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Subject: Melee: include leader bonus in total FP? rss

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Ken Thibodeau
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As per the title...?

We just came back to this gem last night, after a 2-3 year hiatus. So we had some questions arising from our rusty brains.

Wow. Still amazed by this game! We played Bessarabian nights and it was a blast!
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Ken Thibodeau
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Re: Melee: add leader bonus to total FP?
Ha, I got the answer from another post.

Short answer: yes
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Francis K. Lalumiere
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Re: Melee: add leader bonus to total FP?
Don't forget that the leader bonus is applied to each unit in the melee (except the leader himself), and that the leader can also participate! (usually adding his 1 power)

That guy can truly makes a huge difference.
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John Spinello
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Re: Melee: add leader bonus to total FP?
I'm sorry, but where in the rules is this stated? I don't see any such thing.
 
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Benoit Larose
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Re: Melee: add leader bonus to total FP?
3.3.1.2 Unit Command
A Leader’s Command number is added directly to the FP,Range, Movement and Morale of all friendly Squads and Teams (only) as long as those units are in the same hex with the Leader—even if the Leader itself is not activated. This effect is cumulative if two or more Leaders occupy the same hex.
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Mark Buetow
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Re: Melee: add leader bonus to total FP?
ahrules wrote:
I'm sorry, but where in the rules is this stated? I don't see any such thing.



3.1.1 Firepower (FP)—
This is the first number along the bottom, and is a unit’s base strength when in Melee [O16.4] or when firing at an enemy unit [O20 & A33].


3.3.1.2.Unit.
Command—A Leader’s Command number is added directly to the FP, Range, Movement and Morale of all friendly Squads and Teams (only) as long as those units are in the same hex with the Leader—even if the Leader itself is not activated. This effect is cumulative if two or more Leaders occupy the same hex.


O16.4.1.Melee.Strength

After both players have played and resolved any Ambush Actions [A25], each adds up the current FP of each of his remaining units – not Weapons – in the Melee hex, then adds +1 for each of those units with a boxed FP to arrive at his “Melee FP”.
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Russ Williams
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Re: Melee: add leader bonus to total FP?
Gunderian007 wrote:
Leaders do not modify other leaders.

So not other units, but rather other non-leader units.

And not weapons in melee.

In the interests of true technical CC pedantry:

We know from 3.3.1.3 that a leader bonus actually IS added to weapons' FP.*

It's just that the weapons (with their increased FP) do not contribute to the Melee FP, so it's irrelevant in Melee that the leader bonus increased the weapons' FP.


* Unless it's a white stripe weapon, yada-yada.
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Mark Buetow
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Re: Melee: add leader bonus to total FP?
fardoche wrote:
Ha, I got the answer from another post.

Short answer: yes


I think to be super clear, the answer to the post title is NO. Leader command is NOT added to the total FP.

As has been said, Leader Command bonus is added to individual unit FPs and Melee strength is the total of all individual FPs (not including weapons and adding +1 for each boxed FP).
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Ken Thibodeau
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Re: Melee: add leader bonus to total FP?
Malacandra wrote:
fardoche wrote:
Ha, I got the answer from another post.

Short answer: yes


I think to be super clear, the answer to the post title is NO. Leader command is NOT added to the total FP.

As has been said, Leader Command bonus is added to individual unit FPs and Melee strength is the total of all individual FPs (not including weapons and adding +1 for each boxed FP).


of course, of course. I edited the title to reflect that.
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Jose Antonio
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Hello, if possible I would like to contribute with my opinion, wrong or not, in case it helps to clarify the subject a little. As I say, I can be wrong, or not. I think not, jeje

If we read the rules O20.3. Fire Attack; the O21 Move; the O22.2. Recover Procedure; the O23.2. Rout Roll; or O20.3.4. Fire Defense Roll; we find in all of them references to the use of command value. As a general rule it could be said that wherever it is possible to use this value, reference is made to it, or we are reminded of its use. That's what I understand.

But, what happen when we refer to the order of Advance?, more specifically to the O16.4.1 Melee Strength. The rule tells us: "... each adds up the current FP of each of his remaining units (not weapons) in the Melee hex, then adds +1 for each of those units with a boxed FP to arrive at his Melee FP. " In this case there is no reference to rule 3.3.1.2. We continue reading O16.4.2 Melee Roll and we continue without news of the bonus.

If we look at the Help Sheet, where are the quick references to the Fire Attack, and Melé, we find exactly the same: the first refers add the command value; the second, no.

