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Subject: Play without resetting? rss

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Scott King
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I'm playing two player with my wife. We are two games and the prologue into SeaFall and not really digging it. We aren't playing aggressive and are focusing more on the exploration.

I think our biggest problem is that not enough carries over between each game. It feels too much like starting over. So then the first half of the next game is just kind of rebuilding an engine or plan that we had already gotten going. Also the games seem to end abruptly thanks to the mile stones so that just as we have things in play it's BOOM and done.

I'd like to continue the game, but do so without resetting or at least doing less of a reset between games. For those of you who are father or more into design then I am... how would you implement skipping the reset? Loose tokens, but keep coins? Keep advisors and upgrades? Keep it all? Or what?

Right now we are leaning towards basically playing through the whole thing as one long game. Keep track of glory separately and just whenever X milestones are met that's when a game session would end. When we played again we would pick up exactly where we left off, but with refreshed milestones.

So yeah any thoughts tips or how to implement either idea?

Thanks!



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gary g
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Eh, The game is designed to 'begin anew' each match and also 'not' designed for 2P.
I would keep at it.
Once your past the beginning Milestones it'll take you awhile, at least with 2P only, to start unlocking more so games ending quickly shouldn't happen.

I am actually doing a 2P with my wife, but we are both going in knowing its not how the game is designed so we are 'enjoying the ride' with adventuring, exploring, and just being merchants and whatnot. Our matches last a long time because you don't have the 4 or 5 players working on Milestone unlocks together. We are having a total blast! It is awesome.

Think of it like this. You max out your buildings and ship upgrades and decide to house rule to carry them over....your'll begin the next game with an automatic 7 glory? My advice is to keep to the rules or it'll last just as short because you guys are handicapping yourselves with starting each future match with the first few rounds done because you carried it over.

 
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Becq Starforged
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Well, the first response is that you will be making a major change to the way the game is intended to be played. There are reasons the game is designed the way it is -- one of the biggest problems sited by the developers was the threat of a runaway victory. A player that does little but build structures and upgrades -- and gets to keep them next game -- will have a huge advantage. That said, if you aren't enjoying the game as is ... well, it's your game, so it's up to you to decide how you want to play it. Just keep in mind that the result is likely to favor a runaway victory.

One thing you might try is a partial reset between games. Let each player choose an extra advisor and one 10-gold building or upgrade to keep. See how that works before making further changes.

If you want to go further, you'll need to figure out how to integrate the normal end-of-game stuff (regaining reputation and fortune, ship upgrades, province upgrades, etc) into your continuous campaign, and also how to balance the amount of stuff players end up keeping. I'm not sure how to do that (neither were the designers), but here are some thoughts:

Continue to use the glory goal as a "game clock". When the glory goal is reached (at the end of the turn), do all of the normal end-game stuff: record glory for that "game", award the winner an upgrade, do ship upgrades, deal with enmity, etc.

Instead of discarding all upgrades, structures, and leaders, you can try this at the "end game". Count up each player's net worth (advisors, structures, gold, goods, etc). Advisors count as their gold value, fortune/rep tokens count as 3 gold each, goods at ... maybe 5 gold, as a compromise between (normal) buy and sell price? Treasure, upgrades, and structures at face value. Research cards should probably be valued at their purchase price (3 gold). There are things that come later that you might have to fudge a value for; I won't spoiler them here. Let the loser pick one advisor to keep "for free".

Then, whoever has more stuff has to get rid of enough stuff (by discarding "cash" gold, advisors, etc.) to even up the values. You might even let whoever has less campaign glory opt to discard stuff they don't want first, so that they might force the other player to discard more.

Once you've done all of the end-game stuff (except discarding everything, which is modified as described), perform any effects that occurs at the end of game (like most unlocks, for example).

Then, after players have been "equalized", advance to winter and do the normal winter and game start things. Give out reputation and fortune (adding to whatever leftovers the players kept within their budget). Or cut the amount of new fortune and reputation in half to balance out the head start the players are getting.

Each player resets their game glory to their current glory (which would be based on structures, upgrades, and treasures). Continue play.

IMPORTANT NOTE: All of the above is likely to be extraordinarily imbalanced. Trying to play the game this way may ruin your game. Or make it better. I have no clue; use these ideas at your peril.

By the way, since you're playing a two-player game, you may also want to look at the two-player variant I proposed to tighten up resources a bit. You can find it in the "Variants" section of the forum.
 
