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Subject: Kickstarter concern rss

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juan davila
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Hey guys, I wanted to ask all of the guys that kickstarted conan how did that go? I'm interested in this campaign but wanted to know what to expect in fufillments.
Thanks for answering
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Martin Gallo
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rocco93bz wrote:
Hey guys, I wanted to ask all of the guys that kickstarted conan how did that go? I'm interested in this campaign but wanted to know what to expect in fufillments.
Thanks for answering
You ask a very subjective and open ended question. As I recall the campaign went okay up until the delays kicked in. There are many threads relating problems (roughly three threads per problem) mostly dealing with rules translations and people not believing the miniatures are good enough. I am still awaiting my delivery so I do not know if it is a tempest in a teapot or a real problem.

It is over a year late and many backers in the USA and Canada are still awaiting fulfillment. My guess is that the games will be delivered by the end of November - roughly a month after the last promised date.

Some people are saying it is the best game ever and others want their money back.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Personally i am not that concerned about delivery as they are - almost - always late.
Add some 4-6 months to the ETA and you're good in most of the cases.
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David E
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Like Martin said, you're going to get a lot of answers.

What can be stated more or less objectively is:

1. Delivery on Conan was late, later than average even for a Kickstarter.

2. Rewards are in the process of being delivered. Many people have received them already - those who haven't will presumably get them soon.

3. The rulebook is less clear and well-edited than it could have been.

4. The game is nonetheless evidently playable. Some people are loving it, some are less impressed.

5. Quality of the miniatures is subjective, but it's not uniform.


So, there is no reason to doubt that Mythic Battles will eventually be delivered, that the game will be playable, and that the minis will be pretty good. How good the total package will be, and whether Monolith will improve in the areas where they stumbled in delivering Conan - your guess is as good as mine.

(FWIW, I was a King backer on Conan, and I jumped on Mythic Battles right away.)
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Patrick Heron
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I didn't kickstart it but got a late pledge - game arrived last week and it is beautiful. Haven't played it yet but my mate who also got it has and he says it's a total blast to play.
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Itai Perez
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Here's a post by Erwan in Monolith on the subject (translation is mine):

Erwan Hascoet from Monolith wrote:
What you need to understand in comparison to Conan is that we hadn't done a KS before and that our estimation of the work was based on our experience in traditional game publishing, which at the end is very different.
Since then we did our best to learn from the experience. Here are the differences relative to Conan of everything we improved in order to not have delays:
- we purchased a 3D HD printer to not be dependant of an external printer service (3 months of printing after the KS for Conan)
- we invested and had the casts done for the core box BEFORE the launch of the KS. This step had been done several months after the KS for Conan.
- we had sculpted in advance a much bigger number of figures.
- translation and layout of the rules made BEFORE the launch of the kickstarter
- better repartition of the different tasks in the Mythic Battles team between the 2 copublishers. At the time of Conan launch we were only 3 people at Monolith to work on the project. Today, without counting the freelancers, between Mythic Games and Monolith, we are more than 10.
- we hired of asenior production manager (Upper Deck, Wizkids, Magic, etc.)
- we changed maufacturer for the paper part (punchboard, box, etc.), between the base box and add-ons which made us gain considerable time.


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juan davila
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Thanks for all the answers
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Steven R
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I really don't see much of a reason to KS games unless you are an 'exclusives' fanatic...in the end they're almost always cheaper at online retail price or even used as some people will always have buyers remorse, etc... This seems like way too much of an investment up front for a game that is going to take at least a year to deliver...I will potential buy later...probably Amazon and get it for $20 less with free shipping...Wow...just save saved myself $40-$50.
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Hanwen Dong
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rocco93bz wrote:
Hey guys, I wanted to ask all of the guys that kickstarted conan how did that go? I'm interested in this campaign but wanted to know what to expect in fufillments.
Thanks for answering


Some people liked it, some people not so much
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Rex Gator
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A couple of additional points.

1. Mythic Battles Pantheon based on an existing game that was well regarded by many people. Pantheon does streamline and alter it a bit but there are a number of actual play videos that can clearly demonstrate exactly how this version will play.

2. This is a partnership versus being the second game by the Conan team. The Conan team certainly seem to be making efforts to address the disappointments and delays with fulfillment. It seems like they will have learned valuable lessons that should make Mythic Battles Pantheon fufill more smoothly.

