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Viper .
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Just look at Descent 2nd Edition, Gears of War, and the new Doom board game as examples. These games are priced incredibly low for the quality of components they offer. Meanwhile, Kickstarter dungeon crawlers often just start at $100 for the core game and usually an additional $200-$300 or more to get everything (which a lot of people buy because they don't wanna feel like they are missing out). Meanwhile, you can easily find most FFG crawlers for 30% off their retail prices at many resellers. Don't get me wrong, I love the dungeon crawlers on Kickstarter w/ their KS exclusives, but they seem very overpriced compared to FFG crawlers.

Opinions?
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Kyle
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Economy of scale.
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Chengkai Yang
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What, they cost the same in the end. Get all the expansions and your looking at a few hundred bucks. Super Dungeon Explore sets you back as much as Descent does.

I do wish FFG would do another complete set of investigator minis again. I hate trying to get individual ones because it really sucks when your missing people.

As for scale, YMMV. KS offers better insights into quantity whereas FFG typically under produces the initial waves. Where they have much lower costs are in permanent full time artists, HR, support, and the like. For some of their bigger projects, they're also paying royalties to someone else, former GW, Disney, Id, etc.
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Jeff Wood
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Obviously Kickstarter publishers are ripping you off and overcharging you for quality components.

Or the publisher isn't as skilled as some *cough* FFG *cough* in negotiating production pricing with the corrupt industry of manufacturing.

arrrh
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Kyle
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Cinnibar wrote:
Obviously Kickstarter publishers are ripping you off and overcharging you for quality components.

Or the publisher isn't as skilled as some *cough* FFG *cough* in negotiating production pricing with the corrupt industry of manufacturing.

arrrh


In order to negotiate you need to have something the other wants. Factories will want FFG around for continued business, a small guy, he is literally nothing.
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John Gosland
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Chengkai, good news, FFG are doing a new run for the investigators and monsters. I recently saw an ad for an Australian store claiming availability Oct/Nov. It seems this is in line with the release of Mansions v2.
 
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Jonathan Thwaites
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Kickstarter publishers have to base all their assumptions on a production run of 1500 games (the minimum amount most manufactures will make). They have not made a name for themselves yet, and so can not afford large production runs.

On the other hand, a company like FFG is well established. People will purchase even a mediocre game from them purely because of the power of the FFG brand name. They will do a production run of 30,000 games to start.

Every time you double the amount of games being made, the total cost of production per game is reduced to about 90% of it's previous amount.

This means that if it takes somebody releasing a game on kickstarter $10 to get a game produced at 1,500 units, it would cost FFG $6.50 to get the same game produced at 30,000 units.

In other words, to make 1500 units, the production cost would be $15,000 (a fair amount of money for most of us), but to make 30,000 units would cost $65,000. This is 4.3 times the cost, for 20 times the produced volume.

If you doubt my numbers, make an account with panda game manufacturing (it's free), and ask them for production costs on a game per volume.
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Pete
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Not really surprising at all. Even at identical print runs, FFG would be a lot cheaper.

Pete (knows the power of a decent supply chain)
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Garth Tams
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Viper5121 wrote:
Just look at Descent 2nd Edition, Gears of War, and the new Doom board game as examples. These games are priced incredibly low for the quality of components they offer. Meanwhile, Kickstarter dungeon crawlers often just start at $100 for the core game and usually an additional $200-$300 or more to get everything (which a lot of people buy because they don't wanna feel like they are missing out). Meanwhile, you can easily find most FFG crawlers for 30% off their retail prices at many resellers. Don't get me wrong, I love the dungeon crawlers on Kickstarter w/ their KS exclusives, but they seem very overpriced compared to FFG crawlers.

Opinions?


