$60.00
$20.00
Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
55 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Evolution: Climate» Forums » Rules

Subject: Intelligence again rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Benji
Switzerland
Gurmels
FR
flag msg tools
visit us on www.muwins.ch
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
I just got my kickstarted game - it looks great!

A quick scan of one of the earlier "problematic" cards - intelligence - showed the following: while the card says that it can be used during "one" feeding turn, the rules mention "turns", hence multiple uses. Which is it?

I have to say, I was really hoping that this kind of ambiguities on earlier cards would be cleared up in the new version.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pierre Beri
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
You can use Intelligence any number of times during any number of feeding turns.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benji
Switzerland
Gurmels
FR
flag msg tools
visit us on www.muwins.ch
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks a lot for clearing it up! So, unfortunately, the card is definitely wrong this time instead of just ambiguous.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David A
United States
Yorktown
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Since very few of us have the new card set, for clarification, can you tell us the exact text? That will help frame the answer.

**edit: I ask because in playtesting, I don't recall the wording being any different than the base Evolution game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benji
Switzerland
Gurmels
FR
flag msg tools
visit us on www.muwins.ch
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
The card says:

"Discard a card(s) from your hand during one of your Feeding turns:

Carnivore: Negate a trait for this species' next attack.
Non-Carnivore: Take 2 Food from the food bank"

The "one of your feeding turns" part seems to be definitely wrong. It should say "during your feeding turn".
Also, to be more clear, the carnivore-section should say something like "negate 1 trait/card for this species' next attack".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trevor Schadt
United States
Glenshaw
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Benji68 wrote:
The "one of your feeding turns" part seems to be definitely wrong. It should say "during your feeding turn".
If that were the wording, there would be confusion about "but you take multiple feeding turns during a round, don't you?"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David A
United States
Yorktown
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Interesting. That's the same wording as the Base Game's Intelligence card as well.

There is another recent thread on here discussing the wording where Dominic pointed out the wording was done this way because of space on the card. That said, he did state that for future iterations of the game, NorthStar will probably word it so that the Carnivore card will specify that it allows for the negation of a Defensive trait.

FWIW, regarding your first thought "during your feeding turn" I whole-heartedly agree. As for the second, I also agree, but space is a premium.

The Base game came with player aid sheets that had examples of all the cards and the instruction book actually went into greater detail for each of the cards where, in the case of Intelligence, it actually did specify what you point out. Does Climate have the same? You can always fall back on the rulebook if it's in there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benji
Switzerland
Gurmels
FR
flag msg tools
visit us on www.muwins.ch
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
ryudoowaru wrote:
Benji68 wrote:
The "one of your feeding turns" part seems to be definitely wrong. It should say "during your feeding turn".
If that were the wording, there would be confusion about "but you take multiple feeding turns during a round, don't you?"


Yes, and that is how it actually works.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
MD
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
North Star Games designs party games that don't suck! Play them with your non-gamer friends over the holidays.
badge
First there was Hearts, then there was Spades, and now we bring you Clubs. The suit of clubs finally gets some respect!
mbmbmbmbmb
Benji68 wrote:
Thanks a lot for clearing it up! So, unfortunately, the card is definitely wrong this time instead of just ambiguous.


I don't see why this is wrong or ambiguous. It seems perfectly right to me! blush

Please explain why there is anything wrong or ambiguous with the current wording. That would be helpful.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benji
Switzerland
Gurmels
FR
flag msg tools
visit us on www.muwins.ch
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Thud105 wrote:
Interesting. That's the same wording as the Base Game's Intelligence card as well.

There is another recent thread on here discussing the wording where Dominic pointed out the wording was done this way because of space on the card. That said, he did state that for future iterations of the game, NorthStar will probably word it so that the Carnivore card will specify that it allows for the negation of a Defensive trait.

FWIW, regarding your first thought "during your feeding turn" I whole-heartedly agree. As for the second, I also agree, but space is a premium.

The Base game came with player aid sheets that had examples of all the cards and the instruction book actually went into greater detail for each of the cards where, in the case of Intelligence, it actually did specify what you point out. Does Climate have the same? You can always fall back on the rulebook if it's in there.


The rulebook is correct, that is why i noticed that either the rulebook or the card had to be wrong. I am just disappointed that the card was not fixed (i did not have the original card in front of me, i was not sure how that one was worded, it just became obvious that the new one was probably wrong again, after rather long discussions in the base game forum).

As for the second change: there would be more than enough space if the wrong part was just left out.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benji
Switzerland
Gurmels
FR
flag msg tools
visit us on www.muwins.ch
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
domcrap wrote:
Benji68 wrote:
Thanks a lot for clearing it up! So, unfortunately, the card is definitely wrong this time instead of just ambiguous.


I don't see why this is wrong or ambiguous. It seems perfectly right to me! blush

Please explain why there is anything wrong or ambiguous with the current wording. That would be helpful.


