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The Horus Heresy: Burning of Prospero» Forums » Rules

Subject: What weaponry to pick rss

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Marco Tonino
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If you unpack the game and put everything together, you're already in a position of making some choices that affect how you'll end up playing the game. After all, a Terminator with lightning claws is different than a ranged version.

So, here's how I put it together, using GW promo photos which I guess is as good a guide as any. Hope this helps someone.

The Enlightened (Thousand Sons)
Veteran squad - Sergeant with power weapon and plasma pistol, marine with plasma gun, marine with heavy bolter, marine with banner (forgot the fancy name)

Veteran squad - Sergeant with thunderhamer bolt pistol, marine with melta gun, marine with heavy bolter, marine with banner

Terminators - Sergeant with power weapon and plasma pistol, 2 Terminators with lightning claws, 1 Terminator with heavy flamer (autocannon is similar in gameplay to heavy bolter) and harnass grenades, 1 Terminator with bolter

The Barbarians (Space Wolves)
Veteran squad - Sergeant with lightning claw and plasma pistol, marine with plasma gun, marine with heavy bolter, marine with banner

Sisters of Silence - Sergeant with sword, 2 other sisters with swords, 1 sister with flamer and 1 sisters with bolter

Custodians - Not sure yet, I hope to convert the sergeant to have an halberd.

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Kevin Outlaw
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Tonijn wrote:
If you unpack the game and put everything together, you're already in a position of making some choices that affect how you'll end up playing the game. After all, a Terminator with lightning claws is different than a ranged version.

So, here's how I put it together, using GW promo photos which I guess is as good a guide as any. Hope this helps someone.

The Enlightened (Thousand Sons)
Veteran squad - Sergeant with power weapon and plasma pistol, marine with plasma gun, marine with heavy bolter, marine with banner (forgot the fancy name)

Veteran squad - Sergeant with thunderhamer bolt pistol, marine with melta gun, marine with heavy bolter, marine with banner

Terminators - Sergeant with power weapon and plasma pistol, 2 Terminators with lightning claws, 1 Terminator with heavy flamer (autocannon is similar in gameplay to heavy bolter) and harnass grenades, 1 Terminator with bolter

The Barbarians (Space Wolves)
Veteran squad - Sergeant with lightning claw and plasma pistol, marine with plasma gun, marine with heavy bolter, marine with banner

Sisters of Silence - Sergeant with sword, 2 other sisters with swords, 1 sister with flamer and 1 sisters with bolter

Custodians - Not sure yet, I hope to convert the sergeant to have an halberd.



Good work. I basically did the same thing. At least two termis with claws is a good idea, because it's nice to have someone who can go toe-to-toe with custodes and Giegor.

I also e-mailed Games Workshop to recommend:

a) They get the designer to write a blog with a sort of "recommended" loadout for casual gamers who just want fun out of the box.
b) In future games, they give a specific loadout for each unit, and then include notes on alternative configurations, to make the whole process less intimidating.

I doubt it will help, but I think it's really important to make the games more accessible.

Note on the custodes: Don't make the HQ with sword and dagger, as there doesn't appear to be any value in doing so. I think I am going with 2 halberd, 1 sword and shield, 1 vexilla, and a HQ with sword and shield.
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Frank Fish
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I just read the rules last night, and I do plan on using the White Dwarf scenario that allows Contemptor dreadnoughts to be added to the game. Based on that plan alone, I wan't to make sure the Wolves have at least one ranged weapon with a high armor penetration, so I will be giving their only squad a melta gun.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Fiveangels wrote:
I just read the rules last night, and I do plan on using the White Dwarf scenario that allows Contemptor dreadnoughts to be added to the game. Based on that plan alone, I wan't to make sure the Wolves have at least one ranged weapon with a high armor penetration, so I will be giving their only squad a melta gun.


Just a warning, the scenario in White Dwarf has the dread fighting on the loyalist's side, not against them.

However, the rules do cover using dreads on either team, so it's still a good plan
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Frank Fish
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I will try them all vanilla, then do a second run through adding a dread to both sides as suggested in the White Dwarf scenario.
 
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Alexis Polux
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Tonijn wrote:
If you unpack the game and put everything together, you're already in a position of making some choices that affect how you'll end up playing the game. After all, a Terminator with lightning claws is different than a ranged version.

So, here's how I put it together, using GW promo photos which I guess is as good a guide as any. Hope this helps someone.

