Adam "Rolling Solo" Smith
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Hi All,

If you're not a Canadian run away, stop reading, you're welcome. If you're a Canadian and pledged for the original SOB, stop reading, you're also welcome. If you're a Canadian and didn't pledge for the original SOB and bought everything (or basically everything) for SOB from retail to date...this is more aimed at you!

Here goes...

So I did a bit of number crunching in relation to the Shogun level pledge and did some thinking in terms of this Kickstarter as it would relate to Canadians, pricing and content. Obviously the pricing I've listed may be different at whichever local retailer or online shop you use but this is pretty close estimate I feel.

Early Bird Shogun Level Pledge plus Canadian shipping ($295USD+60USD) = $475.00 CAD

The shipping cost could change but I leaned more towards the higher worst case scenario with $60USD. I believe 70 or 75USD is what the Kickstarter said so I went a tad lower.

Content I'd need to buy retail if I went for the Sumo pledge so far in Canadian dollars when comparing to current prices retail are roughly as follows before tax:

$70 Expansion
$18 Mites
$18 Thunder Warriors
$18 Tongue Demons
$27 Phoenix
$18 Takobake Rifleman
$18 Scourge Dead
$18 Goryu
$15 Red Ronin
------
$220 CDN + tax
+ Sumo Pledge ($200 CDN)
------
$420 CDN + tax

So at this moment in time I've come to this conclusion. If I don't back at Shogun level the main things I lose out on are a few allies/alt characters so far. I really don't care about a handful of alternates I really don't need. So I could spend $475CDN now and wait until 2018 to receive more content for Brimstone (hoping I'm still as crazy about the game at that point as I am now). Or I could get the Sumo pledge now and use the 275CDN difference in my pocket to purchase all the content I missed out on coming from Wave 2 of the first Kickstarer (excluding Wave 1.0 and 1.5 as I already have all of that). Meaning I get $275 worth of content now versus waiting almost two years from now.

Hmmm

My mind says I'd rather get Brimstone content releasing in literally a month or two so I can immediately boost my game....and go for Sumo on Forbidden Fortress. Then pickup items after based on what's worth it and what's not.

The one thing that may sway it...but still likely won't is if the cost to purchase retail totals higher than $600+CDN total. At that point it would cost me around $180+ out of pocket in two years....but I don't see this as an issue. I would have just got a boat load of Wave 2.0 items purchased from retail right away...no waiting.

I'm just having a hard time justifying a Shogun pledge and having to wait almost two years vs. buying a boat load of new content within two months retail and maybe paying a couple hundred in the future extra to complete my Sumo.

Curious as to others thoughts on what your doing...and why..
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Adria D
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I don't know if FoFo will hit retail much sooner than it gets to backers. Given that pledges are being packaged up in China before being sent to distribution hubs, there's not as much incentive to send out large shipments of smaller bits and pieces months ahead of time. It appears (for now) that they're planning to have the production of everything wrap up at around the same time. Having huge chunks of it done significantly far in advance would wrack up a fair bit in storage fees. That's my guess, anyway.

The currency exchange rate and/or much smaller discounts in Canadian online stores generally means we don't get as good a deal at retail as Americans do. I've noticed SoB expansions tend to come out in Canada a lot slower too. Having a US shipping address, I generally order my SoB stuff from MM (unless I or a friend is at PAX - I've paid full MSRP for many things there). I usually come out a few dollars ahead, ordering from MM over a Canadian store, but it's still pricey.

Looking at where the KS is headed, I think the Shogun level will be worth it to me. I'm paying for US shipping, then whatever bit of customs gets added on that. Your estimated value of buying everything in retail doesn't include shipping - shipping in Canada isn't cheap, and free shipping thresholds tend to be high. I also suspect there will be a fair number more

Honestly, after spending as much as I have on SoB at retail so far, I need a price break. I've done the 'pay more at retail to get it sooner' thing with SoB so far, now I need a break. A break on cost, and a break on time and effort piecing it all together. I'm just going to 'set it and forget it' this time, and not have to worry about anything until a big box of awesome arrives. I'm OK with getting this one later, if that's what it comes down to, in exchange for putting less time and money into acquiring everything.
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Adam "Rolling Solo" Smith
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You're right that Canadian retailers usually see SOB stuff a little bit later than the U.S. But it tends to still be before backers get it. I didn't factor in the delivery cost as SOB items are expensive and usually a person would bundle $150-$200 worth before ordering to ensure free delivery if going that route.

Your point about where the KS is headed is valid still. It could turn out that Shogun ends up being enough to justify the money up front and the wait. But they've gone a different direction this time by having everyone pony up big time at the beginning. It may or may not be as good of a deal as the original KS.

