just been triggered. The card is revealed to show which envelope the attacked location is in. Now all of the players get a chance to be chased, if they wish.

We reveal the attacked location and kill anyone there that isn't hiding. If someone is hiding, they become scared and have to move to an adjacent location. If there is no available adjacent location, they are killed.

Now, ALL of the remaining envelopes are going to be revealed and attacked, leaving only the Lair. Anyone at those locations that is not successfully hiding will be killed. In fact, if someone successfully hid after the third attack, they can only survive if the adjacent location they chose to move to is Klein's Lair.

At this point, we just reveal all the cards in the remaining non-Lair envelopes simultaneously because you can't choose to be chased anymore in this Act. Anyone on those locations is killed unless they successfully hide.

Now what I believe is that those people that successfully hid during this final "attack everything but the Lair" phase are okay and can move on to the next Act. I don't think they need to find an adjacent location to run to after they hide. I think this is the one time when they don't need to do that. They're still going to be scared, and will start the next Act scared, though.

BTW, this is definitely a situation to avoid if possible. It's not good.
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Rod Bauer
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bgm1961 wrote:

rod3556lhs wrote:
Although it seems not to be explained in the rules, apparently after the third attack, when Klein goes on his killing binge of attacking all other locations other than his Lair, a hiding player automatically survives without having to relocate to another location. The character however will have to start the next Act in a scared condition.

Actually, all of this is in the rulebook...

About hiding players automatically surviving an attack:
From page 22: "Any characters at the attack location are killed and eliminated from the game unless they have a valid hiding place for that location..."

About having to start the next Act in a scared condition:
From page 14: "Only when a character survives the final scene of an Act by successfully hiding, do you begin the opening scene of a new Act scared..."

Hope this helps!


You are correct about what is says on page 22 Barry. The point I was making that it is not explained very clearly within the rules. On page 14 it states: "After successfully hiding, flip over the character token to scared and place the scared character token on an available adjacent location." I believe that is what caused confusion or uncertainty on how it worked.
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Barry Miller
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Ah, OK... both of you present good meat for the conversation. I get now, where you're coming from regarding the question!



 
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Giacomo Fusetti
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Thanks everybody for the replies. I suppose this needs an official FAQ or a reply from the creators. For now I will go on with the "hiding without moving" idea when Klein attacks all the remaining locations.
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Barry Miller
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I think I may've found the relevant portion of the rules that addresses this...

Page 14 says:
"If there are no available adjacent locations to move to, your hiding place is discovered by Klein and your character is killed and eliminated from the game."

So the way I interpret this is, as Klein makes his final mass attack at the end of an Act, each location he attacks becomes unavailable. So if you're hiding in a location that's part of the mass attack, and all the adjacent locations to you are ones that he also just (or previously) attacked, then you die.

The only way to escape (other than being at his Lair of course) is if his Lair is adjacent to your hiding location. Then per the rule you guys quoted above, you can move to his Lair location as it's still available.

Bottom Line: If you're either at Klein's Lair, or are hiding adjacent to his Lair, then you ARE SAFE! Otherwise, you die (again, as a result of the mass attack).

That's how I interpret page 14, anyway!



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Davy Ashleydale
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I see what you're saying, but I still think that's too restrictive. If there are already two people at the Lair, then it's not "available" because it's full. So under that rule, you would still die even if you were hiding at a Location that is adjacent to Klein's Lair.

I still think that that rule on Page 14 is just for normal Klein attacks, not the "mega attack" at the end of an Act. Because if it is true, then only two players could survive it -- the two people on Klein's Lair. And I don't think that's the intent.
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Rod Bauer
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bgm1961 wrote:

I think I may've found the relevant portion of the rules that addresses this...

Page 14 says:
"If there are no available adjacent locations to move to, your hiding place is discovered by Klein and your character is killed and eliminated from the game."

So the way I interpret this is, as Klein makes his final mass attack at the end of an Act, each location he attacks becomes unavailable. So if you're hiding in a location that's part of the mass attack, and all the adjacent locations to you are ones that he also just (or previously) attacked, then you die.

The only way to escape (other than being at his Lair of course) is if his Lair is adjacent to your hiding location. Then per the rule you guys quoted above, you can move to his Lair location as it's still available.

Bottom Line: If you're either at Klein's Lair, or are hiding adjacent to his Lair, then you ARE SAFE! Otherwise, you die (again, as a result of the mass attack).

That's how I interpret page 14, anyway!




Don't forget Barry that only two characters can occupy a single location at one time. So for your interpretation to be correct,there can only be two survivors at the end of the brutal attack (those in the lair). Yet, in a different thread Toystorian (one of the designers of the game)has stated: "In a 6 player game at most 5 players can survive into the 2nd Act if you do not discover the Lair. 3 players can survive in hiding places and 2 can finish the Act on Klein's lair."
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Barry Miller
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Yeah, I forgot to factor-in the max two-character limit. Good catch by both of you.

And Rod, that comment you quoted by Greg, when combined with the rule I cited above certainly does illustrate the essence of the confusion!

I'm sure Greg will pop-in and clear it all up!