The Enlightened (Thousand Sons)
Veteran squad - Sergeant with power weapon and plasma pistol, marine with plasma gun, marine with heavy bolter, marine with banner (forgot the fancy name)

Veteran squad - Sergeant with thunderhamer bolt pistol, marine with melta gun, marine with heavy bolter, marine with banner

Terminators - Sergeant with power weapon and plasma pistol, 2 Terminators with lightning claws, 1 Terminator with heavy flamer (autocannon is similar in gameplay to heavy bolter) and harnass grenades, 1 Terminator with bolter

The Barbarians (Space Wolves)
Veteran squad - Sergeant with lightning claw and plasma pistol, marine with plasma gun, marine with heavy bolter, marine with banner

Sisters of Silence - Sergeant with sword, 2 other sisters with swords, 1 sister with flamer and 1 sisters with bolter

Custodians - Not sure yet, I hope to convert the sergeant to have an halberd.



Good work. I basically did the same thing. At least two termis with claws is a good idea, because it's nice to have someone who can go toe-to-toe with custodes and Giegor.

I also e-mailed Games Workshop to recommend:

a) They get the designer to write a blog with a sort of "recommended" loadout for casual gamers who just want fun out of the box.
b) In future games, they give a specific loadout for each unit, and then include notes on alternative configurations, to make the whole process less intimidating.

I doubt it will help, but I think it's really important to make the games more accessible.

Note on the custodes: Don't make the HQ with sword and dagger, as there doesn't appear to be any value in doing so. I think I am going with 2 halberd, 1 sword and shield, 1 vexilla, and a HQ with sword and shield.


In 40k the optimal way to build any squad is to specialise everyone in that squad for the same specific role -i.e. close combat, shooting, anti-tank, anti-marine, anti-horde, etc.

Whereas, for Prospero, based upon the discussion so far, it sounds like mixed squads are the optimal way to build units; is this indeed the case?

 
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Pretty much. Each model moves as an individual so they can wander off to fill a specific role, or combine together as needed. A versatile mix seems beneficial, especially as each scenario throws up different challenges.

Edit: Back at my computer now, and I just wanted to add, I am actually a bit disappointed with the weapons in this game. A lot of the weapon options are exactly the same. For example, a chainsword is the same as a power sword is the same as a power fist is the same as a chain fist... It means you don't have to stress quite so much about how you kit out the team; but you are really losing a lot of the flavour of the setting by homogenising the weapon stat lines.

In most cases, your main decision is whether you want D6 and infinite range, or D8 and limited range.
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Alexis Polux
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
I am actually a bit disappointed with the weapons in this game. A lot of the weapon options are exactly the same. For example, a chainsword is the same as a power sword is the same as a power fist is the same as a chain fist... It means you don't have to stress quite so much about how you kit out the team; but you are really losing a lot of the flavour of the setting by homogenising the weapon stat lines.

In most cases, your main decision is whether you want D6 and infinite range, or D8 and limited range.


Given that weapon options matter in Calth, do you consider it a better game?
Or does the inclusion of psykers ('magic') in Prospero give it more depth overall?
 
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Duc de Guise wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
I am actually a bit disappointed with the weapons in this game. A lot of the weapon options are exactly the same. For example, a chainsword is the same as a power sword is the same as a power fist is the same as a chain fist... It means you don't have to stress quite so much about how you kit out the team; but you are really losing a lot of the flavour of the setting by homogenising the weapon stat lines.

In most cases, your main decision is whether you want D6 and infinite range, or D8 and limited range.


Given that weapon options matter in Calth, do you consider it a better game?
Or does the inclusion of psykers ('magic') in Prospero give it more depth overall?


Some weapon choices do matter, but the differences don't seem as interesting. They also seem quite obvious most of the time.

For example, you can arm a marine with a plasma gun (D8, infinite range), or a meltagun (D10, range of 3 zones). Now considering that some scenarios are played out on boards 6 zones wide, and models that are not pinned have a movement of 2 zones, I don't really see why I wouldn't take the meltagun every time. Not only is the D10 a better chance of hitting, in most cases you are going to be in range of something, and it also has a much better chance of causing a critical hit (5/10 opposed to 3/8).

Critical hits in this game just cause double damage (normally enough to instantly kill your target).

Calth weaponry offered different dice and ranges, but they also had interesting special attacks when you rolled a critical, and that added a lot of extra character.

In Prospero, it feels like hand to hand combat suffers the most, because range isn't a factor (with ranged weaponry, there is usually a trade-off between range and power). So, it actually doesn't matter if your veteran sergeant has a power sword, lightning claw, power fist, thunder hammer, or a second chainsword - he still rolls a D8 and gets no special rules.