There are those who interpret rule 3.3.1.2. Command of the units as very clear in the sense that "always" you have to use the command bonus. There are also those who think in the maxim written at the beginning of the rule book: "Do not infer or imagine more to a rule than is stated in it. When is doubt, interpret strictly. "

I, humbly, understand rule 3.3.1.2 as a way of telling us HOW to use the command value and NOT WHEN to use it. "The command ability of a leader is added directly to the PF ..." (or what I understand is equal to: How must I use this value ?, adding it to the PF ...). When must I use this bonus? Always? I understand that it does not say so and for this, each rule that makes use of or allows to use this value, specifies it with a reminder or reference to rule 3.3.1.2.

Even more, in O16.4.1. Melee Strength, there is no reference to the bonus of control as it is in all other rules that use it. Do we then apply the maxim of not imagining or assuming?

For all of this, I think that you should not add the command value in a melee

Thanks for the attention and I hope I have been of help.

Bigfrost
 
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Dan Huffman
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Bigfrost wrote:
Hello, if possible I would like to contribute with my opinion, wrong or not, in case it helps to clarify the subject a little. As I say, I can be wrong, or not. I think not, jeje

If we read the rules O20.3. Fire Attack; the O21 Move; the O22.2. Recover Procedure; the O23.2. Rout Roll; or O20.3.4. Fire Defense Roll; we find in all of them references to the use of command value. As a general rule it could be said that wherever it is possible to use this value, reference is made to it, or we are reminded of its use. That's what I understand.

But, what happen when we refer to the order of Advance?, more specifically to the O16.4.1 Melee Strength. The rule tells us: "... each adds up the current FP of each of his remaining units (not weapons) in the Melee hex, then adds +1 for each of those units with a boxed FP to arrive at his Melee FP. " In this case there is no reference to rule 3.3.1.2. We continue reading O16.4.2 Melee Roll and we continue without news of the bonus.

If we look at the Help Sheet, where are the quick references to the Fire Attack, and Melé, we find exactly the same: the first refers add the command value; the second, no.

There are those who interpret rule 3.3.1.2. Command of the units as very clear in the sense that "always" you have to use the command bonus. There are also those who think in the maxim written at the beginning of the rule book: "Do not infer or imagine more to a rule than is stated in it. When is doubt, interpret strictly. "

I, humbly, understand rule 3.3.1.2 as a way of telling us HOW to use the command value and NOT WHEN to use it. "The command ability of a leader is added directly to the PF ..." (or what I understand is equal to: How must I use this value ?, adding it to the PF ...). When must I use this bonus? Always? I understand that it does not say so and for this, each rule that makes use of or allows to use this value, specifies it with a reminder or reference to rule 3.3.1.2.

Even more, in O16.4.1. Melee Strength, there is no reference to the bonus of control as it is in all other rules that use it. Do we then apply the maxim of not imagining or assuming?

For all of this, I think that you should not add the command value in a melee

Thanks for the attention and I hope I have been of help.

Bigfrost


Jose, look at the thumb for post 5 .... you'll see that Chad Jensen "thumbed" it. This means that the designer has endorsed Benoit's answer.
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Michael Olsen
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Bigfrost wrote:
I, humbly, understand rule 3.3.1.2 as a way of telling us HOW to use the command value and NOT WHEN to use it. "The command ability of a leader is added directly to the PF ..." (or what I understand is equal to: How must I use this value ?, adding it to the PF ...). When must I use this bonus? Always?


Yes, always. Nothing else is stated, so always is correct.
 
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Russ Williams
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Bigfrost wrote:
I, humbly, understand rule 3.3.1.2 as a way of telling us HOW to use the command value and NOT WHEN to use it. "The command ability of a leader is added directly to the PF ..." (or what I understand is equal to: How must I use this value ?, adding it to the PF ...). When must I use this bonus? Always? I understand that it does not say so


3.3.1.2 about the Command Bonus wrote:
as long as those units are
in the same hex with the Leader—even if the
Leader itself is not activated.


I understand that "as long as those units are in the same hex" tells when the bonus is applied. (To be fair, I can see how you could interpret it with a different nuance, to be merely a necessary condition for the bonus to be applied.)