3. I have found some of the disappointment with Conan to be a little unfair. The complaints about number of scenarios and lack of scenarios for wave 2 models in particular seem to be unfair. If someone had used some due diligence before backing they would have known what was coming in the core box and what was going to be added as supplemental material later in time.

Bottom line, I would not spend too much focus on the Conan fulfillment and instead focus on whether you think you will enjoy Mythic Battles and whether you want/need it early with kickstarter release or if you can wait until retail release.
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David E
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swr66 wrote:
I really don't see much of a reason to KS games unless you are an 'exclusives' fanatic...in the end they're almost always cheaper at online retail price or even used as some people will always have buyers remorse, etc... This seems like way too much of an investment up front for a game that is going to take at least a year to deliver...I will potential buy later...probably Amazon and get it for $20 less with free shipping...Wow...just save saved myself $40-$50.


This is true, with a few caveats:

1. Sometimes KS backing really is needed to make the game happen.

2. KS backing improves stretch goals.

3. Some games are so hot that they never reach retail, and those who didn't back them on KS end up paying a premium on eBay. (Admittedly, this is rare, but I wouldn't say it's impossible for popular minis games.)

4. A lot of people just like being "early adaopters" and feeling like they are part of the community that brought the game to life.

Now, if (4) has no appeal to you and you are just looking for the best price (and don't care about exclusives), then you're right, for a game like Mythic Battles that has already funded, there is no real incentive to back it yourself.

Mythic Battles does have a lot of KS exclusives, though.
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Ondrej Kocnar
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I personally was satisfied with Conan KS.
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H-H Boudje
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Conan pledge was planned to be released about 6 month after the launch of the kickstarter...way too optimistic.

Mythic battle is planned to be release 1 year after the kickstarter, and is more ready than Conan (more things are completed) and it's not their first game anymore.

I think the only problem with Conan is the delay (1 year witch is high, but not a record).

The quality of Conan is really good for a boardgame.
The quantity of gifts in the Conan box compared to the same game in a shop is really huge.
You really have 2 box (yes, two physical different box) of the same size, but one is only for the stretch goals.
So, even with the delay, Conan was a very good KS for me.
I assume there will be no delay for their second games, so I had already pledge.
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Ben Clapperton
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swr66 wrote:
I really don't see much of a reason to KS games unless you are an 'exclusives' fanatic...in the end they're almost always cheaper at online retail price or even used as some people will always have buyers remorse, etc... This seems like way too much of an investment up front for a game that is going to take at least a year to deliver...I will potential buy later...probably Amazon and get it for $20 less with free shipping...Wow...just save saved myself $40-$50.


It depends on if you're just talking about getting the core box. If that's all you want you'll get it cheaper at retail. However, you get way than just the contents of the core box for your pledge. Regardless of whether they're exclusive or not, if I was given the choice between a core box at 20% off retail, or paying $125ish (including shipping) to get a core box plus a lot of additional content, I'll take the latter. Though like I say, if you don't want anything other than the core box, then it's more cost effective to wait.

And in terms getting it cheaper from those with buyers remorse. I've already seen Conan pledges going for more than twice the cost of the pledge. I've sold a few exclusives from CMON KS campaigns for more than the entire cost of my pledge and still had the core game plus extras left.
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Martin Gallo
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Boudje wrote:
I think the only problem with Conan is the delay (1 year witch is high, but not a record).
Those of us still waiting three months after distribution started and a month after it was scheduled might quibble over this. I will not know until, possibly, Friday. The North American fulfillment delay is kind of out of Monolith's hands. The almost total lack of follow up for backers is not. It might just be a minor irritation n a few weeks, as so many of these kerfuffles are. Again, only time will tell.
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Ukko Kaarto
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As an European King Conan backer I'm very satisfied. Got my Conan game + extras two weeks ago and quality is top notch. Pledged for MB right away as the game looks like fun.

What I do with Kickstarters is "fire and forget". If I find something interesting I pledge for it and then forget the whole thing and play other games until I receive the box. I never ever think I'll be getting the game on the date KS promises, maybe 10 months later. Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised, sometimes not, but I have other games to play while I wait.

For us EU backers KS are many times much better deal compared to US backers, since we don't have online stores selling stuff at 40% discount from the retail prices (although now that Asmodee has bought everything that is probably going to change in the US as well).
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Hestis
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swr66 wrote:
I really don't see much of a reason to KS games unless you are an 'exclusives' fanatic...in the end they're almost always cheaper at online retail price or even used as some people will always have buyers remorse, etc... This seems like way too much of an investment up front for a game that is going to take at least a year to deliver...I will potential buy later...probably Amazon and get it for $20 less with free shipping...Wow...just save saved myself $40-$50.


