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Joe K
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As per title.

Playing the german version, if that matters.
 
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H-B-G
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Mantorok wrote:
As per title.

Playing the german version, if that matters.


It is MUST.

From the English rules

Quote:
A card effct that reduces production of a redbordered resource must be performed, so if your opponent
doesn’t have that production, then you must lower your own
production or not play the card at all.
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Joe K
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Thanks Dave, that was quick! thumbsup
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Matz from Germany
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Hi Dave,

where in the rulebook is this quote?

In my rulebook, this sentence says that red-bordered effects are optional!

Quote from page 10, first paragraph:


Again,
a red border means you can choose the resources of any
one player, so playing card C is usually not very nice. Redbordered
resources are optional, so card C does not remove
your own plants, even if you are the only player that has
any plant resources.

Greetings,
Matthias
 
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Joe K
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Matz Gruber wrote:
Hi Dave,

where in the rulebook is this quote?

In my rulebook, this sentence says that red-bordered effects are optional!

Quote from page 10, first paragraph:


Again,
a red border means you can choose the resources of any
one player, so playing card C is usually not very nice. Redbordered
resources are optional, so card C does not remove
your own plants, even if you are the only player that has
any plant resources.

Greetings,
Matthias



Hi Matthias,

specifically, I´m talking about Production, not Resources.

It might not be distinct enough in the german version though, as said.
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Matz from Germany
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Hi Dave,

ok, now I understand, and that was fortunately the way we played it.
Reductions in production are a must, taking away from ressources is an option.

Thanks
Matthias
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Florian Ruckeisen
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Reducing production (both your own and "red-bordered") is always mandatory. If you're unable to, then you cannot play that card.

Reducing your own resources (not red-bordered) is also mandatory. Again, this reduction is required to play the card.

Only reducing red-bordered (anyone's) resources is optional. You can choose to reduce them by a smaller amount, or even none at all. However, if you do remove resources, you must target a single player and cannot "split up" the effect over multiple players.

Edit: Another thing: The above pertains to the immediate effects of playing a card (in the lower half of the card). If it's a blue card with an action, and that action lists a red-bordered resource as a cost of the action (example: Ants has a cost of 1 red-bordered microbe to add 1 microbe to the Ants card), that's a different thing. Costs of an action (on the left side of the red arrow) are always mandatory to perform the action, no matter what.
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H-B-G
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Matz Gruber wrote:
Hi Dave,

ok, now I understand, and that was fortunately the way we played it.
Reductions in production are a must, taking away from ressources is an option.

Thanks
Matthias


Just to answer your earlier question my quote was from the section on symbols on page 15 of the English rules.
 
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Joe K
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DaveD wrote:
Matz Gruber wrote:
Hi Dave,

ok, now I understand, and that was fortunately the way we played it.
Reductions in production are a must, taking away from ressources is an option.

Thanks
Matthias


Just to answer your earlier question my quote was from the section on symbols on page 15 of the English rules.


Also, the difference for the rules of red border production and resources is described picture-perfectly at pages 9 (one but last paragraph) and 10 (beginning) of the original english rulebook online, so refering here is key.

http://www.fryxgames.se/TerraformingMars/TMRULESFINAL.pdf


I do not have my german copy in front of me (in fact, by now we´re separated some miles away), and it is not downloadable at the webpage of Schwerkraft-Verlag (like Kanban rules, for special reasons I guess), but I remember it´s not that distinctively mentioned there. If I remember correctly, otherwise I blame it on my brain
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Enoch Fryxelius
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Snapshot wrote:
Reducing production (both your own and "red-bordered") is always mandatory. If you're unable to, then you cannot play that card.

Reducing your own resources (not red-bordered) is also mandatory. Again, this reduction is required to play the card.

Only reducing red-bordered (anyone's) resources is optional. You can choose to reduce them by a smaller amount, or even none at all. However, if you do remove resources, you must target a single player and cannot "split up" the effect over multiple players.

Edit: Another thing: The above pertains to the immediate effects of playing a card (in the lower half of the card). If it's a blue card with an action, and that action lists a red-bordered resource as a cost of the action (example: Ants has a cost of 1 red-bordered microbe to add 1 microbe to the Ants card), that's a different thing. Costs of an action (on the left side of the red arrow) are always mandatory to perform the action, no matter what.


Florian is the unofficial professor of Terraforming Mars, answering every issue here on the forums, and he is always correct, as far as I can tell. Good work!

A lot of people find the distinction between red-bordered/non-red-bordered resources vs production difficult to remember. It might help here to think thematically, and remember that these distinctions are there for thematic reasons:

The basic rule is that you have to perform everything on the card: If you want to build an industry or city card, you need energy to make it work (represented by lowering your energy production). If you cannot do that then of course your factory or city will not work and therefore you cannot play the card. Your Livestock needs some grass to eat (represented by lowering any players plant production) - if they cannot eat, they will not survive, so then you can't play that card...

On the other hand, you don't need to land an asteroid on someone's plants. It would be very strange and un-thematic if there had to be plant life in order to allow asteroids being smashed into Mars!! Therefore, we had to make an exception for removing red-bordered resources (usually asteroids killing plants).

I hope it make sense...
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g colhoun
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Great to read the designer's thinking here. Thank you (and thanks for a great game!)
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Florian Ruckeisen
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EagleEye80 wrote:
Florian is the unofficial professor of Terraforming Mars, answering every issue here on the forums, and he is always correct, as far as I can tell. Good work!

Thank you! laugh But I can't take all credit for myself - for instance, H-B-G(DaveD) is super on the ball with rules questions as well, and we can't forget Bastinator's contributions.

Quote:
It might help here to think thematically, and remember that these distinctions are there for thematic reasons

I've been tempted to tell people that since pretty much every mechanic in TM makes thematic sense, when in doubt, you could ask yourself: "Does one of the possible rule interpretations I'm contemplating make no thematic sense? Then it's probably wrong."

Then again, you never know what people consider to make thematic sense...
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H-B-G
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Snapshot wrote:
EagleEye80 wrote:
Florian is the unofficial professor of Terraforming Mars, answering every issue here on the forums, and he is always correct, as far as I can tell. Good work!

Thank you! laugh But I can't take all credit for myself - for instance, H-B-G(DaveD) is super on the ball with rules questions as well, and we can't forget Bastinator's contributions.


Many thanks Florian thumbsup
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Ken Chaney

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I'm trying to get a confirmation on the rules when multiple production reduction, in red boxes, is required. Can production reduction be split among players, or must it ALL come from a single player?

If a hypothetical card required reduction in production of 2 plants and 3 heat, for example, could I take 1 plant from opponent A, 1 plant and 2 heat from opponent B, and 1 heat from myself? If not, how about 2 plants from A and 3 heat from B?

It is clear that Resource reductions can not be taken from more than one player, but the only thing I find on Production is from p. 9:
"Resources or production with a red frame means that you can affect any player you choose (even yourself)."

This wording implicitly connects Production to the same mechanism as Resources, and uses the singular form "player," but that is not strong enough to be certain.

I expect this question may seem perverse, but I ask in a way to get the answer in expectation of future expansions where it may be more relevant. There are currently cards with multiple Production reduction requirements, but if expansions have bigger effect cards (power creep is a common problem in expansions) this should be considered before a final opinion is formed. A card that takes more than 2 production would already be very powerful, and having to apply it all to a single player will often be fatal. (I think such cards would generally be very unbalanced unless there were substantial other changes. I guess some players would like a brawl expansion featuring larger production increases and big attacks ...)
 
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