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Will
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We talked about this in my group (on game 8). Somebody lost 45 gold because the game ended abruptly when somebody gained a bunch of points out of nowhere. It's a frustrating aspect of the game, but I think some degenerate strategies would come up if you carried over anything other what they say. You have to get rid of all but 1 advisor, this would be so broken later on.
If you carried gold over: (I think this is a small 1st or 2nd box spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
There's a building that lets you sell each good for 4 extra gold. If you can get that building 1st turn every game, I think it would be really easy to get a broken economic engine pretty quickly and just buy treasures every turn to end the game before the other person could do anything.

- One thing I've been thinking about (in case I ever play another campaign, which is doubtful at this point) is the effect of allowing any 2 moves on the "guild chart." There are just so many times I've wanted to do different guild actions and others have had this problem too. And it only ever seems to punish the person who's losing.
For instance, they lost a ship and the game is 75% over. They can waste a whole turn repairing their ship, but they can't research or explore or buy goods or sell goods in that same turn. So they either lose a key turn towards the end of the game when the leader is pushing towards the VP threshold, or they just limp along and get a few more VPs before the game ends.
Those 4 appellations can still work the same way they do, you just have to choose 1 line to do all 3 for 2 gold.
Idk, just a thought, not tested at all though.
- I'd also modify the game end to: When someone triggers the end of the game, everyone gets 1 more turn.
- Last thing I'd change is: End game enmity is equal to the tokens you have, not the dice roll. Even if it was "remove 2 enmity for every 3 tokens you have, rounded up" it would be way less annoying than rolling 1 success on 5 dice and wanting to blow my brains out.
 
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j n
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You could probably play like that with your wife until you unlocked something that changed your mind and be ok.
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Scott King
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reshurc wrote:
Eh, The game is designed to 'begin anew' each match and also 'not' designed for 2P.
I would keep at it.
Once your past the beginning Milestones it'll take you awhile, at least with 2P only, to start unlocking more so games ending quickly shouldn't happen.

I am actually doing a 2P with my wife, but we are both going in knowing its not how the game is designed so we are 'enjoying the ride' with adventuring, exploring, and just being merchants and whatnot. Our matches last a long time because you don't have the 4 or 5 players working on Milestone unlocks together. We are having a total blast! It is awesome.

Think of it like this. You max out your buildings and ship upgrades and decide to house rule to carry them over....your'll begin the next game with an automatic 7 glory? My advice is to keep to the rules or it'll last just as short because you guys are handicapping yourselves with starting each future match with the first few rounds done because you carried it over.



We are at a point where we are going to break the game and go off book or stop playing. Both of us are too busy to commit to a game we aren't enjoying. I know SeaFall wasn't designed this way... that's why I'm asking for suggestions on how to ignore the reset without utterly breaking the game.
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Scott King
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Temelin wrote:

Idk, just a thought, not tested at all though.
- I'd also modify the game end to: When someone triggers the end of the game, everyone gets 1 more turn.
- Last thing I'd change is: End game enmity is equal to the tokens you have, not the dice roll. Even if it was "remove 2 enmity for every 3 tokens you have, rounded up" it would be way less annoying than rolling 1 success on 5 dice and wanting to blow my brains out.


Ohhh those are both interesting.
 
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Scott King
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Becq wrote:
Well, the first response is that you will be making a major change to the way the game is intended to be played. There are reasons the game is designed the way it is -- one of the biggest problems sited by the developers was the threat of a runaway victory. A player that does little but build structures and upgrades -- and gets to keep them next game -- will have a huge advantage. That said, if you aren't enjoying the game as is ... well, it's your game, so it's up to you to decide how you want to play it. Just keep in mind that the result is likely to favor a runaway victory.

One thing you might try is a partial reset between games. Let each player choose an extra advisor and one 10-gold building or upgrade to keep. See how that works before making further changes.

If you want to go further, you'll need to figure out how to integrate the normal end-of-game stuff (regaining reputation and fortune, ship upgrades, province upgrades, etc) into your continuous campaign, and also how to balance the amount of stuff players end up keeping. I'm not sure how to do that (neither were the designers), but here are some thoughts:

Continue to use the glory goal as a "game clock". When the glory goal is reached (at the end of the turn), do all of the normal end-game stuff: record glory for that "game", award the winner an upgrade, do ship upgrades, deal with enmity, etc.