Conan is selling for $102 on Miniature Market and CSI for the retail box with none of the stretch goals. Base pledge was $90. Not available on Amazon yet.

Also, they unlocked 53 stretch goals. Now, consider that even on sale, a single Imperial Assault mini will cost you $5. If you backed Conan at just the Barbarian level you probably saved at least $200, and that's IF everything you got even made it to retail.
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Wansart Vinciane
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Belgian pledger of all-in for Conan. I received my pledge (first wave) 3weeks ago. I have played 6 Games with 7 differents gamers. Every body find it great. Tactical, beautiful, interesting for players and for Overlord.

Indeed, Conan was later than annouced, they are 2 waves,...
But Conan is a great Ks made by passionnate people Who learned, assuming their mystakes (update rulebook) and will do better.

I pledge Mythic battle too without doubt, That will be a great Ks too.
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Thanee
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Mistakes are there to learn from them.

So, if anything, everything that went wrong with the Conan Kickstarter will be for the better for this one.

Bye
Thanee
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Thanee
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swr66 wrote:
I really don't see much of a reason to KS games unless you are an 'exclusives' fanatic...in the end they're almost always cheaper at online retail price or even used as some people will always have buyers remorse, etc... This seems like way too much of an investment up front for a game that is going to take at least a year to deliver...I will potential buy later...probably Amazon and get it for $20 less with free shipping...Wow...just save saved myself $40-$50.


Possible. But you get MUCH less for that money.

In Kickstarters like this one, you can expect to at least double your money in terms of value for the pledge. Even the stretch goals they have added now, after one day, add quite a bit of value to the base game. And it is pretty much guaranteed, especially with such great preparation they have put into the campaign this time (they certainly learned from their mistakes made during the Conan Kickstarter), that there will be quite a bit more coming.

This does not come for free, of course. You have risks (this one probably has less of them compared to Conan), and you have to pay a year or more in advance. But the value is there for sure.

The part where it does not compare so well to retail is add-ons. Those are, usually, only a bit cheaper (if at all) compared to typical retail prices. And waiting gives you the advantage of being able to see if you really like the game, or if there are reviews for the add-ons that offer additional information, and so on. The advantage here is mainly to get them faster, as it sometimes takes a while until expansions hit the retail channels.

On the other hand, buying the add-ons during the campaign increases the value of the basic pledge for everyone. This is a group effort, and the more people are willing and able to get that stuff in advance, the more everyone benefits from it.

Bye
Thanee
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H-H Boudje
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martimer wrote:
Boudje wrote:
I think the only problem with Conan is the delay (1 year witch is high, but not a record).
Those of us still waiting three months after distribution started and a month after it was scheduled might quibble over this. I will not know until, possibly, Friday. The North American fulfillment delay is kind of out of Monolith's hands. The almost total lack of follow up for backers is not. It might just be a minor irritation n a few weeks, as so many of these kerfuffles are. Again, only time will tell.


Sorry for my english skills if I was unclear.
My point is that the release for Conan was planned for October 2015. The box arrived around October 2016, so it's about 1 year after it was scheduled. I assume the last boxes will arrived this month all over the world.

This extra delay was a huge problem for me, and I express that on other forum. Only thing that calm me was the surprise when I receid my box...My wife asked why I ordered 2 games, and I think for a moment that there was a mistake before I realize that the second enormous box was the gift from the barbarian pledge.
So I simpatize with people still waiting, and I assume nothing can calmm them until they get their boxes.

I won't pledge for Mythic battle if I think this situation could appened again.
But, as I remember, there is 3 month of the delay because the money was frozen by amazon because of the localisation of the society, and the fact it was a new on I assume. This will not happened again.
There was a few other problems like this one that can't happened (they have already the mold for this KS, another source of delay in the last one), etc. Not to mention the fact that there is 3 times more people working on that KS apparently.

And moreover: they planned to release it in 12 month, when in the last one they planned to release it in 6. Way more honnest/realistic

So i think the only concern with the last one was the delay, you should realize that when you received your boxes.
In fact the other concern is the fact that there is no fan made scenario available on there website yet...but since poeple only received there boxes now...we will see in a few weeks...
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Thanee
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Boudje wrote:
I won't pledge for Mythic battle if I think this situation could appened again.

