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Subject: Are spells subject to hinderence? rss

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Chris Clarke
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Couldn't find the answer.
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anthony dybacz
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Yes, but see the concerntration skill (Hadrathus has this).

Edit: Stephan's answer is more definative.
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Stephan Beal
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aram12 wrote:
Couldn't find the answer.


For Hindrance to affect spells, it would have to be defined how it affects each and every spell individually. Hindrance generally requires spending extra points (movement) or subtracts successes (manipulation). Neither of those generically apply to spells because each spell works differently. Since there is no definition of how Hindrance affects each and every spell, we have to assume that no, Hindrance does not affect spells.

Note, also, that spellcasters tend to have the Concentration skill, which allows them to perform skills (Spellcasting is a skill) without Hindrance penalties.


Edit, based on further input: it's possible that specific spells may be affected by Hindrance, but they would [necessarily] explicitly say so if they are.
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Stephan Beal
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CardboardAnt wrote:
Yes, but see the concerntration skill (Hadrathus has this).


i've gotta ask for a citation regarding the "yes" part.

How is hindrance supposed to affect Teleport, Energy Drain, or Mitra's Halo, for example? Each of those spells works completely differently, and thus would require spell-specific Hindrance descriptions.
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anthony dybacz
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There are tons of spells, some of which may be affected by hinderance (if new rules decide a spell is a ranged attack, for example).
I did say see Hinderance. I also said your answer was more definative

Edit: I meant "I did say see concerntration". Sorry.
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Chris Clarke
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sgbeal wrote:
aram12 wrote:
Couldn't find the answer.


For Hindrance to affect spells, it would have to be defined how it affects each and every spell individually. Hindrance generally requires spending extra points (movement) or subtracts successes (manipulation). Neither of those generically apply to spells because each spell works differently. Since there is no definition of how Hindrance affects each and every spell, we have to assume that no, Hindrance does not affect spells.

Note, also, that spellcasters tend to have the Concentration skill, which allows them to perform skills (Spellcasting is a skill) without Hindrance penalties.


Edit, based on further input: it's possible that specific spells may be affected by Hindrance, but they would [necessarily] explicitly say so if they are.


That's exactly how I was grasping the inconsistency.

Though, frankly, I was expecting a ruling by the designers that said the opposite, especially considering the Concentration Skill.
 
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Stephan Beal
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aram12 wrote:
Though, frankly, I was expecting a ruling by the designers that said the opposite, especially considering the Concentration Skill.


Keep in mind that Haddy can teleport into a room, loot its chest (ignoring any enemies because of his Concentration), and teleport back out. That's how i've been making use of his Teleport/Concentration combo.
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Chris Clarke
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Interesting. And Teleportation is not movement so you can perform it after other actions.
 
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Stephan Beal
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aram12 wrote:
Interesting. And Teleportation is not movement so you can perform it after other actions.


One notable caveat: if he loots too much, he loses both his Spellcasting and Concentration skills. So don't get greedy!
 
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Chris Clarke
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aram12 wrote:
Interesting. And Teleportation is not movement so you can perform it after other actions.


Actually, my point here is moot. I forgot, you can pay for movement with gems after an action...
 
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Frank BLACKFIRE
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10-28-2016 : From Monolith website in the french comments of the scenario "In the Clutches of the Picts" :

"Le phénomène de gêne n’influe pas sur le coût de lancement d’un sort"= Hindering does not affect the cost of spell casting.
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Chris Clarke
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Merci beaucoup.
 
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anthony dybacz
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Pallantides wrote:

10-28-2016 : From Monolith website in the french comments of the scenario "In the Clutches of the Picts" :

"Le phénomène de gêne n’influe pas sur le coût de lancement d’un sort"= Hindering does not affect the cost of spell casting.


But hindering does not affect the cost of a ranged attack, either, so (barring a translation/context issue) this does not help.

The English rules state: Hindering Die Rolls, p.13 Hero Book;
...when that character rolls dice, ignore a number of symbols equal to the difference. Melee attack, Guard, and Reroll actions as well as falling damage are not affected by hindering."