Again: "During one of your feeding turns.
The rulebook (and the first answer here) says that the trait can be used any number of times until that species is fully fed.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
MD
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
North Star Games designs party games that don't suck! Play them with your non-gamer friends over the holidays.
badge
First there was Hearts, then there was Spades, and now we bring you Clubs. The suit of clubs finally gets some respect!
mbmbmbmbmb
Ahh, I see. I think grammar is correct, but it might be more clear if we wrote "During any one of your feeding turns..."

Right now it just says that you can use this ability during one of your feeding turns. I think that is correct. You are thinking this means "For one of your feeding turns each Feeding Phase..."
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benji
Switzerland
Gurmels
FR
flag msg tools
visit us on www.muwins.ch
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
domcrap wrote:
Ahh, I see. I think grammar is correct, but it might be more clear if we wrote "During any one of your feeding turns..."


No. the "one" would still be just as wrong.

Domcrap wrote:
Right now it just says that you can use this ability during one of your feeding turns. I think that is correct. You are thinking this means "For one of your feeding turns each Feeding Phase..."



Just tell me if the following is correct:

My species A is a carnivore.

I am feeding species A, discarding a card and negating 1 trait of a species i attack. Species A is not fully fed yet.

When it is my turn to feed again, i discard another card (or more) to negate another trait(s) of a species I attack.

If the above is allowed, the card is wrong, because it was used during more than one of my Feeding turns.



Another example: Species A is a non-carnivore.

I am feeding species B, at the same time, i discard a card, giving species A an additional 2 food. Species A is not yet fully fed.

When it is my turn to feed again, i feed species C, again discarding a card and adding 2 food to species A.

Again, if this is allowed, the card is wrong.


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Darcy
Australia
Blue Mountains
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
card wrote:
"Discard a card(s) from your hand during one of your Feeding turns:

That "one" implies that the trait can only be used once for the entire game.

domcrap wrote:
"During any one of your feeding turns..."

This just makes the use only once even stronger. It makes it sound as if the intelligence is used once and discarded. But that makes no sense thematically.

Given this discussion, a better wording might be:
Discard one card from your hand during any of your feeding turns to...

Carnivore: negate any one defensive trait on your prey.
Non Carnivore: Take two food from the foodbank.

This effect only lasts for the feeding turn, but may be repeated each turn

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
MD
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
North Star Games designs party games that don't suck! Play them with your non-gamer friends over the holidays.
badge
First there was Hearts, then there was Spades, and now we bring you Clubs. The suit of clubs finally gets some respect!
mbmbmbmbmb
To me, that "one" means you can use it during any one of your feeding turns, and that the effect does not last to the next feeding turn.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Darcy
Australia
Blue Mountains
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
domcrap wrote:
To me, that "one" means you can use it during any one of your feeding turns, and that the effect does not last to the next feeding turn.


But I am not inside your brain Dom. Just as well it seems a scary place devil

It does not matter what you think it means. It matters what the reader thinks it means.

And this thread tells you there is a disconnect there.
Back in the day when I wrote stuff as part of my job, I got beaten up by this more than a few times.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rex Moore
United States
Woodbridge
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
domcrap wrote:
To me, that "one" means you can use it during any one of your feeding turns, and that the effect does not last to the next feeding turn.


The text is perfectly clear to me as well.

English is weird, and for a single sentence you can sometimes pull several different meanings from it.

But card text can't go through detailed explanations, and once you know the "official ruling" all should be fine.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
MD
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
North Star Games designs party games that don't suck! Play them with your non-gamer friends over the holidays.
badge
First there was Hearts, then there was Spades, and now we bring you Clubs. The suit of clubs finally gets some respect!
mbmbmbmbmb
Benji68 wrote:
domcrap wrote:
Ahh, I see. I think grammar is correct, but it might be more clear if we wrote "During any one of your feeding turns..."


No. the "one" would still be just as wrong.

Domcrap wrote:
Right now it just says that you can use this ability during one of your feeding turns. I think that is correct. You are thinking this means "For one of your feeding turns each Feeding Phase..."



Just tell me if the following is correct:

My species A is a carnivore.

I am feeding species A, discarding a card and negating 1 trait of a species i attack. Species A is not fully fed yet.

When it is my turn to feed again, i discard another card (or more) to negate another trait(s) of a species I attack.

If the above is allowed, the card is wrong, because it was used during more than one of my Feeding turns.



Another example: Species A is a non-carnivore.

I am feeding species B, at the same time, i discard a card, giving species A an additional 2 food. Species A is not yet fully fed.

When it is my turn to feed again, i feed species C, again discarding a card and adding 2 food to species A.

Again, if this is allowed, the card is wrong.


So with your understanding of grammar, does this mean you can use it again on the next round? Or only once during the whole entire game? It sounds like your reading of the grammar makes it so the trait could only be used once a game.

