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Well, Dice Tower finished up the multi-part review of this game (SeaFall). In a nutshell, the consensus is it ain't good.

Being this was one of the first super hyped games created as, and existing only as, a 'legacy' game from the start, furthermore developed hot on the heels of and by the same designer of Risk Legacy and Pandemic Legacy, this begs the question: Was the success of previous 'legacy' games merely the already successful platform it was based upon or was SeaFall just poorly designed?

Being a brand new creation, SeaFall didn't have a well-liked game to carry it, and it sounds like the reception is mixed, at best. Again, was this because 'legacy' isn't that great if not tacked on to a wildly popular game or is it simply SeaFall falls short elsewhere?

While I know there are many that like it, it certainly seems like SeaFall missed the expected mark and there's still room for someone to develop a hit, uniquely designed legacy game to prove it works with no previous popular themes/mechanics to boost its appeal. Who's working on that?
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I don't know that Risk was ever highly regarded around here and I would say Risk Legacy succeeded despite it's base game, not because of.

Plus, there's been what, three legacy games? I'm not sure we can come to such sweeping conclusions based upon such a small sample size.
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s3kt0r wrote:
Plus, there's been what, three legacy games? I'm not sure we can come to such sweeping conclusions based upon such a small sample size.


Came here to post this very same thing. You can't draw any patterns from the three Legacy games so far.
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robininni wrote:
Well, Dice Tower finished up the multi-part review of this game. In a nutshell, the consensus is it ain't good.


SeaFall I guess ?

robininni wrote:
Being this was one of the first super hyped games created as, and existing only as, a 'legacy' game from the start, furthermore developed hot on the heels of and by the same designer of Risk Legacy and Pandemic Legacy, this begs the question: Was the success of previous 'legacy' games merely the already successful platform it was based upon or was SeaFall just poorly designed?


"One of" ? You mean "the only one for now", right ?
And the development started before the release of Pandemic legacy.

robininni wrote:
While I know there are many that like it, it certainly seems like SeaFall missed the expected mark and there's still room for someone to develop a hit, uniquely designed legacy game to prove it works with no previous popular themes/mechanics to boost its appeal. Who's working on that?


If think people will soon (if they have not already) realize that at a point you can't "reach" the hype.

I am of the people who have no interest in the legacy gimmick, who think it was a selling point, the "mechanism to like" (I remember seeing a lot of photos of player ripping cards ...) and that it was far less interesting than either a campaign game or than a game with modules you can put in/take of as you want.

The only Something Legacy I could be interested in would be a game where the choices of the player could change the game a lot and make branching in the story, while in Pandemic Legacy it looked like (from the video playthroughs) that the all story was a straight line.
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s3kt0r wrote:
I don't know that Risk was ever highly regarded around here and I would say Risk Legacy succeeded despite it's base game, not because of.

Plus, there's been what, three legacy games? I'm not sure we can come to such sweeping conclusions based upon such a small sample size.


Well, there are 4 versions of Risk on BGG that are under 2000 on the Board Game Rank and then Risk Legacy is at 150, so I'd say Risk has enjoyed high enough regard on BGG out of 86,000+ games.

And yes, with 3 legacy games, two of which were very successful, it makes one wonder why the third is seemingly not following in those foot steps. The only major difference I note from the outside looking in is that it was developed from the ground up based upon nothing preexisting and both other games were based upon well known, successful games. All three have the same designer so that common denominator makes the SeaFall upset even more curious to me.
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robininni wrote:
Well, Dice Tower finished up the multi-part review of this game (SeaFall). In a nutshell, the consensus is it ain't good.

Wait... Dice Tower didn't like it? Hmm, now I'm interested.
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Re-framed the OP's question:
"The legacy game called Seafall got a luke-warm review from the guys at The Dice Tower. Do you think it may not be successful because it is not an already established franchise like Risk & Pandemic?"
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It's not even a new thing. Plenty of games already have a campaign mode or assorted missions. Changing a game by writing on the board and tearing up cards is super gimmicky. Calling it a new mechanic is super cheesy!
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cafin8d wrote:
Wait... Dice Tower didn't like it? Hmm, now I'm interested.


Actually I advise you to be very cautious as there appears to be a fairly high correlation between your own ratings and those of the Dice Tower reviewers...

Arkham Horror 9 (Tom 9)
Dominion 9 (Tom 9)
Thebes 9 (Tom 8)
Lewis & Clark 9 (Zee 8)
Alchemists 9 - (Tom 9)

If my calculations are correct... you will rate this game only a 5 or 6.
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On a more serious note I think that "legacy" is just a ridiculously difficult thing to playtest well. It's much easier to take a game that you know works, and playtest just the legacy part to get it good than to try and build something from the ground up AND make sure it plays well as a legacy experience.

