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Subject: Bit of a wrinkle in Brexit thanks to a court ruling rss

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Pontifex Maximus
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In that it is the Parliment, not the Goverment that must pull the Brexit Trigger.


Quote:
Parliament alone has the power to trigger Brexit by notifying Brussels of the UK’s intention to leave the European Union, the high court has ruled.

The judgment (pdf), delivered by the lord chief justice, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, is likely to slow the pace of Britain’s departure from the EU and is a huge setback for Theresa May, who had insisted the government alone would decide when to trigger the process.

The lord chief justice said that “the most fundamental rule of the UK constitution is that parliament is sovereign”.

A government spokesman said ministers would appeal to the supreme court against the decision. The hearing will take place on 7-8 December.
Live High court says parliament must vote on triggering article 50 - Politics live
Rolling coverage of all the day’s political developments as they happen, including the high court ruling on whether parliament should get a vote on triggering article 50
Read more

Thomas said: “The court does not accept the argument put forward by the government. There is nothing in the 1972 European Communities Act to support it. In the judgment of the court, the argument is contrary both to the language used by parliament in the 1972 act, and to the fundamental principles of the sovereignty of parliament and the absence of any entitlement on the part of the crown to change domestic law by the exercise of its prerogative powers.”


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/03/parliament-...

In theory the Conservatives with a absolute majority should be able to vote for it. In reality, it gets a little dicey. The Government must put together a plan for Brexit to present to Parliament before hand. So the contentious items like EU freedom of travel and access to the single market will have to be spelled out. And if the EU keeps stating that the former must be in place for the latter to be considered, then any plan that limits travel might have a hard time making it through on the grounds its just not realistic. Not even going into the interesting ramifications if there are fundamental changes in the plan during negotiations.


And also the reality that the MPs would have to put their name on something that might horrifically backfire economically speaking. Well, the Conservative Party bought the puppy by calling for this election, now they have to pick up the poop

Being appealed but it appears that it is going to be an "interesting" process
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Adrian Hague
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Worry not, David Cameron is still there to tidy up his mess!

Oh, hang on he pulled a 'Botchit & Scarper' routine. In my estimation, the man is a total and absolute spam-faced tool bag.
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Andy Leighton
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Oh it is much more fun than that.

If the government fails at the appeal in the Supreme Court, then it can appeal to European Court of Justice. Which would be delightful irony.

Also from the sounds of the judgement the right process would require an Act of Parliament to trigger Article 50. This means going through both houses of Parliament - Commons and Lords. Whilst the Lords cannot outright block the passage of the law (after going through the Commons) it can delay it and revise it. So there could be a delay of anything up to a year. This is important as Theresa May wants to invoke Article 50 before the end of March - which is looking increasingly unlikely.
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AdrianPHague wrote:
Worry not, David Cameron is still there to tidy up his mess!

Oh, hang on he pulled a 'Botchit & Scarper' routine. In my estimation, the man is a total and absolute spam-faced tool bag.


I think it's amazing that anyone would think Cameron could have possibly stayed on as PM after loosing a referendum he had put so much political capital into winning. 'Lame duck' would be a massive understatement.
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Then there's the (not exactly clearly resolved IMO) question of whether or not the Scottish parliament must approve.



http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/l...
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Chris Binkowski
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Kumitedad wrote:
In that it is the Parliment, not the Goverment that must pull the Brexit Trigger.


Quote:
Parliament alone has the power to trigger Brexit by notifying Brussels of the UK’s intention to leave the European Union, the high court has ruled.

The judgment (pdf), delivered by the lord chief justice, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, is likely to slow the pace of Britain’s departure from the EU and is a huge setback for Theresa May, who had insisted the government alone would decide when to trigger the process.

The lord chief justice said that “the most fundamental rule of the UK constitution is that parliament is sovereign”.

A government spokesman said ministers would appeal to the supreme court against the decision. The hearing will take place on 7-8 December.
Live High court says parliament must vote on triggering article 50 - Politics live
Rolling coverage of all the day’s political developments as they happen, including the high court ruling on whether parliament should get a vote on triggering article 50
Read more

Thomas said: “The court does not accept the argument put forward by the government. There is nothing in the 1972 European Communities Act to support it. In the judgment of the court, the argument is contrary both to the language used by parliament in the 1972 act, and to the fundamental principles of the sovereignty of parliament and the absence of any entitlement on the part of the crown to change domestic law by the exercise of its prerogative powers.”