In any case, in practice it's pretty clear that the command bonus does apply in melee: there have been multiple threads about this, and there is clear consensus among many long-time players that the bonus does apply. If it were not so, then surely Chad Jensen would have explicitly said so at some point, instead of thumbing posts which say that the bonus applies.
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Dan Huffman
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russ wrote:
Bigfrost wrote:
I, humbly, understand rule 3.3.1.2 as a way of telling us HOW to use the command value and NOT WHEN to use it. "The command ability of a leader is added directly to the PF ..." (or what I understand is equal to: How must I use this value ?, adding it to the PF ...). When must I use this bonus? Always? I understand that it does not say so


3.3.1.2 about the Command Bonus wrote:
as long as those units are
in the same hex with the Leader—even if the
Leader itself is not activated.


I understand that "as long as those units are in the same hex" tells when the bonus is applied. (To be fair, I can see how you could interpret it with a different nuance, to be merely a necessary condition for the bonus to be applied.)

In any case, in practice it's pretty clear that the command bonus does apply in melee: there have been multiple threads about this, and there is clear consensus among many long-time players that the bonus does apply. If it were not so, then surely Chad Jensen would have explicitly said so at some point, instead of thumbing posts which say that the bonus applies.


Russ, you probably are already aware of this. but I remember reading a thread about whether or not the Leader bonus applied to the Melee or even the FP of Resistance! units. Chad's INTENT was that it in fact should apply. HOWEVER, that is not what the rule said. And Chad's RULING was that the bonus certainly did NOT apply. I'm sure one of the enterprising people with a good memory can get the link to this discussion...but I always remembered and respected Chad. He could have made a FAQ or an errata to fix it, but he owned it and said, essentially: "Read the rule. It is what is says."
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Russ Williams
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huffman123 wrote:
Russ, you probably are already aware of this. but I remember reading a thread about whether or not the Leader bonus applied to the Melee or even the FP of Resistance! units.

To be honest, I don't remember it! (Maybe it was in the Resistance forum? Or if in the CC base game forum, I didn't pay close attention, since I don't own Resistance.)

Sounds interesting; do you remember how 3.3.1.2 would not apply to Resistance units specifically? Are Resistance leaders somehow technically not "friendly" to Resistance units, or something strange like that?
 
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Dan Huffman
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russ wrote:
huffman123 wrote:
Russ, you probably are already aware of this. but I remember reading a thread about whether or not the Leader bonus applied to the Melee or even the FP of Resistance! units.

To be honest, I don't remember it! (Maybe it was in the Resistance forum? Or if in the CC base game forum, I didn't pay close attention, since I don't own Resistance.)

Sounds interesting; do you remember how 3.3.1.2 would not apply to Resistance units specifically? Are Resistance leaders somehow technically not "friendly" to Resistance units, or something strange like that?


"3.3.1.2.Unit.Command—A Leader’s Command number is added directly to the FP, Range, Movement and Morale of all friendly Squads and Teams (only) as long as those units are in the same hex with the Leader—even if the Leader itself is not activated. This effect is cumulative if two or more Leaders occupy the same hex. "

Note that is says that it affects "Squads and Teams (only)" .... It specifically excludes Gangs, Bands, Troops, Sections, and Crews.
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Russ Williams
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huffman123 wrote:
Note that is says that it affects "Squads and Teams (only)" .... It specifically excludes Gangs, Bands, Troops, Sections, and Crews.

Ha, cool!
 
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Jose Antonio
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Dan, the only that I see in post 5 is that Chad has "thumbed" the rule. That is all. I´m sorry but I don´t see "Yes, you must add this", or "Not, you should not add This".

I think that we are here speaking about the rule 3.3.1.2. because, really, we had read it before to ask about.

The problem is that, for one reason or another, rule 3.3.1.2., for some may be very clear in one sense, for others it is in a different way. It can be frustrating to have to ask someone if use or not to use the bonus every time you play this fantastic game. And even more if the game is decided at the last moment by a +2, +4, or even more, added to a melee simply by a leader, and you, surprised, just find how your opponent plays the rule

I, as everyone I suppose, respect the rules of the game, for that they are, but the ambiguity breaks them. So much ambiguity has come that there are those who add only the value of command to the total of the melee, others to each units participating, and others that do not add. Dan, yourself have commented the case of the units of the Resistance, for example.

I think, therefore, that it would be interesting and good for the game to appear a Yes or Not, regarding this rule, in the game FAQ in GMT. If there are for other rules, why not for this? I think that would be the easiest way to solve this doubt.

And, with Yes or Not, of course, always respecting the rules of this game.

Thank.

Edit: Dan, Sorry, I just realized that post 5 is a reply to post 4, and in turn this a question from post 3
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Bigfrost wrote:


The problem is that, for one reason or another, rule 3.3.1.2., for some may be very clear in one sense, for others it is in a different way. It can be frustrating to have to ask someone if use or not to use the bonus every time you play this fantastic game.