I think a lot of experienced designers are playing with the idea of legacy, and piggy-backing on the success and stability of an existing design seems like a no-brainer.

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robininni wrote:
s3kt0r wrote:
I don't know that Risk was ever highly regarded around here and I would say Risk Legacy succeeded despite it's base game, not because of.

Plus, there's been what, three legacy games? I'm not sure we can come to such sweeping conclusions based upon such a small sample size.


Well, there are 4 versions of Risk on BGG that are under 2000 on the Board Game Rank and then Risk Legacy is at 150, so I'd say Risk has enjoyed high enough regard on BGG out of 86,000+ games.

And yes, with 3 legacy games, two of which were very successful, it makes one wonder why the third is seemingly not following in those foot steps. The only major difference I note from the outside looking in is that it was developed from the ground up based upon nothing preexisting and both other games were based upon well known, successful games. All three have the same designer so that common denominator makes the SeaFall upset even more curious to me.


If getting into the top 2000 is what is considered successful, then isn't SeaFall successful? It will soon be there. It's currently ranked 2004 and is climbing.
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AlexCannon wrote:
Actually I advise you to be very cautious as there appears to be a fairly high correlation between your own ratings and those of the Dice Tower reviewers...

Even a broken clock is right once in a while.
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
Re-framed the OP's question:
"The legacy game called Seafall got a luke-warm review from the guys at The Dice Tower. Do you think it may not be successful because it is not an already established franchise like Risk & Pandemic?"


SeaFall received all sorts of super attention and hype and now it's been out for a couple months and it's only rated at 2004 overall and 868 in Strategy on the BGG rank system. It's already been featured on Daily Deals from major online gaming stores and it's in stock everywhere (get it right now on sale at CSI for $42.99). Terraforming Mars came out about the same time, had probably less hype, and is now at rank 54 overall and 24 in Strategy and can't be found for a 'normal' price anywhere if at all. Scythe definitely had as much hype or more, has been out a few months longer, but is currently ranked 11 overall and 6 in Strategy and can't be found to buy anywhere. And how long did it take Pandemic Legacy to get in the top 100 and now.... #1. Wow.

You may not value the opinions of Tom, Sam ,or Zee, but their 'luke warm' appraisal as you call it seems dead on. The is no denying SeaFall is not as popular as it was expected to be and the question of discussion is why? Either the game design is just not great for SeaFall or 'legacy' doesn't work well without existing love for an existing game design prior to adding 'legacy.' Which do you think it is?
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From what we've seen so far, Gloomhaven looks like it will be amazing. I also have high hopes for Charterstone.
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It's not out yet, but Gloomhaven will be another data point when it is released in a couple months (*fingers crossed*). It's a legacy game that's built from the ground up, no franchise to build off of.

Only hype so far, but the few people who have gotten to play it have had good first impressions (notably Paul Grogan).
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robininni wrote:
Well, Dice Tower finished up the multi-part review of this game (SeaFall). In a nutshell, the consensus is it ain't good.

Being this was one of the first super hyped games created as, and existing only as, a 'legacy' game from the start, furthermore developed hot on the heels of and by the same designer of Risk Legacy and Pandemic Legacy, this begs the question: Was the success of previous 'legacy' games merely the already successful platform it was based upon or was SeaFall just poorly designed?

Being a brand new creation, SeaFall didn't have a well-liked game to carry it, and it sounds like the reception is mixed, at best. Again, was this because 'legacy' isn't that great if not tacked on to a wildly popular game or is it simply SeaFall falls short elsewhere?

While I know there are many that like it, it certainly seems like SeaFall missed the expected mark and there's still room for someone to develop a hit, uniquely designed legacy game to prove it works with no previous popular themes/mechanics to boost its appeal. Who's working on that?


Gloomhaven seems like it's in the process of releasing (I'm... Not sure my shelves could hold it... That box terrifies me. Not the box art, the box), and Stonemaier Games has Charterstone in developement.