What really irks me is that you have the option of giving your custodes HQ a sentinel blade and ceremonial dagger. This is specified as a loadout in the unit's squad rules, yet there is actually no in-game reason to give your HQ the dagger. You take it in place of a shield, but while the shield gives you a defensive bonus, the dagger doesn't actually do anything at all, because all of your attacks are made with the more powerful sword. There needs to be a rule that upgrades the sentinel blade's D8 attack to D10 when used in conjunction with the dagger, thereby gaining an increase in attack power but at the cost of losing a defensive bonus.

But it's not all doom and gloom. The lack of variety in weapons makes assembling units less stressful (because it doesn't matter quite as much), and there ARE differences. I mean, a terminator with two lightning claws is going to rip through units of space marines much easier than a terminator with a power fist, because even though there is no difference between the fist and claw, having two claws grants you a second attack.

Prospero also gains in other ways. It focuses more heavily on the asymmetry of the forces. Space Wolves are better at close combat, T1000s get psychic powers. The psychic phase is a dominating feature, and in many cases your turn revolves around positioning your units to take advantage of it next turn (sisters of silence strengthen defense, Ahriman boosts the attack, and so on). Furthermore, positioning and movement are really important here. Movement is orthogonal, and in many cases you position units just to pin your opponent. This may prevent them from moving, and if they are adjacent to you they lose the ability to shoot. This makes the game feel very tactical and a bit like Chess in some ways... well, not like Chess... Not at all like Chess... But kinda.

I would say, in some ways, the simplified weapons loadouts allows you to focus more on positional play and your tactics, because you can't really rely on a spectacular critical effect.

Anyway, this is a really long post and I have completely highjacked a useful thread with a load of old rambling, so I'm stopping. I need to have something to say in my review, after all!
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Alexis Polux
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Thanks RedMonkey for providing the in-depth explanation of weapons and tactics. It is really helpful and will alleviate the anxiety of the irrevocable unit-building process. I thought that I was the only one who suffered from 'decision paralysis'; it looks like there are others out there too.

Saying that, when I don't know what to do at all, my rule of thumb is: 'you can never go wrong if you take the melta-gun'. Melta-guns also have the advantage of fitting the 'rule of cool' too.
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Duc de Guise wrote:
Thanks RedMonkey for providing the in-depth explanation of weapons and tactics. It is really helpful and will alleviate the anxiety of the irrevocable unit-building process. I thought that I was the only one who suffered from 'decision paralysis'; it looks like there are others out there too.

Saying that, when I don't know what to do at all, my rule of thumb is: 'you can never go wrong if you take the melta-gun'. Melta-guns also have the advantage of fitting the 'rule of cool' too.


No problem. Both of these games are very intimidating out of the box, and they really should have given specific loadouts as standard, with "advanced rules" allowing players to mix up the weapon choices. It would have made the game more accessible, without annoying the people who only want the weapon options for the tabletop game.

In Calth, it feels like a good idea to magnetise components, as you really can get some quite varied effects by changing out weapons (personally, I only got the official models last week, and I have played with proxies for so long, I think I am okay with just gluing them as I know which weapons I like). For Prospero, magnetising doesn't seem quite so important, at least for the legion veterans, as the weapons don't dramatically change how the game plays out. It might be worth it for the custodes and terminators though.
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Trevis Marlar
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So, after this time that you have been playing, Which ones do you like?
I have become a fan of your writing and reviewing, and would put weight to your input. I am putting Deathwatch: Overkill together. Bought Calth, and am looking at putting it together, some time, in the future.
 
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sir t wrote:
So, after this time that you have been playing, Which ones do you like?
I have become a fan of your writing and reviewing, and would put weight to your input. I am putting Deathwatch: Overkill together. Bought Calth, and am looking at putting it together, some time, in the future.


I like both games. They are both streamlined, really quick to play, with minimal rules referencing. If anything Prospero is even simpler than Calth, as you don't need to worry about a hand of strategy cards, and you need to worry so much about weapon selection or using the right kind of weapon against a particular enemy type.

From that point of view, Prospero is the better option for introducing a young player to Games Workshop... or, it would be, if the assembly wasn't such a massive pain.

The problem is, Prospero loses some of the flavour. The strategy cards in Calth were a really cool way of giving each side more character, but that has been streamlined out of Prospero and instead replaced with a blanket rule for each side. Wolves are stabby, T1000s are psychic. I think this was necessary for Prospero, as the Wolves army also includes the custodes and sisters - there isn't an easy way to make a deck of strategy cards that would feel thematic yet also be usable by three different army types. However, the blanket rules aren't that exciting. I mean, the custodes special rule is they get to attack twice. Great - so does a terminator with twin lightning claws.

