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Shadows of Brimstone: Forbidden Fortress» Forums » General

Subject: Is it even worth it to get this at Sumo Level? rss

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Dominic B
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... this is the question going on in my head and I thought some of you more experienced backers and miniature game fans can help me to collect some opinions on this.


I kind of regret not having backed the first SoB Kickstarter because I immediately loved the theme and the basic level back then was pretty good value in the end if I remember correctly. But with this Kickstarter it seems that they really want to force you into the Shogun level. Stretchgoals for the Sumo level are very far apart and there isn't even much possibility to upgrade your pledge by some add-ons because most of the stuff seems to be Shogun exclusive.

I never backed a big miniature game Kickstarter, I read a lot of horror stories about some and money is always tight, so I can't rush any decisions here. On the other side the theme and game appeals to me a lot.

Do you think the Sumo pledge level is really worth the money? Or will it be better to wait for retail and hope for some discount on the core box after some time it stayed on the market?
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to open a Kickstarer vs retail discussion. I am just thinking out loud here and seeing Kickstarters like Deep Madness which offer about 130 minis for the same price as SoB:FF are confusing me even more.


I am grateful for any opinions and insights.
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Ondrej Kocnar
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Few points:

Deep Madness is done by first time creators so they promise more, possibly irresponsibly. I want to back it, but there are definitely risks involved.
FFP tries to be conservative this time, so they will manage everything better without great delays. Also consider this KS is STARTING, there will perhaps be much more SG.

The minicard expansions that Sumo has a lot of cost 10 USD each at FFP webstore plus shipping and taxes. So it might be good idea to get them through KS as they IMO help with replayability rather nicely.

All other expansion will be also pretty expensive at retail. One XL monster for example sells for about 27 EUR in Czech Republic. So even few of those means considerable value rise.
Alternate genders also will be hard to get/costly.

I do not know the situation in Germany, but I heard that games are rather costly there (look up the prices of comparable SoB stuff in German stores).
USA is a land of cheap games so if you are from Europe I think KS is often good deal because it sells for American prices - not considering shipping and delays of course. But typically things from KS can be a good deal even with shipping.

Last time we Europeans were bit screwed with terribly delayed shipping,
but it looks it is gonna be much better this time (I believe they will ship to Europe and US at the same time from China, not send parcels through US).
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Rich Moore
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If you think you'll eventually want to get all the other add-ons, no. Even the original outlaw paled in comparison to the mine-cart value, and the same is true here.

True, they've scaled back on the amount of stuff for both the basic level and "all-in" level...they have probably learned an expensive lesson. But even the Sumo level offers more "stuff" that will end up costing at retail, even with online discounts. It's not just extra characters, but also extra card supplements(each of those 10-15 card packs is $10 purchasable only through FFP and there's five listed so far for Sumo level), and the XL and XXL characters are going to run you $20-$25 each at discount online. So, it still makes the $100 level a better value than any discounted purchase you'd make online.

So, if you want the game and don't care about getting it all (or are on a budget!), then I think the Sumo is a good value.
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koraldon
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I would pledge now and judge the value in the last two days: Currently it seems better just to wait and get FoFo + Temple of Shadows at Retail prices, but that can change, depending on the stretch goals.
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Ondrej Kocnar
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rcmoore4 wrote:
If you think you'll eventually want to get all the other add-ons, no. Even the original outlaw paled in comparison to the mine-cart value, and the same is true here.

True, they've scaled back on the amount of stuff for both the basic level and "all-in" level...they have probably learned an expensive lesson. But even the Sumo level offers more "stuff" that will end up costing at retail, even with online discounts. It's not just extra characters, but also extra card supplements(each of those 10-15 card packs is $10 purchasable only through FFP and there's five listed so far for Sumo level), and the XL and XXL characters are going to run you $20-$25 each at discount online. So, it still makes the $100 level a better value than any discounted purchase you'd make online.

So, if you want the game and don't care about getting it all (or are on a budget!), then I think the Sumo is a good value.


Good points, I just note that to be able give advice to German about this, German retail situation must be considered.

Do they have some interesting online discount possibilities in Germany?
We at Czech Republic do not.
 
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Fnorbl Fnorblobson
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It's a difficult question.