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/03/parliament-...

In theory the Conservatives with a absolute majority should be able to vote for it. In reality, it gets a little dicey. The Government must put together a plan for Brexit to present to Parliament before hand. So the contentious items like EU freedom of travel and access to the single market will have to be spelled out. And if the EU keeps stating that the former must be in place for the latter to be considered, then any plan that limits travel might have a hard time making it through on the grounds its just not realistic. Not even going into the interesting ramifications if there are fundamental changes in the plan during negotiations.


And also the reality that the MPs would have to put their name on something that might horrifically backfire economically speaking. Well, the Conservative Party bought the puppy by calling for this election, now they have to pick up the poop

Being appealed but it appears that it is going to be an "interesting" process


You make it sound like they are unwilling and incapable of following through on this and should just give up. I think they have more backbone than that.

Backbone: tougher than the smooth tongues of the opposition.
 
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J.D. Hall
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I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.
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Wendell
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remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


There's enough evidence of second thoughts among the British electorate that I'm not sure this is automatically true.

At this point, Brexit and non-Brexit are both treacherous for the Conservatives. Hoist on their own petard.
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Andy Leighton
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remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


The entire way the referendum was run has made it a no-win situation for the Tories.

51.4% of a 72% turnout isn't really a good enough mandate to be confident of any result being seen as good. Especially when two parts of the union rejected it.

Also the question was not specific enough to keep all the leavers together. Yes a large number of leave voters probably do want a hard brexit, however a significant number of leave voters didn't.
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Chris Binkowski
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wifwendell wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


There's enough evidence of second thoughts among the British electorate that I'm not sure this is automatically true.

At this point, Brexit and non-Brexit are both treacherous for the Conservatives. Hoist on their own petard.


I suspect you lean Left on the political landscape so you probably won't understand this: when it's challenging, when it's difficult, when the issue might risk your own reputation and your own bottom line, then THAT is where you have to fight.
 
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Andy Leighton
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Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


There's enough evidence of second thoughts among the British electorate that I'm not sure this is automatically true.

At this point, Brexit and non-Brexit are both treacherous for the Conservatives. Hoist on their own petard.


I suspect you lean Left on the political landscape so you probably won't understand this: when it's challenging, when it's difficult, when the issue might risk your own reputation and your own bottom line, then THAT is where you have to fight.


Nope I suspect wifwendell has done more reading about this than you.

The type of brexit makes a difference to a significant number. But also if Scotland decides to go its own way and leave the UK over this issue would also make a big difference.

At the moment the government looks very shambolic on the issue.

At the by-election for Cameron's seat the Conservatives were down 15% (to the lowest they have been in donkey's years) and the Lib-Dems (one of the Europhile parties) were up 23.5%. Some of that will have been the usual by-election movement of votes but not all.
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Wendell
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Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


There's enough evidence of second thoughts among the British electorate that I'm not sure this is automatically true.

At this point, Brexit and non-Brexit are both treacherous for the Conservatives. Hoist on their own petard.


I suspect you lean Left on the political landscape so you probably won't understand this: when it's challenging, when it's difficult, when the issue might risk your own reputation and your own bottom line, then THAT is where you have to fight.


Yeah, what the fuck would I know about what's happening in my land of birth? I mean, I only studied political science and national security studies. And I only worked in international relations where I was paid to understand political and economic systems of different countries.
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Jon M
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Kumitedad wrote:
...The Government must put together a plan for Brexit to present to Parliament before hand. So the contentious items like EU freedom of travel and access to the single market will have to be spelled out...


Will they? The judgement says the Government can't trigger Article 50 without Parliamentary approval - it doesn't say that parliament must approve the negotiating position of HM Government. Presumably once the Brexit is negotiated it will then have to approve the deal that is done and put it into law.
 
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Chris Binkowski
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wifwendell wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


There's enough evidence of second thoughts among the British electorate that I'm not sure this is automatically true.

At this point, Brexit and non-Brexit are both treacherous for the Conservatives. Hoist on their own petard.


I suspect you lean Left on the political landscape so you probably won't understand this: when it's challenging, when it's difficult, when the issue might risk your own reputation and your own bottom line, then THAT is where you have to fight.


Yeah, what the fuck would I know about what's happening in my land of birth? I mean, I only studied political science and national security studies. And I only worked in international relations where I was paid to understand political and economic systems of different countries.


And this is supposed to raise my opinion of your expertise? No, rather it shows how little your side understands the international field and the times we live in. Hence: Brexit.