This seems to be already answered by the use of the world "always."
 
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Russ Williams
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Bigfrost wrote:
The problem is that, for one reason or another, rule 3.3.1.2., for some may be very clear in one sense, for others it is in a different way. It can be frustrating to have to ask someone if use or not to use the bonus every time you play this fantastic game.

Honestly, in practice I have never found this to be a problem (and I've played with a half dozen various people over the years, and followed many rules discussions): you are the first person I can recall who has insisted so forcefully that the rule does not mean what most players seem to agree that it does mean.

Quote:
I, as everyone I suppose, respect the rules of the game, for that they are, but the ambiguity breaks them.

Are you seriously saying that CC's rules are so ambiguous that they are broken? To me, the CC rules are among the least ambiguous of any wargame of its complexity which I've played. (Not coincidentally, Fighting Formations: Grossdeutschland Motorized Infantry Division by the same author is another.)

If all wargame rulebooks were this ambiguous and broken, I'd be very happy.
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Jose Antonio
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Mark, yes, or with a reference to the command value in O16.4, as in the other rules that use it.
 
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Jose Antonio
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Russ: "I understand that "as long as those units are in the same hex" tells when the bonus is applied."

(Sorry, I do not know how to use a written reference from another post)

I don´t understand it as a WHEN to use the bonus, but WHERE to use it, in the same hex as other units. If you did not say so, you could think that a command could use his command value in any of the hexagons of his command distance.

And please, what less helps to solve doubts are subjective assessments of words spoken by others. To say that someone plays with half a dozen people in a year helps little to resolve questions about game rules. I have been involved in this wargame world since 1975, with Panzerblitz (AH) as my first game and I do not think that has anything to do with the title of this forum. Thank you.

And as Dan said, I respect Chad Jensen's last word with that finger up in post 5 as the creator of one of the best games of the IIWW I've tried but that does not mean that I can´t have another vision of his own words , And not only me, but people from other forums or blogs dedicated to this game; that there are, although some are not found with any. There is always a first time. The language, sometimes, like or do not like, can be ambiguous.

Thank you for your attention and help.
 
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Russ Williams
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(Tech help tangent)

Bigfrost wrote:
(Sorry, I do not know how to use a written reference from another post)


Use the Quote button. Quoted text goes between [ q ] [ / q ] tags (without spaces in them) or [ q="name of person you are quoting" ] [ / q ]. You can also simply type that forum markup code directly yourself.

You can always Quote another post to see how to do an effect in that post.

The BGG wiki page Forum formatting is also helpful.
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Jose Antonio
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russ wrote:
(Tech help tangent)

Bigfrost wrote:
(Sorry, I do not know how to use a written reference from another post)


Use the Quote button. Quoted text goes between [ q ] [ / q ] tags (without spaces in them) or [ q="name of person you are quoting" ] [ / q ]. You can also simply type that forum markup code directly yourself.

You can always Quote another post to see how to do an effect in that post.

The BGG wiki page Forum formatting is also helpful.


Russ, thank you very much.
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Bigfrost wrote:
Russ: "I understand that "as long as those units are in the same hex" tells when the bonus is applied."

(Sorry, I do not know how to use a written reference from another post)

I don´t understand it as a WHEN to use the bonus, but WHERE to use it, in the same hex as other units. If you did not say so, you could think that a command could use his command value in any of the hexagons of his command distance.

And please, what less helps to solve doubts are subjective assessments of words spoken by others. To say that someone plays with half a dozen people in a year helps little to resolve questions about game rules. I have been involved in this wargame world since 1975, with Panzerblitz (AH) as my first game and I do not think that has anything to do with the title of this forum. Thank you.

And as Dan said, I respect Chad Jensen's last word with that finger up in post 5 as the creator of one of the best games of the IIWW I've tried but that does not mean that I can´t have another vision of his own words , And not only me, but people from other forums or blogs dedicated to this game; that there are, although some are not found with any. There is always a first time. The language, sometimes, like or do not like, can be ambiguous.

Thank you for your attention and help.


Then take it from Chad himself

Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:
Hi ...

Hello there. :)

Quote:
in combat(melee) does a leader add is leader bonus to himself

No. This is covered explicitly in rules 3.3.1.1 and 3.3.1.2 (especially the gray box).

Quote:
and also every over unit he commands in melee?

Yes. This is covered explicitly in rule 3.3.1.2.





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