Guess it remains to be seen!

I'm holding a Shogun at the moment, but it may change depending...
 
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JD Snider
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How are you estimating your retail prices for the additional content? Based on the MRSP on the website and the prices that the current SOB stuff goes for in stores I think your estimates might be a few dollars too low. Not too big a deal on an individual item, but it does start to add up if you're buying multiple items.
 
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Dean L
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Spider Queen is in Sumo.

The other thing to watch for is if there's anything not included in Sumo that likely won't go to retail, and might be costly to import via the FFP store.

Also bear in mind that once it's done, the content will probably be around two years worth of retail products. Assuming no clusterfuck this time, even if we get the base games a few months late, you'll get some of the enemy expansions years ahead of when they hit retail .
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Angelus Seniores
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there are a few things wrong in your assesment;
-this KS will not have 2 waves of shipping, ie it is very unlikely that any stuff of FOFO will be available at retail before backers get theirs. with the OG SOB, its the wave 1.5 and huge delay that enabled lots of retail stuff before backers got theirs: that is not FFP's plan this time around.

-even with OG SOB's delay, the backers still get a lot of extra content before these hit retail: all the mission packs, blasted wastes/derelict ship otherworlds and some more, so getting things early is certainly not ensured at all. so sure some stuff they got late, but some is still early.

-you are likely to pay much more shipping on what you buy in retail than from the KS, unless for a big order with free shipping but that only applies if you wait until enough stuff is in retail to be worth it given how piecemeal new packs are released. likely not all of OG SOB will be yet in retail when FOFO delivers

-retail prices may go up as time passes/the packs get a few design tweaks increasing the value.
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Brant Benoit
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I wonder where you're ordering from that it actually costs you LESS to order out of the US??

http://www.meeplemart.com/store/Search.aspx?SearchTerms=shad...

This is why I haven't bothered to Kickstart anything in over two years. With the exchange rate, duty fees and cost of shipping, it's NEVER been cheaper to buy through KS than retail within Canada.

Sure, you might get a few exclusives, but for myself, those don't offset the cost of being hosed with shipping duties, and exchange rates.

I would have pledged but the shipping cost, and it being shipped from a US hub (even more fees to add) has completely turned me off. Well, that and the cost of a Shogun pledge with shipping and duty is just WAY too much. And the Sumo doesn't add enough content that I'd want to pay that much just to ship it. Alternate gender heroes do not make the pledge worthwhile IMHO.
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Brant Benoit
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Doing a quick calculation at a 35% exchange rate (currently hovering around 34% or so), and with shipping, the Shogun pledge is $506.25CAD.

You're off by quite a bit. This also doesn't include the duties, which will amount to a minimum of around $27CAD.

So, in total, the Shogun is going to cost you $533.25CAD at minimum.

Too rich for me, unfortunately. If the Sumo pledge goes up a bit, I might go for it. But at the moment, it's far too much to spend on a single game. And don't even get me started on the quality of their minis, because that would reduce the value even further for me.

It would seem it's better/cheaper to just get it at retail if you're Canadian.
 
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Adria D
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Ghool wrote:
I wonder where you're ordering from that it actually costs you LESS to order out of the US??

My husband's work has a US forwarding address that they're allowed to use for personal use. We only have to pay customs.

I've found that in most cases, discounts at MM and CSI are deep enough that, combined with free shipping at $100, it's still cheaper than buying in Canada, despite the exchange rate. Not a huge amount cheaper, but several dollars + earlier arrival (at US stores) + lower free shipping thresholds make it worthwhile for us. Their sales tend to be better than Canadian store sales too.
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Adam "Rolling Solo" Smith
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Angelsenior wrote:
there are a few things wrong in your assesment;
-this KS will not have 2 waves of shipping, ie it is very unlikely that any stuff of FOFO will be available at retail before backers get theirs. with the OG SOB, its the wave 1.5 and huge delay that enabled lots of retail stuff before backers got theirs: that is not FFP's plan this time around.

-even with OG SOB's delay, the backers still get a lot of extra content before these hit retail: all the mission packs, blasted wastes/derelict ship otherworlds and some more, so getting things early is certainly not ensured at all. so sure some stuff they got late, but some is still early.

-you are likely to pay much more shipping on what you buy in retail than from the KS, unless for a big order with free shipping but that only applies if you wait until enough stuff is in retail to be worth it given how piecemeal new packs are released. likely not all of OG SOB will be yet in retail when FOFO delivers

-retail prices may go up as time passes/the packs get a few design tweaks increasing the value.


- Shipping in two waves wasn't part of the calculation

- Depends of whether you backed the original KS or not and where you are with your collection

- Shipping isn't an issue as most sites offer free shipping over $150-$200CDN and buying SOB content doesn't take much to hit that threshold.