It doesn't take a degree for a man to see that his house is on fire.
 
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Christopher Seguin
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wifwendell wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


There's enough evidence of second thoughts among the British electorate that I'm not sure this is automatically true.

At this point, Brexit and non-Brexit are both treacherous for the Conservatives. Hoist on their own petard.


I suspect you lean Left on the political landscape so you probably won't understand this: when it's challenging, when it's difficult, when the issue might risk your own reputation and your own bottom line, then THAT is where you have to fight.


Yeah, what the fuck would I know about what's happening in my land of birth? I mean, I only studied political science and national security studies. And I only worked in international relations where I was paid to understand political and economic systems of different countries.


Bah, you live in Dayton! What would you know?!?

Silly Southerner...

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Mutton Chops
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Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


There's enough evidence of second thoughts among the British electorate that I'm not sure this is automatically true.

At this point, Brexit and non-Brexit are both treacherous for the Conservatives. Hoist on their own petard.


I suspect you lean Left on the political landscape so you probably won't understand this: when it's challenging, when it's difficult, when the issue might risk your own reputation and your own bottom line, then THAT is where you have to fight.


Yeah, what the fuck would I know about what's happening in my land of birth? I mean, I only studied political science and national security studies. And I only worked in international relations where I was paid to understand political and economic systems of different countries.


And this is supposed to raise my opinion of your expertise? No, rather it shows how little your side understands the international field and the times we live in. Hence: Brexit.


It doesn't take a degree for a man to see that his house is on fire.


You literally have no idea what you're talking about.
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Marco Mann
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The government should call their bluff.

Make it a straight vote with no proposed Brexit plan. If the vote goes against the government, highlight every MP that voted differently to the way their constituency did during the Brexit vote and call a general election.
 
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Chris Binkowski
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mutton_chops wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


There's enough evidence of second thoughts among the British electorate that I'm not sure this is automatically true.

At this point, Brexit and non-Brexit are both treacherous for the Conservatives. Hoist on their own petard.


I suspect you lean Left on the political landscape so you probably won't understand this: when it's challenging, when it's difficult, when the issue might risk your own reputation and your own bottom line, then THAT is where you have to fight.


Yeah, what the fuck would I know about what's happening in my land of birth? I mean, I only studied political science and national security studies. And I only worked in international relations where I was paid to understand political and economic systems of different countries.


And this is supposed to raise my opinion of your expertise? No, rather it shows how little your side understands the international field and the times we live in. Hence: Brexit.


It doesn't take a degree for a man to see that his house is on fire.


You literally have no idea what you're talking about.


Conversely, I have no doubt you believe you know what you are talking about.
 
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Mutton Chops
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remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


No, there won't. That's because the people who swung the Brexit vote aren't the kind of people who a) understand politics, and b) normally give a stuff about politics. This is precisely what the Brexit-camp Tory politicians misread when they assumed they would get a narrow-ish loss, and further their careers by ousting Cameron and his supporters, grasping the reins of power, and using sabre-rattling at the European parliament to gain concessions which would be popular with their usual constituency (i.e. the middle-aged and later middle-classes who usually vote), thus securing Tory dominance for the next couple of parliaments.

The people who who voted for Brexit and swung the difference occupy the lower end of the socio-economic scale, and they simply didn't understand what they were voting for - if it weren't obvious from the foaming stupidity expressed on social media in the run-up to the vote, it's certainly crystal clear from the reactions of those who are now coming to grips with the economic implications, and are getting serious buyers remorse, and also from the bone-heads who thought that Brexit somehow meant all immigrants would be "sent back" and are now practically enacting their imbecilic racism on the streets of Britain in increasing numbers, in the belief that the referendum result means they can be xenophobic with impunity.

Only marginally more than half of those who voted, voted Brexit, so just over a third of the electorate. This is not some shining example of the best of democracy at work, as some would have it: this is the result of a career politician being given the willies by a media-hyped bunch of single-issue bigots, and making the most cataclysmically stupid decision he could possibly have made for the country as a whole in order to try to win an election he was unlikely to lose even without agreeing to a referendum.

The fortunate thing is that the courts have now confirmed what anyone who understood the relevant legislation already knew: the referendum was neither legally binding, nor to be considered a mandate.

EDIT: To correct brain-fart on the voting turnout figures, caused by irritation.
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Mutton Chops
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Sarxis wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


There's enough evidence of second thoughts among the British electorate that I'm not sure this is automatically true.

