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Subject: can madness kill an elder god? rss

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robert baynosa
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if for example cthulhu and the black goat were engaged in single combat (and the crawling chaos player already with the madness spell) and the black goat was pained in combat- the crawling chaos player then moves the black goat to an adjacent area with cthulhu monsters. as per the rules, when a unit is forced to retreat into an are containing a unit it just did battle with, it will go back to the original area but one unit is destroyed. so, in this case it would destroy the black goat.

this was my friends, interpretation of the rules which i contested. in his interpretation, the crawling chaos player can move pained units into any area, thus leading to a unit being eliminated if he moves the unit into an area occupied by a combatant. in my interpretation, the crawling chaos has to move the pained unit into a legal area (unoccupied by an enemy combatant) if available.

if my friend's interpretation is right, thenthe crawling chaos can effectively eliminate units and elder without being in battle or spending an action point- and that seems grossly op. the way i understand it, this power is meant to spread units, but not eliminate them by retreating them into enemy occupied area and thus eliminating a unit. which is which? ty
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Niko
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travelbug wrote:
if for example cthulhu and the black goat were engaged in single combat (and the crawling chaos player already with the madness spell) and the black goat was pained in combat- the crawling chaos player then moves the black goat to an adjacent area with cthulhu monsters. as per the rules, when a unit is forced to retreat into an are containing a unit it just did battle with, it will go back to the original area but one unit is destroyed. so, in this case it would destroy the black goat.

this was my friends, interpretation of the rules which i contested. in his interpretation, the crawling chaos player can move pained units into any area, thus leading to a unit being eliminated if he moves the unit into an area occupied by a combatant. in my interpretation, the crawling chaos has to move the pained unit into a legal area (unoccupied by an enemy combatant) if available.

if my friend's interpretation is right, thenthe crawling chaos can effectively eliminate units and elder without being in battle or spending an action point- and that seems grossly op. the way i understand it, this power is meant to spread units, but not eliminate them by retreating them into enemy occupied area and thus eliminating a unit. which is which? ty
Your interpretation is correct. Madness lets CC pick where units retreat to among legal retreat destinations.

Only when no legal retreat destination exist then you cancel all pains and inflict another kill, but the player on the receiving end gets to pick which of their units is removed, not CC.

EDIT: Note that madness lets CC pick which side retreats first so it might be possible for CC to arrange it so that one faction has no legal retreat destination. That still doesn't let CC assign the resulting kill though.
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Sandy Petersen
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1) Madness doesn't pick who gets retreated. The faction who is pained does this.

2) You cannot retreat a unit into an area containing your enemy's units. If Black Goat & Cthulhu fight, Madness does not let Nyarlathotep retreat a Black Goat unit into an area containing a Cthulhu unit.

3) Madness does not let you pick who gets eliminated as a result of failure to retreat.

The bottom line is this. If the only unit left after a battle is Shub-Niggurath, and all surrounding areas contain her enemy combatant (possibly because they were retreated there by Crawling Chaos), then yes, Shub-Niggurath gets eliminated as a result of failure to retreat.

I've seen this happen, but the Black Goat player sort of has to leave himself exposed (which sometimes happens due to Avatar, admittedly). I've seen it done to Hastur, who also sometimes leaves himself out on a limb, using He Who Is Not To Be Named. And I've seen it happen to Cthulhu, who tends to not be cautious about his GOO. I have not seen it much with other GOOs.

The point is it's rare, and the player who might possibly get stuck because of this has to be aware of the possibility.
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Andy Blozinski
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If it's not too late, I would advise to make it more clear on the subject of Madness and choice of retreat path. We also interpreted that it allows CC to choose, and thus choose that which kills.
 
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robert baynosa
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pollock1939 wrote:
If it's not too late, I would advise to make it more clear on the subject of Madness and choice of retreat path. We also interpreted that it allows CC to choose, and thus choose that which kills.


agree. i can see how you and my friend can easily interpret it as such.
 
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Niko
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I generally don't like arguing that the rules are clear enough as is (some people will invariably interpret it as an attack on them, which is not how I mean it!) but nothing about madness implies that the chosen area doesn't have to obey the usual rules for legal retreat destinations. To me a rule has to be obeyed unless an ability specifically lets you break it.

Maybe somebody can point out what should be changed to make it more clear to them?
 
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Alex Hobbit
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I would say, that the rulebook is a very good source here p.45
Quote:
Q. Regarding Crawling Chaos’s Madness Spellbook, must he obey
normal restrictions on retreating Units (I.e., not into an area containing
Units of the Faction just battled)?
A. Yes, he must obey normal retreat rules. He also does not get to
choose WHICH Units retreat, only their destination. Also note that
with Madness, Crawling Chaos can retreat players in either order, i.e.,
retreating the Defender first.
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Andy Blozinski
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That looks like a FAQ section. It's not part of the normal rules. People don't reference the FAQ unless they're confused. The rules pretty clearly said CC gets to choose and that was pretty clear to us. Nowhere did it say there were any restrictions on this special rule. It said CC gets to choose. Ever played a game where the special rules over-ride the regular rules? Well, letting CC choose does just that.