-Retail prices aren't going to change by more than a couple dollars if anything at all. Doesn't change the numbers enough to matter.
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Adam "Rolling Solo" Smith
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Ghool wrote:
I wonder where you're ordering from that it actually costs you LESS to order out of the US??

http://www.meeplemart.com/store/Search.aspx?SearchTerms=shad...

This is why I haven't bothered to Kickstart anything in over two years. With the exchange rate, duty fees and cost of shipping, it's NEVER been cheaper to buy through KS than retail within Canada.

Sure, you might get a few exclusives, but for myself, those don't offset the cost of being hosed with shipping duties, and exchange rates.

I would have pledged but the shipping cost, and it being shipped from a US hub (even more fees to add) has completely turned me off. Well, that and the cost of a Shogun pledge with shipping and duty is just WAY too much. And the Sumo doesn't add enough content that I'd want to pay that much just to ship it. Alternate gender heroes do not make the pledge worthwhile IMHO.


One example of many..
http://www.boardgamebliss.com/search?x=0&y=0&q=shadows+of+br...
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Joe Price
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So that's your equivalent of MM or CSI. Roughly 30% off MSRP after currency conversion.
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Brant Benoit
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rpvt wrote:
So that's your equivalent of MM or CSI. Roughly 30% off MSRP after currency conversion.


It's closer to a direct conversion of the US MSRP to CAD.
A Warmachine model that is $35 US MSRP, costs $34.95 CAD. Board games it's a little bit more. But, I think that's due to the lower margins on board games.
 
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Adam "Rolling Solo" Smith
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quazai wrote:
How are you estimating your retail prices for the additional content? Based on the MRSP on the website and the prices that the current SOB stuff goes for in stores I think your estimates might be a few dollars too low. Not too big a deal on an individual item, but it does start to add up if you're buying multiple items.


I got my estimates based on SOB content in Canadian online stores based on size of model and how many models in boxes. So I compared them with current retail prices. Also for mini bosses like Red Ronin($15), he will likely be combined with another set of six or so minions($18) and become a deluxe expansion pack. Using BoardGameBliss as an example, their deluxe boxes are 36.95CDN but I've seen some other online stores in Canada at $32CDN. Well 18+15 = $33CDN. So my estimates are pretty close estimate to current rates.

At the end of the day prices may be a dollar higher or lower. But it doesn't make much of a difference with SOB content as it is expensive regardless.

The key point of the post was if you're not an original backer of the first KS and live in Canada, why dump money for a Shogun pledge when the benefits are only getting some alternate characters and allies. When instead you can use the difference in money you save getting a Sumo to buy $275CDN of soon to be released SOB content hitting retail in a month or two.

Also, on another train of thought, one of the key issues which is plaguing this current KS and causing it to hit the wall and stall is all the fans of the previous KS have emptied their wallets for Shogun in the first 48 hours. But the new player base is saying "hell no" to putting $300USD + 10-125USD shipping into a KS when there is enough new content coming to retail shortly. By FFP starting this KS right at the retail release of additional content they've shot themselves in the foot and lost the hungry new players who'd rather go buy SOB content in stores or wait a month for even more new content to hit retail. They've killed potential new business and larger pledges for this new KS because of it. It's kinda sad to watch how bad it's being handled being a fan of the game myself.

They should have released the current content from Wave 2.0, took a break or worked on another game and then come back in six months with this current KS. It would have been a much smarter business move imo. There would have been a ton of hungry new players bored with Wave 2.0 content and hungry for more.
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Joe Price
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Ghool wrote:
rpvt wrote:
So that's your equivalent of MM or CSI. Roughly 30% off MSRP after currency conversion.


It's closer to a direct conversion of the US MSRP to CAD.
A Warmachine model that is $35 US MSRP, costs $34.95 CAD. Board games it's a little bit more. But, I think that's due to the lower margins on board games.


For current conversion, USD100=CAD$134,30% off=CAD94. The site you linked had a core set for CAD90, so pretty close.

I would guess it is by far easier for them to discount off of their CAD costs instead of continually changing prices based upon conversion rates. (That will naturally occur when they're buying in CAD.)

Since USD1 is CAD1.34 right now, it's hard to tell which way it does work.
 
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Adria D
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unequalled wrote:
The key point of the post was if you're not an original backer of the first KS and live in Canada, why dump money for a Shogun pledge when the benefits are only getting some alternate characters and allies. When instead you can use the difference in money you save getting a Sumo to buy $275CDN of soon to be released SOB content hitting retail in a month or two.

Because we want/plan to do both?