In general, I'd say that you should get into the game, if:
1) You don't mind paying extra. To me, it seems that everything about the game is like 30% to 50% more expensive than that content would be at other companies.
2) Assembling the miniature is no problem for you or something you enjoy.

If both that is met, pick the sumo Reward if:
1) You prefer the Japanese over the Wild West setting.
2) Waiting until 2018 is no problem for you.
3) The Kickstarter exclusive class with its two miniatures is worth paying a little bit extra.
4) You are fine with the base game and are not a completionist or plan to play it excessively resulting in running out of content soon enough.

Buy one of the current base games if:
1) If you prefer the Wild West setting or it doesn't really matter to you.
2) The Kickstarter exclusives are not that important.
3) You prefer to have the game basically right now.

Go for the Shogun reward if:
1) You can afford it without a problem.
2) You want more than the base game, so you'd buy expansions anyway. At least they are a little bit cheaper here.

I think that then the Shogun reward is fine, but adding up the retail prices of the rewards somewhat deceptive, unless you want to purchase them regardless, as I think, again, that the prices are super expensive. Like that otherworld forest stretch goal: sold in retail for 80$? Really? As far as I know it has no minis but just some map tiles and rules.

I'm currently in the situation of having one of the retail base games and considering to expand it. So I can either buy one of the overly pricey expansions, 50€ to 60€ for Frontier Town , paying 100€ for the other base game, supporting the Kickstarter for Sumo (I'd rather buy the other current base game instead) or go in with the Shogun reward, as it offers the best (but still not great) content for the price.
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Lonny x
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I'm currently pledging for Sumo. It's early in the campaign but to be honest I really don't see the value in sumo. I really don't care about having alt mini's. The other stretch goals just pad what's going to be in core or available as small pack expansion. The value for Shogun is there 10 fold so I'm debating on dropping out or upgrading to Shogun. I wish
I was involved in the first campaign because the 140$ pledge seemed to be better value than the sumo pledge. Thankfully it's a long campaign and I can see what the Kingdom Death campaign will be costing me.
 
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Bernie Roessler
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I am borrowing this from another thread. I hope the author does not mind. It is from Wednesday but still relevant I feel:

dahak wrote:
wagglybean wrote:
I'm currently in at Sumo, but man these stretch goals are so heavily weighted towards Shogun.


So heavily weighted that Shogun is currently in most categories getting around twice what Sumo is for three times the price. Pure number of figures is the only place it is three times and that is due to the animated lanterns.

Sumo is getting 13 Missions, 5 Hero classes, 8 Monster types, 18 map tiles
Shogun is getting 21 Missions, 10 Hero Classes, 19 Monster types, 23 Map tiles.

Remember Sumo started better than RRP and Shogun didn't.

They do have to make that difference up.
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Jason Daniels
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Beorndog wrote:
I am borrowing this from another thread. I hope the author does not mind. It is from Wednesday but still relevant I feel:

dahak wrote:
wagglybean wrote:
I'm currently in at Sumo, but man these stretch goals are so heavily weighted towards Shogun.


So heavily weighted that Shogun is currently in most categories getting around twice what Sumo is for three times the price. Pure number of figures is the only place it is three times and that is due to the animated lanterns.

Sumo is getting 13 Missions, 5 Hero classes, 8 Monster types, 18 map tiles
Shogun is getting 21 Missions, 10 Hero Classes, 19 Monster types, 23 Map tiles.

Remember Sumo started better than RRP and Shogun didn't.

They do have to make that difference up.


Ya, Sumo started better. At the funding goal, Shogun was 100$ for the core and 200$ for the expansion. SGs are bringing the Shogun value up nicely, but currently, there is a 100k gap between SGs for Sumo. The best response we could get out of Jason this morning was"The value of Sumo will increase throughout the campaign." Ya think?!? At some point, I think all goals will need to go to both pledge levels. Wether that is after 1m$, or what, I don't know.
If the campaign stops short of 1m$, the ROI on that Sumo is pretty small. Alt-genders only add intrinsic value of the plastic, and card sets are "more of the same, but different".

And, if Sumo's make add-on of some of those paid-for SGs, they won't ship at the same time as the same items for Shogun's and will cost extra shipping.
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R.P. Kraul
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I dropped my Sumo pledge. 2018. That comedic adage about not buying green bananas and all that.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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Orya wrote:
It's a difficult question.