According to this, any time dice are rolled you are hindered; which makes sense that Spellcasters have Concentration.
 
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Stephan Beal
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CardboardAnt wrote:
The English rules state: Hindering Die Rolls, p.13 Hero Book;
...when that character rolls dice, ignore a number of symbols equal to the difference. Melee attack, Guard, and Reroll actions as well as falling damage are not affected by hindering."


The rules also explicitly state, in the corresponding rulebook sections, which actions are and are not affected by hindering. For spells, they don't mention it. Each spell functions differently, so "reducing successes" is not generically meaningful for spells. e.g. Teleport and Mitra's Halo. i.e. without a per-spell definition of how hindrance affects them, it cannot meaningfully affect spells.
 
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anthony dybacz
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The same can be said about skills and cautious stance though; we already know that a 'blanket rule' does not apply...
 
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Stephan Beal
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CardboardAnt wrote:
The same can be said about skills and cautious stance though; we already know that a 'blanket rule' does not apply...


Think about it logically: how is hindering supposed to affect spells, seeing as each spell works differently? The hindering penalty would necessarily work differently on each and every spell. There is no current spell which lists such a penalty. i.e. there is no generic hindering penalty on spells. If you can find one, or propose one which works consistently for each and every spell (without modifying the text of each spell), please point it out.
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anthony dybacz
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Could hindering not effect spells that roll dice and not effect spells that dont?
That would leave all the spells that say 'attack' except 2; Mitra's Healing and Ymir's rage.
So, you cannot see any possibility of attack spells being hindered?

This would be consistent with the 'hindering die rolls' rule and the spellcasters having concentration skill.
 
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Stephan Beal
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CardboardAnt wrote:
Could hindering not effect spells that roll dice and not effect spells that dont?
That would leave all the spells that say 'attack' except 2; Mitra's Healing and Ymir's rage.
So, you cannot see any possibility of attack spells being hindered?


It can't happen consistently (i.e. same effect on all spells), and therefore would require a detail/complexity level which is highly uncharacteristic for this game.

Let's take Mitra's Halo for example: it costs (IIRC) 3 gems and has an exertion limit of 3. If we apply movement-style hindrance to it, it cannot be cast under 1 hindrance because doing so would require more gems than the exertion limit. We cannot possibly apply "subtract successes" to it because that simply doesn't apply to that spell.

Then there are 20+ other spells, many of which behave differently in terms of energy/successes (e.g. Energy Drain).

There's simply no way in Cimmeria that the intent of this particular game is to have that much complexity.
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anthony dybacz
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Mitra's halo is not an attack spell and neither does it roll dice...

Edit: there are 2 types of hindering in this game; hindering movement and hindering dice. Hindering movement is specific to movement. Hindering dice is specific to dice rolls.

For the arguement that it cannot happen consistently to all spells, I would again refer you to cautious stance and skill use...
 
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Stephan Beal
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CardboardAnt wrote:
For the arguement that it cannot happen consistently to all spells, I would again refer you to cautious stance and skill use...


Passive/reactive skills can trigger (as opposed to being actively used) when cautious. That, to me, is not a contradiction/inconsistency because they are passive/reactive.

There is one seeming inconsistency caused by a mistranslation: Bodyguard allows one to defend another character and is allowed when Cautious because the French version (reportedly) says that defense and rerolls (as opposed to "Guard and rerolls") are legal when cautious.

i see neither contradiction nor inconsistency there.
 
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anthony dybacz
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Can you show me in the rules where it talks about passive/reactive skills?
You know my feelings on this point; I brought it up. But we both know it is not there, though it should be.

On the point of spells, I am not saying that they are explict in the rules, either. But you cannot claim that passive/reactive skills make logical sense (without any indication in the skills other than our own judgement) and then on the other hand claim that there cannot possibly be different types of spell and that there is no possibility of having rules that affect some without the others.

I am not claming that spells being hindered will be in the rewrite. I suspect that it was in there at some point in the design process (Spellcasters with concentration when all it is currently really used for is picking locks?) and I also think it should be the case.

There are things in the design of the game that simply are not made explicit in the rules.
 