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Greg Toystorian
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Correct. The rule is meant to be if you survive the third Klein attack using a hiding place you stay hidden until the next Act begins. When the next Act begins you resolve the hiding action. If the location you hid in for the previous Act is no longer available you can place your character token on any available location.
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Davy Ashleydale
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TheToystoryian wrote:
Correct. The rule is meant to be if you survive the third Klein attack using a hiding place you stay hidden until the next Act begins. When the next Act begins you resolve the hiding action. If the location you hid in for the previous Act is no longer available you can place your character token on any available location.


Just to clarify, though, the rules seem to indicate that the 3rd Klein attack happens in the same way as the first two, but then after it is resolved, Klein attacks the remaining non-Lair locations. So, if someone is hiding during the 3rd Klein attack, they get scared and they have to move to an available adjacent location or be killed. And then, the "mega attack" is resolved, and if someone is hiding during that, they still get scared, but they don't have to move to an adjacent location until the beginning of the next Act.

Is that right?

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Barry Miller
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TheToystoryian wrote:
Correct. The rule is meant to be if you survive the third Klein attack using a hiding place you stay hidden until the next Act begins. When the next Act begins you resolve the hiding action. If the location you hid in for the previous Act is no longer available you can place your character token on any available location.

Sounds like we have a winning candidate for an official FAQ item!
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Greg Toystorian
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The hiding action during the third attack isn't resolved until the start of the next Act.

After everyone has had a chance to be chased before the 3rd attack begins all the remaining locations are attacked at once. So if you are successfully hiding during the 3rd attack you are safe for the remainder of the Act and begin the next Act scared.
 
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Barry Miller
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TheToystoryian wrote:
The hiding action during the third attack isn't resolved until the start of the next Act.

OK, I'll take the liberty to say that the confusion is because the way the rulebook reads, there's a "mass" or "mega" (i.e., fourth) attack, after the third attack. And it's the disposition of hidden characters between these two attacks is where the confusion lays.

The wording on page 22 is very specific... it says, "after the third Klein attack is resolved, the remaining locations...are attacked." (bold is mine)

The construction of that sentence can only be interpreted that there's a fourth attack, which is why your comment quoted above is causing some confusion, I think.

On a side note, other than the above, I'm impressed with how the rulebook is written. It really does provide more clarity than the average rulebook for this type of game!

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Davy Ashleydale
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TheToystoryian wrote:
The hiding action during the third attack isn't resolved until the start of the next Act.

After everyone has had a chance to be chased before the 3rd attack begins all the remaining locations are attacked at once. So if you are successfully hiding during the 3rd attack you are safe for the remainder of the Act and begin the next Act scared.


That seems a little different that what I understood it to be. I thought this was the sequence of events:

1. Axe card revealed that indicates the beginning of the 3rd Klein attack.
2. Card revealed that shows which envelope contains the 3rd attack location.
3. Everyone gets a chance to be chased, in counter clockwise order.
4. Attack location is revealed.
5. Everyone at that attack location dies unless they successfully use a hiding place.
6. If someone used a hiding place, they become scared and must move to an adjacent location. If they can't, they die.
7. All other non-Lair envelopes are revealed. (No more chance to be chased at this point.)
8. Everyone on any of those locations dies unless they are successfully hiding.
9. If someone successfully hides, they do not need to move to an adjacent location yet.
10. Set up for the next Act. Anyone that successfully hid in Step 9 has to become Scared and move to an adjacent location.

Greg, your comment above sounds like in my Step 6, if someone hides, they don't need to move to an adjacent location yet, which I would be surprised to learn.
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Greg Toystorian
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Barry is correct and we will update the wording to make this less confusing. If you successfully hide during the third attack you remain hidden until the beginning of the next Act. In other words a character successfully hiding during the third attack does not stop hiding until the massacre is over.
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Barry Miller
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TheToystoryian wrote:
...does not stop hiding until the massacre is over.

Ah, "massacre"! That's the word I was struggling to find in my post just above, instead of using "mass" or "mega". That sounds much more apropos.

So yeah, there's the 3rd attack, then comes the massacre attack!

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Davy Ashleydale
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TheToystoryian wrote:
Barry is correct and we will update the wording to make this less confusing. If you successfully hide during the third attack you remain hidden until the beginning of the next Act. In other words a character successfully hiding during the third attack does not stop hiding until the massacre is over.


Okay, so that means we should play it like this?:

1. Axe card revealed that indicates the beginning of the 3rd Klein attack.
2. Card revealed that shows which envelope contains the 3rd attack location.
3. Everyone gets a chance to be chased, in counter clockwise order.
4. All non-Lair envelopes are revealed.
5. Everyone on any of those locations dies unless they are successfully hiding.
6. If someone successfully hides, they do not need to move to an adjacent location yet.
7. Set up for the next Act. Anyone that successfully hid has to become Scared and move to an adjacent location.
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Greg Toystorian
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@Davy Exactly!
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Barry Miller
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OK, so the essential take-away is that the 3rd Attack is not resolved the same as Attacks 1 and 2.
The difference between resolving Attacks 1 & 2, and resolving Attack 3, is with steps #4 #6 from Davy's list, immediately above.

I.e., there is no 4th attack (or massacre, if you will). There's simply a third attack, except its resolved a little differently than normal. And also the third attack marks the end of the Act which adds to why it's resolved differently.

So it sounds like Greg, that this is the fix that needs to be made to the rulebook - to make this clear?

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