In general, I'd say that you should get into the game, if:
1) You don't mind paying extra. To me, it seems that everything about the game is like 30% to 50% more expensive than that content would be at other companies.
2) Assembling the miniature is no problem for you or something you enjoy.

If both that is met, pick the sumo Reward if:
1) You prefer the Japanese over the Wild West setting.
2) Waiting until 2018 is no problem for you.
3) The Kickstarter exclusive class with its two miniatures is worth paying a little bit extra.
4) You are fine with the base game and are not a completionist or plan to play it excessively resulting in running out of content soon enough.

Buy one of the current base games if:
1) If you prefer the Wild West setting or it doesn't really matter to you.
2) The Kickstarter exclusives are not that important.
3) You prefer to have the game basically right now.

Go for the Shogun reward if:
1) You can afford it without a problem.
2) You want more than the base game, so you'd buy expansions anyway. At least they are a little bit cheaper here.

I think that then the Shogun reward is fine, but adding up the retail prices of the rewards somewhat deceptive, unless you want to purchase them regardless, as I think, again, that the prices are super expensive. Like that otherworld forest stretch goal: sold in retail for 80$? Really? As far as I know it has no minis but just some map tiles and rules.

I'm currently in the situation of having one of the retail base games and considering to expand it. So I can either buy one of the overly pricey expansions, 50€ to 60€ for Frontier Town , paying 100€ for the other base game, supporting the Kickstarter for Sumo (I'd rather buy the other current base game instead) or go in with the Shogun reward, as it offers the best (but still not great) content for the price.
if you really like the game, then go for shogun
it may not look to give a good value, but its better than buying it at retail, you will likely regret it later if you dont.
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Ondrej Kocnar
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Orya wrote:


I think that then the Shogun reward is fine, but adding up the retail prices of the rewards somewhat deceptive, unless you want to purchase them regardless, as I think, again, that the prices are super expensive. Like that otherworld forest stretch goal: sold in retail for 80$? Really? As far as I know it has no minis but just some map tiles and rules.



The Forest of the Dead SG is described somewhat misleadingly in the graphics. It should have comparable content to Targa etc. Spectral Horde and other monsters will be part of it. FFP confirmed it.

Still, yes, the game is expensive.
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Dominic B
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Thank you all for your interesting posts! It helps a lot to hear some differing opinions.

Shogun is not really an option for me financially. Together with shipping I can't justify to pay so much st the moment. This is why I was thinking so hard about if it is worth backing the game at all.

It is right, Germany does not have huge discounts on US games. In opposite to living in the US, most of the times it seems worth to back a Kickstarter rather than wait for retail here. But in this case I am not sure.

I will continue watching the campaign and see how it develops.
I would love to back Deep Madness as an alternativ but I have a lot of concerns about it. Also I totally forgot about the new Kingdom Death KS, this could change everything for me (besides the fact that it is probably even way more expensive). Thanks for remembering me, Lonny!

Thanks again! It is always great that BGG is such a good place to get some friendly and helpful opinions!
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Angelus Seniores
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given shipping costs/customs US-EU, eu backers have a much bigger value for money through the KS given it ships from an EU hub so its definitely worth backing either level.
if you plan to take a few addons, its best to just go for shogun.

and the value will only increase as the campaign continues.
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Eric Harman
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Straight up compared to online retailers where you'll get 30℅ off prices?

Yup, absolutely. You get more than $30 worth of extra stuff with a sumo pledge.

It doesn't have as much value as a Shogun pledge, but the shogun is an all in pledge, so of course it's gonna have better value.
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Eric Harman
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okocnar wrote:
Orya wrote:


I think that then the Shogun reward is fine, but adding up the retail prices of the rewards somewhat deceptive, unless you want to purchase them regardless, as I think, again, that the prices are super expensive. Like that otherworld forest stretch goal: sold in retail for 80$? Really? As far as I know it has no minis but just some map tiles and rules.



The Forest of the Dead SG is described somewhat misleadingly in the graphics. It should have comparable content to Targa etc. Spectral Horde and other monsters will be part of it. FFP confirmed it.