Funny you mention Descent 2.0. When I place all the expansions and addons for Descent 2.0 into the shopping cart it comes to over $1,100.00

In general, its strange that a company that has a very large share of the board game market, can make games cheaper than a company that in some cases doesnt even have a slice, or a crumb. It's almost like its a fluke.
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Lluluien
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Cinnibar wrote:
Obviously Kickstarter publishers are ripping you off and overcharging you for quality components.

Or the publisher isn't as skilled as some *cough* FFG *cough* in negotiating production pricing with the corrupt industry of manufacturing.

arrrh


I'm not sure how anyone in the US could ever talk about the corrupt industry of manufacturing when I think we're the ones that put the capital C in Corruption in the finance industry.
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Jason Farris
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What surprises me is that an established publisher like FFG can consistently come out with terrible rules and broken games just like a small publisher kickstarter.

I actually see the comparison favoring kickstarter. FFG maybe a pittance cheaper, but many of their games are a waste of cardboard just like a lot of kickstarter games.
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Mabuchi wrote:
In general, its strange that a company that has a very large share of the board game market, can make games cheaper than a company that in some cases doesnt even have a slice, or a crumb. It's almost like its a fluke.

It's really weird. It's almost like some companies are using Kickstarter not just as a system to sell their games, but also to raise the necessary capital to produce the game in the first place. To "kickstart" the production process, as it were.
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John Prewitt
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I don't get why it would be surprising at all lol... It's almost like asking why it's cheaper to buy bananas from Costco than at Vons or whatever you have near you.
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Iori Yagami
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>FFG
>great components
pick one

No really, just WHEN will you have usable box inserts? Their chits look lame with that criss-cross embossed pattern and overly dark printing. Cards feel off, oily or film-covered or something, and often flimsy. (And their print-on-demand cards is just bad - even lettering is fuzzy). Cardboard chits split at edges. Just about any game (by a well known publisher, we don't take "mom-and-pops boardgameshack" here) I touched is better than this. I don't really care about plastic figurines.
The only thing they do better than others is sheer number of full-fledged illustrations (as opposed to icons and adobe flash-like low color count drawings on most others) on everything. (But it doesn't matter, since you often can't even see the artwork all that well due to lame printing and tiny sizes of the bits themselves).
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draxx01 wrote:
What, they cost the same in the end. Get all the expansions and your looking at a few hundred bucks. Super Dungeon Explore sets you back as much as Descent does.
What? I bought a store copy of SDE and got basically half a game. No variety at all. With a base box of Descent one can play for months and each game would be different. What I learned is never buy a game that comes from KS.
 
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borsook wrote:
draxx01 wrote:
What, they cost the same in the end. Get all the expansions and your looking at a few hundred bucks. Super Dungeon Explore sets you back as much as Descent does.
What? I bought a store copy of SDE and got basically half a game. No variety at all. With a base box of Descent one can play for months and each game would be different. What I learned is never buy a game that comes from KS.

Or you can view it as every game the same.
 
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Viper5121 wrote:
Just look at Descent 2nd Edition, Gears of War, and the new Doom board game as examples. These games are priced incredibly low for the quality of components they offer.


The Mansions of Madness 2nd edition miniatures don't compare to, say, Cthulhu War's miniatures, and certainly not to CMON miniatures. You also don't get as many miniatures for $100 on a FFG game versus a $100 CMON KS. The Runebound 3rd edition miniatures were a noticeable improvement over 2nd edition, and the Imperial Assault miniatures are *really* nice (even if you're paying $10 for a single miniature in the expansion packs).

fwiw, FFG uses the traditional retailer-distributor system, so has to give them their chunk of profits. Typical discounts are 40% off MSRP. KS projects don't do this, so can pass on savings to the backers.

I just buy what I like at a good price, though. While I've bought miniatures in bulk on KS, FFG's miniature-less Eldritch Horror is one of my favorite games. Hope the AH card game plays well, too.
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Viper .
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Sam and Max wrote:
Viper5121 wrote:
Just look at Descent 2nd Edition, Gears of War, and the new Doom board game as examples. These games are priced incredibly low for the quality of components they offer.