Instead of discarding all upgrades, structures, and leaders, you can try this at the "end game". Count up each player's net worth (advisors, structures, gold, goods, etc). Advisors count as their gold value, fortune/rep tokens count as 3 gold each, goods at ... maybe 5 gold, as a compromise between (normal) buy and sell price? Treasure, upgrades, and structures at face value. Research cards should probably be valued at their purchase price (3 gold). There are things that come later that you might have to fudge a value for; I won't spoiler them here. Let the loser pick one advisor to keep "for free".

Then, whoever has more stuff has to get rid of enough stuff (by discarding "cash" gold, advisors, etc.) to even up the values. You might even let whoever has less campaign glory opt to discard stuff they don't want first, so that they might force the other player to discard more.

Once you've done all of the end-game stuff (except discarding everything, which is modified as described), perform any effects that occurs at the end of game (like most unlocks, for example).

Then, after players have been "equalized", advance to winter and do the normal winter and game start things. Give out reputation and fortune (adding to whatever leftovers the players kept within their budget). Or cut the amount of new fortune and reputation in half to balance out the head start the players are getting.

Each player resets their game glory to their current glory (which would be based on structures, upgrades, and treasures). Continue play.

IMPORTANT NOTE: All of the above is likely to be extraordinarily imbalanced. Trying to play the game this way may ruin your game. Or make it better. I have no clue; use these ideas at your peril.

By the way, since you're playing a two-player game, you may also want to look at the two-player variant I proposed to tighten up resources a bit. You can find it in the "Variants" section of the forum.


Lots of good stuff to consider. Thanks!

I really like your wording of calling it a "Continuous Campaign." That's exactly what I'd like to shoot for.
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The Chaz
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If you're not having a good time, why not experiment?

I'd be curious to see how the game plays with some "rolling" aspects.

What if you were allowed to keep a building and/or an upgrade between games? Perhaps only the losers get this option.

What if you stayed on the same "year" between games, and kept some of your money?

What if you immediately get a new ship at the start of your next turn when one is sunk AND you aren't in 1st (or 2nd,with more players)?

What if all your ships had the same stats, and better stats? (e.g. Increase by more than one box each game)
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The Chaz
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Oh, I should mention...

I can imagine the result of most of these, when taken together. The question is really how they all work together.

Either way, I hope you report back with what you chose, and how it went!
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Scott King
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The Chaz wrote:
If you're not having a good time, why not experiment?

I'd be curious to see how the game plays with some "rolling" aspects.

What if you were allowed to keep a building and/or an upgrade between games? Perhaps only the losers get this option.

What if you stayed on the same "year" between games, and kept some of your money?

What if you immediately get a new ship at the start of your next turn when one is sunk AND you aren't in 1st (or 2nd,with more players)?

What if all your ships had the same stats, and better stats? (e.g. Increase by more than one box each game)


We are leaning toward your first suggestion and then not counting their glory in the next game. The rest are interesting. I'm adding them to the master list I got going. My plain is to take a bunch of ideas, squish them together and then give it a go just to see what happens.
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Without separate games, you'd be jettisoning one of the main sources of permanent advancement.

And enmity seems so central to the game -- probably its most interesting new idea, although not perfectly implemented -- that removing a big part of how that works would remove a lot of the meat of the game.

I can say that games get much longer as the campaign goes on. The target glory only ramps up by a point at a time, but that increase does add up, and meanwhile new stuff is added with each unlock that makes individual turns feel much weightier.

I also was startled at how soon games ended early on, but that went away as we got deeper into the campaign and there was more to do.
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Becq Starforged
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Scott King wrote:
We are leaning toward your first suggestion and then not counting their glory in the next game. The rest are interesting. I'm adding them to the master list I got going. My plain is to take a bunch of ideas, squish them together and then give it a go just to see what happens.

One thing to consider: if you keep some number of structures into the next game, but don't award glory for them, there is a side effect of making glory gains via building more difficult. Not only are there fewer buildings to choose from, the players also have fewer slots to build them in. This is likely to disincentivize building somewhat.

Also, consider the "Have three structures" milestone, which should be in your game if you haven't already completed it. Part of the balance consideration for that milestone involved the fact that you'd have to build those three structures in a single game. On the other hand, if the players each start the game with two structures each, then it's just a question of who has the first turn; building that third building to claim the milestone is a no-brainer.

Just throwing out things to consider as you decide how to mod your campaign...
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