I still need to play Prospero more before I write my review, especially because it's all shiny and new and I don't want to let all the shiny newness blind me to the actual game; but I do like it. It's just... Calth already exists, and in some ways, the two games feel like they do the exact same thing in slightly different ways.

For example, both games have pinning rules that work in slightly different ways, but generally prevent you from doing certain things and making you move slower. Similarly, both games use a health system where units that aren't killed outright get all their health back. The difference is Calth's units have to be killed in a single attack, while in Prospero the damage persists until the end of the round. Both games also have cardplay, but in Prospero it's all front loaded, while in Calth it's dotted throughout the turn (and in Prospero, that opening psychic phase is the key to the game - everything revolves around it).

The rules are quite similar, and yet just different enough, and it really does feel like Games Workshop trying out ideas. Like they are publishing the iterative ideas that came up in playtesting the next 40K release.

So yeah, they are both good games, I think; but I haven't played nearly enough with Prospero to say that with any kind of commitment. I like certain bits of both, but the flavour of Calth and the hex board is better, and the action point system seems to offer better tactical options. Ultimately, although the rules sets are different, both games feel like the same thing, and that means if you really like one, the other one is a bit redundant.

So, if you only want one, at the moment I have to say Calth is the one to get.
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Trevis Marlar
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Sir, as always, your words are appreciated.
When I look at my post, I do understand your answer. ... So, it is my fault.
I was talking about the weapons choices you are going to make when you put your models together. What combinations did your game play sessions lead you to believe were the best?
And, if you want to: Why?

Oh, and I own both games. I'll get to Prospero some when.
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sir t wrote:
Sir, as always, your words are appreciated.
When I look at my post, I do understand your answer. ... So, it is my fault.
I was talking about the weapons choices you are going to make when you put your models together. What combinations did your game play sessions lead you to believe were the best?
And, if you want to: Why?

Oh, and I own both games. I'll get to Prospero some when.


Ha ha. Okay... Let's just ignore my embarrassingly long answer to a question you never asked...

I have to admit, I don't like number-crunching too much. I haven't sat down and worked out the absolute best combinations to statistically gain an advantage. I tend to just gravitate towards certain things that I think are cool, and which also seem to prove effective, while also keeping a bit of variety in the side (I like to field as many different types of weapons as possible).

If you want some serious number-crunching about Calth, I strongly suggest chatting to:

Rauli Kettunen
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He seriously knows his numbers. We agree on absolutely nothing, but I always get the sneaking suspicion he's right

However, for me, when it comes to Calth, I think the traitors need some suppression fire, as the loyalists often end up running towards objectives of some kind and their ability to move is often key to victory; but the traitors also need something with a bit of punch to take down the termies. Missile launchers don't seem as useful, as they lose attack power against the bigger termies. I like meltaguns, because I have a real issue with plasma guns blowing me up when I shoot with them. I like the assault cannon for the dread, but you have to make sure you play the special rule fairly - no rolling dice one at a time!

The loyalist are facing a more numerous foe, so some area affect weapons are nice, plus you want something that can put some hurt on the dread when it starts stomping through your troops. For the termies, I like to take one set of lightning claws because they're cool, and a heavy flamer because you can; but the combination of storm bolter and power fist is the real way to go, as you get those advance and shoot actions. I'm going to change one power fist for a chainfist because variety is the spice of life.

Of course, always take a grenade harness for the termies, and always load up on vexillas for the grunts, because there's no reason not to.

If you have ever done magnetising, it really isn't a bad idea when it comes to Calth, as the scenario you play often effects which weapons are the best.

For Prospero, I am just trying to get a good mix of everything going on, while making sure every miniature looks cool (which isn't hard). For example, with the sisters I am kitting out the HQ and two other models with swords (because they are most effective when they are adjacent to enemy models to negate psychic powers), but I'm giving one a flamer and one a bolter, just for variety.
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Trevis Marlar
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Good stuff, thank you.
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And Like you said Casual Player , witch i am so right now i am proxying the game with mini from other game cause i dont even know how a plasma gun should look like lol, but if someday i want to sell my game or just the miniature i want to be sure they are ''OK'' also i would love to use those miniature to play their new rules set the KillTeam witch i really want to get in to but again i don't know how to built my model to be abble to play both games with those miniatures , so i just hope GW will put something to guide the casual player like me !!
 
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