The way I read the grammar, you pay a cost during one of your feeding turns... you get a benefit for each time you paid that cost.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Berry
United States
Denver
CO - Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
It is clear to me and anyone I've taught the game to understands it.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris in Kansai
Japan
Otsu
Shiga
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm new to the game and fwiw, reading the card text for the first time, "one" doesn't seem restrictive. If the meaning was one and only one I'd expect that to be emphasized by bolding, underlining etc.

Still, that's just my own interpretation. As a fix, an infinity symbol on this and any other cards which can be used repeatedly would work for me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benji
Switzerland
Gurmels
FR
flag msg tools
visit us on www.muwins.ch
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
GregDarcy wrote:
card wrote:
"Discard a card(s) from your hand during one of your Feeding turns:

That "one" implies that the trait can only be used once for the entire game.


True, but let's not even go there.


domcrap wrote:
To me, that "one" means you can use it during any one of your feeding turns, and that the effect does not last to the next feeding turn.


Unfortunately you did not comment on my examples. I assume they would be legal.
Being allowed to use something during ONE turn implicitely carries over to the next turn. Otherwise you would use it on more than one turn.
So yes, your understanding would be incorrect too, because according to the rules, it can be used during any feeding turns, not on any ONE.

Let's get back to basics: if i have a basket of apples and i tell you that you may eat one of those apples, how many are you going to eat?

Hint: eating one of the apples carries over, so you are not allowed to just take one more after the first one is gone.


domcrap wrote:

So with your understanding of grammar, does this mean you can use it again on the next round? Or only once during the whole entire game? It sounds like your reading of the grammar makes it so the trait could only be used once a game.

The way I read the grammar, you pay a cost during one of your feeding turns... you get a benefit for each time you paid that cost.


It doesn not matter if i read it as i can be used once per round or once per game. Both would be wrong! The card may be used any number (not ONCE) of times, as long as you can pay for it and as long as the species is not fed. One of multiples means exactly 1 (which is also the correct answer for the number of apples you are allowed to eat).

delewobmesid wrote:
It is clear to me and anyone I've taught the game to understands it.

How many apples would you eat?

But you know what? We (and i mean mostly Dominic) have already been there, and in this thread of the base game he(!) said (correcting the then "not talked-through" original wording):

domcrap wrote:
This is the wording we just gave to our graphic designer:

Discard a card from your hand anytime during Feeding:
Non-Carnivore: Take 2 Plant Food from the Food Bank.
Carnivore: Negate a trait for this species’ next attack.



Which obviously and unfortunately did not happen.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris in Kansai
Japan
Otsu
Shiga
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Benji68 wrote:


Let's get back to basics: if i have a basket of apples and i tell you that you may eat one of those apples, how many are you going to eat?



How about this one?

Patient: Doctor, I keep getting migraines.

Doctor: Here, take a pill during one of your attacks.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benji
Switzerland
Gurmels
FR
flag msg tools
visit us on www.muwins.ch
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Chrysm wrote:
Benji68 wrote:


Let's get back to basics: if i have a basket of apples and i tell you that you may eat one of those apples, how many are you going to eat?



How about this one?

Patient: Doctor, I keep getting migraines.

Doctor: Here, take a pill during one of your attacks.


Again - see above for how the card should be worded according to Dominic himself (by the way, i assume the doctor would put the emphasis on ONE PILL, meaning you shouldn't take more than one during any attack. Also, migraine attacks are isolated incidents. One of them may happen, and you don't know when or if there will be another one. Feeding rounds are a regular occurrence. If you had a chronic digestive problem instead of migraines, your doctor would probably tell you to take one pill with your meals, not just with one of your meals).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris in Kansai
Japan
Otsu
Shiga
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Benji68 wrote:
Chrysm wrote:
Benji68 wrote:


Let's get back to basics: if i have a basket of apples and i tell you that you may eat one of those apples, how many are you going to eat?



How about this one?

Patient: Doctor, I keep getting migraines.

Doctor: Here, take a pill during one of your attacks.


Again - see above for how the card should be worded according to Dominic himself (by the way, i assume the doctor would put the emphasis on ONE PILL, meaning you shouldn't take more than one during any attack).


But your assumption is based merely on your own interpretation. The doc hasn't in any way said that more than one pill is bad. Anyway, before we tumble any further down this particular rabbit hole, my point insofar as there is one is that language is like a bar of wet soap - just when you think you've a firm grip on it, it shoots away.

And agreed, the wording you quote would've been much better.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benji
Switzerland
Gurmels
FR
flag msg tools
visit us on www.muwins.ch
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
See above for an added explanation on what doctors mean


Chrysm wrote:


And agreed, the wording you quote would've been much better.


That is all i am saying. And that i am disappointed that we have been there and that the easy to fix problem was not fixed as promised.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.