So, the rule was clear, but the FAQ clears up the intention. Hence..I hope the big book makes the intention clear from the start.
 
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Adam Starks
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CC gets to choose, which is a modification of the original rule, which is that the owning faction chooses. In the original rules, it then goes on to say what is and what is not a valid area to be Pained to, explains the "No-Retreat Elimination", etc. Nowhere in Madness text does it say that none of the regular restrictions apply, it just alters the decision maker.

I've played this game with dozens of new players, and never seen any of them confused by this. That doesn't mean the confusion isn't reasonable, but it does indicate that it's rare enough as to be FAQ worthy. After all, if you cram too much text into the spellbooks, you then get the opposite problem where players are much more likely to gloss over or miss key phrasings.

Also, I'm not really sure where OP's friend got the idea that Paining into an enemy area would Eliminate the unit anyways. The Elimination is specifically called out as only happening if there is no legal adjacent area.
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Tiago Gouveia
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AdamStarks wrote:
CC gets to choose, which is a modification of the original rule, which is that the owning faction chooses. In the original rules, it then goes on to say what is and what is not a valid area to be Pained to, explains the "No-Retreat Elimination", etc. Nowhere in Madness text does it say that none of the regular restrictions apply, it just alters the decision maker.

I've played this game with dozens of new players, and never seen any of them confused by this. That doesn't mean the confusion isn't reasonable, but it does indicate that it's rare enough as to be FAQ worthy. After all, if you cram too much text into the spellbooks, you then get the opposite problem where players are much more likely to gloss over or miss key phrasings.

Also, I'm not really sure where OP's friend got the idea that Paining into an enemy area would Eliminate the unit anyways. The Elimination is specifically called out as only happening if there is no legal adjacent area.


I had a similar interpretation issue, but this time concerning the byakhee combat value. A friend argued that the combat value (1+#of byakhee in battle) shoul be applyed to each byakhee, similarly of what happens to formless spawns. I never. Noticed but the text in YS faction sheet is ambiguous.
 
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Adam Starks
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The wording there is a little ambiguous, but there are plenty of examples in the rulebook to counter your friend's interpretation.
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Niko
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pollock1939 wrote:
The rules pretty clearly said CC gets to choose and that was pretty clear to us. Nowhere did it say there were any restrictions on this special rule. It said CC gets to choose. Ever played a game where the special rules over-ride the regular rules? Well, letting CC choose does just that.
The last part is where we disagree; You say changing a part of the retreat rules invalidates all usual restrictions, I say changing a part of the retreat rules invalidates no more than the part it explicitly changes.

I mean, just because CC can move two areas instead of one doesn't mean it gets to ignore all other restrictions placed on movement (e.g. moving to non-adjacent areas), right?
 
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Andy Blozinski
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Trying to tell us we're wrong because it's so obvious is ignoring the fact that, just on this forum, we have two disparate examples of people (or groups) that interpreted it the same way that you disagree with. Thanks for telling me I can't see what's obvious to you.
 
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Adam Starks
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Nobody said you're wrong because "it's so obvious", we're just explaining how we interpret the wording.

Different people think differently, and read different things out of the same set of words. That's okay, and is one reason FAQs exist. It's also why we're fortunate to have Sandy and other official voices on these forums, to fill in the gaps of the rules and FAQ.
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Niko
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pollock1939 wrote:
Trying to tell us we're wrong because it's so obvious is ignoring the fact that, just on this forum, we have two disparate examples of people (or groups) that interpreted it the same way that you disagree with. Thanks for telling me I can't see what's obvious to you.
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
I generally don't like arguing that the rules are clear enough as is (some people will invariably interpret it as an attack on them, which is not how I mean it!)
Thanks for reassuring me that I've not slipped into some strange parallel dimension

Seriously though, you've stated your reason for reading it one way, which I very much appreciate, and I've pointed out why I disagree with it. Now you are shutting down the discussion instead of helping us hone in on how the rules can be improved without becoming bloated.

I'm with you that the rules aren't perfect (e.g. Adams comment about the byakhee/undead combat strength being ambiguous in some places when it would be better that they were clear everywhere) but if you think they are unclear then it is up to you to point out how they can be made more clear.
Just saying "they aren't clear" and shutting down discussion when others try get to the cause of the confusion isn't helpful.

While I have no influence on the content of the rules, PG do read these forums and will hopefully consider threads like this when working on the Omega rule book.
Speaking of which, I can't wait for it to be uploaded it and hope that it's still early enough for PG to consider changes people suggest. Crowd sourced proof reading would be great
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Sandy Petersen
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It is in the FAQ rather than the main bulk of the rules because it is a specific exception for a single spellbook.

The Madness spellbook does say that you must follow all normal rules for Pains.

And you never retreat a guy into an area where there are units of your enemy. It just doesn't happen. No where do the rules say that you "retreat into an enemy area, then one guy gets killed". If ANY area exists without that enemy, you just retreat there. Madness doesn't supercede this and I don't think the rules imply otherwise. Of course Madness makes it likelier you can create such a problem.
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