The Mansions of Madness 2nd edition miniatures don't compare to, say, Cthulhu War's miniatures, and certainly not to CMON miniatures. You also don't get as many miniatures for $100 on a FFG game versus a $100 CMON KS. The Runebound 3rd edition miniatures were a noticeable improvement over 2nd edition, and the Imperial Assault miniatures are *really* nice (even if you're paying $10 for a single miniature in the expansion packs).

fwiw, FFG uses the traditional retailer-distributor system, so has to give them their chunk of profits. Typical discounts are 40% off MSRP. KS projects don't do this, so can pass on savings to the backers.

I just buy what I like at a good price, though. While I've bought miniatures in bulk on KS, FFG's miniature-less Eldritch Horror is one of my favorite games. Hope the AH card game plays well, too.


The new Doom game from FFG has VERY impressive miniatures and great artwork. FFG ain't playing around no more! Mansions of Madness has great artwork to but I admit the minis are just satisfactory. But with the Doom game it seems FFG is looking directly to compete with CMON. It'll be interesting to see how the competition plays out over the next few years.
 
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CARL SKUTSCH
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FFG uses baby labor, hundreds of the little buggers. Doesn't even have to pay them, puts little plastic lollypops just out of reach so the poor little tykes keep crawling towards them on these treadmills that power mammoth evil plastic ejecting, smoke spewing machines; think Fisher-Price meets Barad-dûr, only with more diaper smell and less lava. Delivery costs are kept dirt cheap by using cyborg pelicans, their cerebral cortexes replaced by Galaxy Note 7s (when the birds skulls occasionally explode from the bad batteries, copies of Descent 2.0 come raining down on hapless citizens.) All the while the Evil Eye gazes out across the land, looking for new game concepts to exploit.
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skutsch wrote:
FFG uses baby labor, hundreds of the little buggers. Doesn't even have to pay them, puts little plastic lollypops just out of reach so the poor little tykes keep crawling towards them on these treadmills that power mammoth evil plastic ejecting, smoke spewing machines; think Fisher-Price meets Barad-dûr, only with more diaper smell and less lava. Delivery costs are kept dirt cheap by using cyborg pelicans, their cerebral cortexes replaced by Galaxy Note 7s (when the birds skulls occasionally explode from the bad batteries, copies of Descent 2.0 come raining down on hapless citizens.) All the while the Evil Eye gazes out across the land, looking for new game concepts to exploit.


So FFG has adopted Games Workshop's manufacturing model?
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Peter Bowie
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theapostlegreen wrote:
skutsch wrote:
FFG uses baby labor, hundreds of the little buggers. Doesn't even have to pay them, puts little plastic lollypops just out of reach so the poor little tykes keep crawling towards them on these treadmills that power mammoth evil plastic ejecting, smoke spewing machines; think Fisher-Price meets Barad-dûr, only with more diaper smell and less lava. Delivery costs are kept dirt cheap by using cyborg pelicans, their cerebral cortexes replaced by Galaxy Note 7s (when the birds skulls occasionally explode from the bad batteries, copies of Descent 2.0 come raining down on hapless citizens.) All the while the Evil Eye gazes out across the land, looking for new game concepts to exploit.


So FFG has adopted Games Workshop's manufacturing model?


Games Workshop uses orphan babies. Completely different scenario.
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Magic Pink
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What the hell? FFG components are terrible in comparison to 90% of my KS games. Their minis are complete crap these days and they pad expansions with materials you already have and don't need.
 
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Sam and Max wrote:
Viper5121 wrote:
Just look at Descent 2nd Edition, Gears of War, and the new Doom board game as examples. These games are priced incredibly low for the quality of components they offer.


The Mansions of Madness 2nd edition miniatures don't compare to, say, Cthulhu War's miniatures, and certainly not to CMON miniatures.


They barely compare to 1.99 bags of green army men you can get at the gas station
 
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