And moreover: they planned to release it in 12 month, when in the last one they planned to release it in 6. Way more honnest/realistic


I think it is pretty safe to say, that it will be much better in this campaign.

They are far, far ahead of where they have been with Conan at this point (campaign still running). They already have much of the work done, in fact, especially some of the stuff that takes a lot of time.

First of all, it is a reimplementation of an existing game, so it can build on that. Then there have been several hundred playtesting sessions already. The rules are written, the miniatures are sculpted, the molds are done, and they even have first production models in plastic (which look fantastic). They really did their homework this time! It's a finished game they are selling here (similar to how CMON does it) not a project still half in development (which, of course, is a bit closer to what Kickstarter actually is meant for; so, if you look at it this way, Conan was more of an actual Kickstarter; but people have high expectations these days, so it just does not work too well like that).

The 6 months until delivery for Conan was a complete joke, or rather... wishful thinking, at best. That was utterly impossible to achieve. But, yeah, first project and all that. Let's forget about it and look forward. The games are being delivered, very late but still, and mistakes are going to be fixed. In the end, it is the result that counts most, and the long wait will hopefully be forgotten in the joy derived from playing the game.

I have full confidence, that this campaign will work out a lot better than the last!

Bye
Thanee
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Roberto Lanza
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Kickstarter is NOT a store. At the bottom of the page are listed the risks in delivery that apparently nobody reads.

Some of these games cannot even happen without a Kickstarter. See the video on Undead Viking as they explain how the original game was created and that without Kickstarter since they are a small company, there would be no new version of MB.

Those who pledge on Kickstarter make it possible for these games to even make into retail due to the economics of the effort.

Did they make some mistakes in Conan? Yep, and again in the video they explain the challenges they encountered on of them is the shear number of people who pledged that cause them to need to find another factory that could even make the order.

They also explain, they cannot control shipping. As I work in the logistic industry, this is often true from an economics reason. If you want the items faster, it costs you. If you can only spend x amount of budget then you must use a consolidator and wait.

As far as the issues, they are being addressed. I believe only if you are in Canada are you waiting.

Short answer, this was a large endeavor and mistakes had been made. They acknowledge the issues are better prepared for MB.

By pledging you get some exclusives for your trouble, but there can be delays and expect some future correction or errata to the rules and printed material. All in all, your are helping the game community and you are getting a quality products as well as assisting a small company to grow.

Nobody forces you to use Kickstarter, you can always wait for retail.
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Patrick Reynolds
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I always expect actual delivery on any big KS like this to run up to a year past their stated goal. The exception is games from Cool Mini or Not, who typically has been very good at hitting their delivery dates, but that's more because they use KS as a storefront to sell games that are already well into the development/production cycle. Conan blew up so big and they added so much stuff, a lot of which they didn't even have concept art for at the time, so they had a lot of work to do to meet their promises. I'd watch Pantheon - if stretch goals start getting into that territory; where they're showing sketches or 3D renders, you know they have a lot of work ahead of them before production starts.

Still, if you plan for a year delay and can be patient, Conan turned out to be a solid game and Monolith delivered on what they promised without cutting corners, so this seems like a pretty safe bet.
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Teowulff wrote:
Personally i am not that concerned about delivery as they are - almost - always late.
Add some 4-6 months to the ETA and you're good in most of the cases.


Lateness is, imo, an artifact of KS and stretch goals. First off, in retail, you pretty much *never* see a boardgame retail delivery date that's accurate to the month. Usually, it's to the quarter, and retail companies push back delivery dates as well. Fantasy Flight has a schedule of its game and their status, and makes changes as necessary.

Second, stretch goals are *not* an integral part of KS. You can run a KS without stretch goals. So, as a result of stretch goals, a creator has a larger project, so takes longer to fulfill it. *But* a creator has no or little way to know which stretch goals will be unlocked before his project starts, yet KS *requires* him to give an delivery date.

So, when the project becomes so large that the stretch goals and unlocked add-ons become bigger than the core, the project will obviously take twice or otherwise much longer than just the core box. *But* KS will not allow a creator to change the delivery date.

*That* is why veteran KS backers don't pay attention to the delivery date. You don't know the scope of a KS project until you know which SG's are unlocked, so you can't give an estimated delivery date, yet KS requires you to provide one before the campaign starts! I think when time machines are invented, we'll take care of this problem. (Now, there's an idea for a KS project!)
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