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Stephan Beal
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CardboardAnt wrote:
Can you show me in the rules where it talks about passive/reactive skills?


No, i can't - it was clarified in threads here on BGG by BadKam (from Monolith). Edit: thread 1659148.

That said, i don't consider those to be exceptions to the Cautious Stance rule. Passive skills, by definition, are "always on," and reactive skills, by definition, do not trigger actively - they are an automatic response to outside stimuli, and therefore there's no justification for them being "off" when Cautious. Yes, i wish that Monolith had seen fit to explicitly flag which skills are active, passive, and reactive, but it doesn't take much analysis to figure out which ones fall into which category.

CardboardAnt wrote:
There are things in the design of the game that simply are not made explicit in the rules.


Which means, by definition, that they're not part of the rules. My point being: if it's not in the rules, and logically cannot possibly be an issue (see my arguments above against hindrance of spells), then there's no reason which it needs to be explicitly stated as such.

Hindrance is explicitly mentioned for every major actions heroes can take (movement, melee, ranged combat, defense, rerolls, manipulation). The fact that it's not mentioned for spells is not an oversight, it's an implicit statement that hindrance is not a consideration for spells (and that it possibly never came up as a question during playtesting, or else they may have seen fit to explicitly say "not affected").
 
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anthony dybacz
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sgbeal wrote:

That said, i don't consider those to be exceptions to the Cautious Stance rule. Passive skills, by definition, are "always on," and reactive skills, by definition, do not trigger actively

But they are not defined, thats the point...
The very idea that there might possibly be a concept of passive and active skills is not even mention, implied or hinted at. Its come about AFTER the fact (and as you said, there are still imperfect anomolies - I can use Bodyguard but not Leadership? How does that make sense?).
The rules are very explict about what is an action and skills are not listed.

But this has been debated and resolved, I offer it only as a case of logical inconsistency.

sgbeal wrote:

Hindrance is explicitly mentioned for every major actions heroes can take (movement, melee, ranged combat, defense, rerolls, manipulation). The fact that it's not mentioned for spells is not an oversight, it's an implicit statement that hindrance is not a consideration for spells (and that it possibly never came up as a question during playtesting, or else they may have seen fit to explicitly say "not affected").


Its not explictly mentioned in the falling damage section, either; it is mentioned as an exception only in the 'hindering dice rolls' section.
They specifically mention all the main rules and whether they are effected by hindering or not except falling damage.
One could just as easily make the assumption that those things NOT stated as an exception in the Hindering Dice Rolls section ARE hindered (especially those things on p.18-19, of which falling damage is one). It is logically consistent in the rules that ALL dice rolls except Melee, Guard, Reroll and falling damage are hindered.

To dig into the nuance of the rules further, spells are an 'Asset Card' and some dice rolls on some assest cards ARE effected by hindering and some are not. The explosive orb is a case in point; that there are 2 rolls: one of manipulation (hindered) and one of damage (not hindered); no other action in the game works like this (as attack roll IS a damage roll) and the rules are not explict that this is how the item works. By a reading of the card the damage roll counts as a manipulation roll and so should be hindered...

The rules are not logically set out, so claiming that something makes perfect sense AFTER the fact seems to me a little backwards to me (that some skills are effected by cautious stance and some not was clearly not a consideration, or they would have said so...).

I admit, at this point I am merely playing Devil's Advocate with the rules but only because a) by debating this stuff you learn the nuance of the game better and b) I love this game and I want it to be enjoyable to as many as possible so inconsistencies should be pointed out and gaps plugged.

No offence or ill will intended or thought

 
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CK Lai
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sgbeal wrote:
Keep in mind that Haddy can teleport into a room, loot its chest (ignoring any enemies because of his Concentration), and teleport back out. That's how i've been making use of his Teleport/Concentration combo.


Yikes. I really overlooked that application of his "concentration" skill... (looting).
 
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anthony dybacz
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Chinkster wrote:

Yikes. I really overlooked that application of his "concentration" skill... (looting).


Out of curiosity, how have you been making use of his concentration skill?
 
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