At this point, Brexit and non-Brexit are both treacherous for the Conservatives. Hoist on their own petard.


I suspect you lean Left on the political landscape so you probably won't understand this: when it's challenging, when it's difficult, when the issue might risk your own reputation and your own bottom line, then THAT is where you have to fight.


Yeah, what the fuck would I know about what's happening in my land of birth? I mean, I only studied political science and national security studies. And I only worked in international relations where I was paid to understand political and economic systems of different countries.


And this is supposed to raise my opinion of your expertise? No, rather it shows how little your side understands the international field and the times we live in. Hence: Brexit.


It doesn't take a degree for a man to see that his house is on fire.


You literally have no idea what you're talking about.


Conversely, I have no doubt you believe you know what you are talking about.


Well, only because I do, in this case, and, as I've said, you don't.
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Andrew Bartosh

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Sarxis wrote:
I suspect you lean Left on the political landscape so you probably won't understand this: when it's challenging, when it's difficult, when the issue might risk your own reputation and your own bottom line, then THAT is where you have to fight.


So, I'm actually curious and this gets at a question that nags at me sometimes.

In a representative-based government, should the elected ignore and override the will of the electorate if they earnestly believe that the electorate is wrong?
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AdrianPHague wrote:
Worry not, David Cameron is still there to tidy up his mess!

Oh, hang on he pulled a 'Botchit & Scarper' routine. In my estimation, the man is a total and absolute spam-faced tool bag.

Y'all have a funny country. Here, in a defeat our leader would either instruct the press to say it wasn't a defeat, or say the system was rigged. And then double-down on the defeated objectives.
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AttackFactorZero wrote:
The government should call their bluff.

Make it a straight vote with no proposed Brexit plan. If the vote goes against the government, highlight every MP that voted differently to the way their constituency did during the Brexit vote and call a general election.


This is pretty much what they'll have to do (unless they get the ruling reversed). They'll need parliamentary approval to invoke Article 50, and obviously they aren't going to tell parliament any real plan for what that will mean for exactly the same reasons that they haven't told anyone a plan now and why they didn't mention any plans during the campaign.

What it will cause is another huge schism in the Tories. Most will probably vote to invoke the Article, but there's probably still enough bad blood so that there will be rebels. The other parties will love it, as they don't have similar schisms and can probably just allow a quiet open vote.
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andyl wrote:
Oh it is much more fun than that.

If the government fails at the appeal in the Supreme Court, then it can appeal to European Court of Justice. Which would be delightful irony.

Also from the sounds of the judgement the right process would require an Act of Parliament to trigger Article 50. This means going through both houses of Parliament - Commons and Lords. Whilst the Lords cannot outright block the passage of the law (after going through the Commons) it can delay it and revise it. So there could be a delay of anything up to a year. This is important as Theresa May wants to invoke Article 50 before the end of March - which is looking increasingly unlikely.

 
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Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
wifwendell wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
I personally thought Brexit was a bad idea but believed it would win enough votes. If Parliament fails to heed the will of the voters who approved a resolution placed before them by Parliament, there will be hell to pay.


There's enough evidence of second thoughts among the British electorate that I'm not sure this is automatically true.

At this point, Brexit and non-Brexit are both treacherous for the Conservatives. Hoist on their own petard.


I suspect you lean Left on the political landscape so you probably won't understand this: when it's challenging, when it's difficult, when the issue might risk your own reputation and your own bottom line, then THAT is where you have to fight.


Yeah, what the fuck would I know about what's happening in my land of birth? I mean, I only studied political science and national security studies. And I only worked in international relations where I was paid to understand political and economic systems of different countries.


And this is supposed to raise my opinion of your expertise? No, rather it shows how little your side understands the international field and the times we live in. Hence: Brexit.

It doesn't take a degree for a man to see that his house is on fire.


You've clearly swallowed the UKIP Kool-Aid, which has colored how you view things. Plenty of people - left, center, and right - have pointed out both the logical flaws in the pro-Brexit argument (Hey, they've ALREADY backed off of that bullshit claim that leaving the EU would produce a zillion pounds a day for the National Health) and the economic and social damage the UK will likely do to itself by leaving the EU, assuming it doesn't get it's maximal "free trade without immigrants" deal from the EU. A deal which, incidentally and I say this because yes I do actually understand the international field and the times we live in, the EU member states will have basically ZERO incentive to offer London.
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