I'm sure I'm not the only person who is backing at the Shogun level and planning to periodically add stuff to my SoB collection as it becomes available. In fact I know I'm not, as a friend of mine is doing the same thing.

You also forgot a benefit: having everything arrive on your doorstep in one box, from one simple order. No piecing bits and pieces together across many separate orders to get everything.
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Robert
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Adria wrote:
unequalled wrote:
The key point of the post was if you're not an original backer of the first KS and live in Canada, why dump money for a Shogun pledge when the benefits are only getting some alternate characters and allies. When instead you can use the difference in money you save getting a Sumo to buy $275CDN of soon to be released SOB content hitting retail in a month or two.

Because we want/plan to do both?

I'm sure I'm not the only person who is backing at the Shogun level and planning to periodically add stuff to my SoB collection as it becomes available. In fact I know I'm not, as a friend of mine is doing the same thing.

You also forgot a benefit: having everything arrive on your doorstep in one box, from one simple order. No piecing bits and pieces together across many separate orders to get everything.


You aren't the only person - I am also that person. So, now you know two people, at least.
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Robert
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unequalled wrote:
...
The key point of the post was if you're not an original backer of the first KS and live in Canada, why dump money for a Shogun pledge when the benefits are only getting some alternate characters and allies. ...


But you't not JUST getting some alternate characters and allies. You're getting lots of monsters - like LOTS of extra monsters.

And not just enemies, you're getting 4 entirely new hero classes (enforcer, geisha, soldier, kitsune).

I think SUMO is fine too, you get lots including the Cards and those NINJAs and possibly the Otherworld and Dragon, if we get that unlocked. BUT - I see a lot of extra value in the Shogun.

I know that wasn't entirely your point, but I do intend on getting the original SoB AND this FoFo stuff, and I'm very happy to save some $$, get some exclusive stuff by being a KS Supporter.

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Dean L
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unequalled wrote:

-Retail prices aren't going to change by more than a couple dollars if anything at all. Doesn't change the numbers enough to matter.


Well unless FFP adopt a Asmodee style approach to retail over the next year or so, preventing the deep discounting. This saw FFG game prices spike by a significant amount.

Unlikely? Well yeah. Unless FFP are bought out by Asmodee which is a possibility worth considering.
 
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Twizted Nature
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I'm glad that I'm not the only Canadian facing this dilemma right now. I really want to back this game, and the expansion as well. The only thing is, I don't care for majority of the stretch goals. I don't have an issue backing at the Sumo pledge if I could add on the expansion, which would probably be about $180 USD + shipping, except that you can't! You'd have to back at a minimum $300 if you want the expansion..... Just seems a bit bonkers to me.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but I don't see an add-on option for the expansion, and I can't justify adding 2x the value of the core game for the expansion....

Regarding shipping, I'm honestly surprised they haven't gotten Canada friendly shipping options, which is another deal breaker for me. (Black Plague cost $25 USD for shipping, and that was a lot of content...)
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Brant Benoit
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TwiztedNature wrote:
I'm glad that I'm not the only Canadian facing this dilemma right now. I really want to back this game, and the expansion as well. The only thing is, I don't care for majority of the stretch goals. I don't have an issue backing at the Sumo pledge if I could add on the expansion, which would probably be about $180 USD + shipping, except that you can't! You'd have to back at a minimum $300 if you want the expansion..... Just seems a bit bonkers to me.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but I don't see an add-on option for the expansion, and I can't justify adding 2x the value of the core game for the expansion....

Regarding shipping, I'm honestly surprised they haven't gotten Canada friendly shipping options, which is another deal breaker for me. (Black Plague cost $25 USD for shipping, and that was a lot of content...)


If my buddy running his Kickstarter can offer world-wide duty-free shipping for Strange Aeons then I have no idea why FFP is having trouble finding some one in the Great White North to handle the Canadian logistics.
Or, why it wasn't even a consideration is odd.

And yeah, that's my biggest contention with it as well - no middle level where I can just get the game and expansion with a few stretch goals. I honestly think they could have done a much better job of structuring this instead of emulating their previous Kickstarter.

I'm still willing to wait and see. But, based on the fist SoB campaign, I don't see this one being any different. And that's the whole reason I skipped out on the first one as well.
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Twizted Nature
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They added an option to add on the expansion for $70 USD, which is surprising. Now to see if they can actually get Canada friendly shipping, and I'll be happy to back it.
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Brant Benoit
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TwiztedNature wrote:
They added an option to add on the expansion for $70 USD, which is surprising. Now to see if they can actually get Canada friendly shipping, and I'll be happy to back it.


There's probably only about 20 of us who will order it.
But, still! whistle
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Jason Hill
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Just added Canada Friendly Shipping to the Forbidden Fortress KS Campaign!

-Jason
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