The interesting thing about the dice tower review is that their criticisms were mostly about the game - 3 hour heavy euro random dice chucker story telling game where you were forced to play as a bland jerk. Rather than the Legacy aspect of it (which they seemed to feel was too slowly paced and a bit wonky that you developed your ship and your people working for you more than you developed you), so it seems like it was the engine that failed to impress them (Trying to be all things to all people, rather than picking something and running with it full cyllenders, almost) rather than the Legacy stuff (Which... They seemed to have an issue with the pacing, but that issue seemed far more mild)

But, as they said in their latest review - While they don't like it, a lot of people seem to. (I don't have a stable enough game group to do a three player legacy game, meanwhile) - They don't always like the same games the majority of people do.
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Archr wrote:
It's not out yet, but Gloomhaven will be another data point when it is released in a couple months (*fingers crossed*). It's a legacy game that's built from the ground up, no franchise to build off of.

Only hype so far, but the few people who have gotten to play it have had good first impressions (notably Paul Grogan).


I predict it suffers the same fate as SeaFall: moderate success initially based upon hype that will not last and will indeed decline. I doubt SeaFall ever makes it to the top 1000 and in 5 years no one will be talking about or playing SeaFall to the point of setting it apart from countless other games that are unpopular but still played. I think 'legacy' is really not that popular without a known host and I predict Gloomhaven's fate being similar based upon this hypothesis, although Gloomhaven's theme will give it a better chance than SeaFall.
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Just reading this, but it seems fairly obvious that those who have played Risk and Pandemic before found the Legacy versions an incredibly interesting variant to a game they otherwise enjoyed.

Risk has shown renewed popularity for a time before with 'variants' such as Castle Risk and Risk 2210 A.D., though less with Risk: Godstorm but still significant. Risk players welcomed such. So I think many of the kudos we are seeing are from players of the base games enjoying the change-up.

SeaFall, conversely, had to stand and fall on its own. There was no base of fans of any other version of the game able to gauge it on any merits than its only version, with a built-in once-only campaign mode.

In short, this might be the first data-point showing that the Legacy family mechanism may be a good supplement but may not stand on its own merits over time. Time will tell.
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I really struggle with the whole "one and done" concept, but I am on board for Gloomhaven, although I expect I am going to be trying to figure out a "not so permanent" way to adapt the legacy aspect.
 
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I don't think that I've seen a bad text review of the game. It's possible that the reviewers didn't like SeaFall largely because they were in a hurry to review it and if there had been a WOW moment for them, they could have rushed to the presses and proclaimed it a winner from up on high after just a few sessions, despite having not actually played it all the way through. As it was, the game stymied them from being able to do that, and instead they were presented with something that was largely just "a game". They didn't want to review a game, they wanted to review a Legacy storyline. And once you're feeling negative about a game, it's probably going to influence the rest of your thinking as you continue on.

We'll have to see if the text reviews and commentary stay strong as gaming groups start to finish the game en masse.

But, fundamentally, there's no reason that a Legacy game would have to be bad because it's not based on a pre-existing property. But, it's worth noting that Rob Daviau doesn't seem to have any original games that anyone cares about except modifications of pre-existing engines and Betrayal at House on the Hill - none of which would lead to the idea that he has strong engine-building chops. It might just not be his strong suit.

Or, as I said, the reviewers were messed up by their expectations and personal tastes.
 
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I think that legacy is better as a cooperative.

I have been having a BLAST playing Pandemic: Legacy with my group, because we're on this journey together. But I wouldn't want us to play SEAFALL and start playing against each other.

The great thing about legacy is that it makes the stakes feel higher. We scream and cheer, making the neighbors think that the Seahawks have scored, but it's really because we pulled a blue card or whatever.

The cheering wouldn't be the same in Seafall...
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Cinnibar wrote:
Just reading this, but it seems fairly obvious that those who have played Risk and Pandemic before found the Legacy versions an incredibly interesting variant to a game they otherwise enjoyed.


For Risk, why not.
But for Pandemic you have to compare Legacy in which you play January once or twice, then February once or twice ... and the "standard" game with lots of modules, several degrees of difficulty (3 ? 4?) and in which you play what you want in the order you want.
 
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Someone already did create the most excellent legacy game. It even predates the existence of most of the people using this forum.

It's called Dungeons and Dragons. I think a few of you might've even heard of it before.
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lluluien wrote:
Someone already did create the most excellent legacy game. It even predates the existence of most of the people using this forum.

It's called Dungeons and Dragons. I think a few of you might've even heard of it before.


Not comparable, really. In a legacy game, the Game itself provides the surprises that you need a DM for.
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lluluien wrote:
Someone already did create the most excellent legacy game. It even predates the existence of most of the people using this forum.

It's called Dungeons and Dragons. I think a few of you might've even heard of it before.


I think you misunderstand a Legacy game.

Legacy games can not ever be played again. You can play the same campaign in D&D over and over. It would become tedious, but you can. Nothing destructive happens to the components.
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