The forest is a deluxe otherworld, it will be comparable to Trederra. Jason confirmed that this morning.
He also said the next update would specify what exactly is going into it.
Suffice to say, it's not just cards and tiles.
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Freelance Police
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The KS still has 3+ weeks to go, so you can make your decision then whether or not to back Sumo. Click on the Remind Me button, go play some games, and see if someone posted a "Is the Sumo worth it" thread!
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John
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If you like the game and plan on buying retail, than yes. If not, than no.
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Angelus Seniores
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Cooperton wrote:
Straight up compared to online retailers where you'll get 30℅ off prices?

Yup, absolutely. You get more than $30 worth of extra stuff with a sumo pledge.

It doesn't have as much value as a Shogun pledge, but the shogun is an all in pledge, so of course it's gonna have better value.


Eu online stores are much less likely to offer 30% discounts (and less likely to sell FFP stuff), rather 10-20%, and US ones arent interesting given the inevitable customs taxes/higher shipping costs

as such, the KS is often a better option than retail as long as eu-friendly shipping is applicable.
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Andrea Florio
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For me living in Japan it costs a lot anyway
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Alex Russo
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I really like SoB, I have both core sets and the Frontier Town expansion. What makes this game great is the theme and how it makes players feel like they are in the Wild West, this games does that better than any I've played.

And I find that it was a terrible strategy to make Forbidden Fortress fully compatible with SoB. To allow Ninja's and Sumo fighters in the wild west will just destroy the best trait of the game. Therefore I decided to not back it.

If they had designed FF with a different rules, only inspired by the SoB, I would go all in no doubt.

But if you don't have the original SoB core set, just go for it at any level your wallet can afford, it is a fun game, cool minis, great expansions totally worth it.
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Angelus Seniores
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i dont see how compatibility is a bad thing between wild west and japan themes?

wether you mix them is entirely up to you, you can keep both seperately if you want, playing either a samurai group in japan or a posse in the wild west.

at least people that want to mix have the option to do so
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Joshua C.
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I have decided it is not worth it and dropped my measly $100 pledge.

Maybe Sumo will be, but there is no way I'm paying $300 for a 2018 game that might have miniatures that are better than the terrible ones that came with the first game.

I can buy a lot of games for $300 and get them now.

Your mileage may vary.
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Marco Signore
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Leonce wrote:
Thank you all for your interesting posts! It helps a lot to hear some differing opinions.

Shogun is not really an option for me financially. Together with shipping I can't justify to pay so much st the moment. This is why I was thinking so hard about if it is worth backing the game at all.

It is right, Germany does not have huge discounts on US games. In opposite to living in the US, most of the times it seems worth to back a Kickstarter rather than wait for retail here. But in this case I am not sure.

I will continue watching the campaign and see how it develops.
I would love to back Deep Madness as an alternativ but I have a lot of concerns about it. Also I totally forgot about the new Kingdom Death KS, this could change everything for me (besides the fact that it is probably even way more expensive). Thanks for remembering me, Lonny!

Thanks again! It is always great that BGG is such a good place to get some friendly and helpful opinions!


but be aware that you are talking about three games of very different styles here. Kingdom Death is more a resource management in which the DC component is but one of the parts of the game, and your characters will die very horribily and very soon, so don't get fond of them. I don't know much about Deep Madness, but I don't like the miniature design and I am not sure about the game itself. For now, I am with SoB, because it is the game I played most in the last two years - and I only own the two core sets, since everything else has yet to be shipped to us poor EU backers without enough money to get the 1.5 wave. I still believe Sob to be the best Dungeon crawler ever published in the last decade or so, and I have tried many of them (pretty much all, since DC is my favourite genre). I will definitely not go for Kingdom death, nor for Deep Madness (plus, I've just finished backing two more games in october, and there is Mythic Battles to back, too...).
Therefore I would think about which game appeals you more. My two cents.
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Dominic B
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Angra wrote:
but be aware that you are talking about three games of very different styles here. (..)

You are very right and I am aware of that, thank you!
All those games (including SoB) are appealing to me which makes the decision even more difficult.

It doesn't get easier if I hear from you that SoB is one of the best dungeon crawl experiences in your opinion. This definitely sounds good
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