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Subject: Fall behind and catchup? - no real spoilers rss

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jesse largent
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So I'm about 6 games in and I've been in last or third place every game except for the first. Everyone else has gotten three (or more) milestones and I have only gotten one. Usually its been neck and neck and something happens that lets them get it first, or I just dont roll well.

it's starting to feel like Im falling further and further behind and that its getting more and more difficult to make progress. It seems that the catch-up mechanisms are essentialy just making sure I dont get utterly destroyed but not really making it possible for me to win a game. What are other peoples experiences with the game in this regard? is there one person who falls behind and just never catches up? is there one person who pulls ahead and stays ahead?
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David desJardins
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You should be starting every game with more resources than your opponents. So why aren't you doing better? You have a long-term disadvantage, but in the short term you should be able to win games and compete for the milestones that are out. Is it possible that your problem involves strategy and not just resources?
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jesse largent
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I start typicaly with two choices of catch up bonuses to start. Gold or tokens depending on what I've been going for. The gold has helped me gain certain advantages earlier on than others but they still are able to get those advantages themselves shortly there after, and at this point, already have something similar from a combination milestone bonuses or end of game bonuses.

It's effectively evening out the playing field more then giving me the leg up, and keeping me trailing just a little in points instead of being decimated in points.

As I mentioned in the first post, there is some randomness too this. A poor dice roll here or an unlucky event card draw there prevented me from getting a milestone in game 2-3.

As they have accumulated more of them then me though (and the one I got hasnt been that helpful)t this point the 6 gold or two tokens just doesn't really make up for the advantages the milestones and game win bonuses are giving my competitors.

My strategy is to identify which milestone I am the closest to getting or
am best suited to getting and persuing that route while picking up glory other places here and there. Honing in on the advisors, building and upgrades I'd need to effectively and quickly reach those milestones. I have a pretty solid strategy for most of the games and I'll admit i've made a mistake here or there.

I'm worried at this point that I'll play the rest of the game just struggling to keep up and the gap will grow and grow.

But this is what Im asking: having people found this to be the case? or is my game experience so far colored just by some bad luck (that happens)


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Vince Alvarez
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DaviddesJ wrote:
You should be starting every game with more resources than your opponents. So why aren't you doing better? You have a long-term disadvantage, but in the short term you should be able to win games and compete for the milestones that are out. Is it possible that your problem involves strategy and not just resources?


What should the strategy be? I'm running away with the lead with last place being about 60 points behind after 9 games. How should they be spending their catchup benefits? As the leader the first couple of turns are tight, but I can catch up by the last few turns. One of our players made the comment that it was a race for second place in the last game, I'd like for to give solid strategy suggestions for them to stay in the game.
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j n
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heyvince wrote:

What should the strategy be? I'm running away with the lead with last place being about 60 points behind after 9 games. How should they be spending their catchup benefits?


I'm not nearly that far, so I can't offer specifics, but at the point where I am, two of the three milestones currently in play should be literally unachievable by the Prince (me), if the other players even make an attempt at them (and the lowest-glory players will have turn order advantage in addition to resource advantage when pursuing all three).

If you're that far ahead, you should be able to think about what *you* would do with their resources/position and be able to give advice, no? (They may never come back from a 60-glory campaign deficit, but it feels like that level of resource benefit should be enough to help grab milestones and eke out a *win* somewhere).

Are they all focusing on the same goal(s) and thus blocking each other? Are they just getting horridly unlucky with dice or cards? Are they just not going for high-glory rewards? Are they mis-estimating how many dice they should bring to an endeavor?
 
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heyvince wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
You should be starting every game with more resources than your opponents. So why aren't you doing better? You have a long-term disadvantage, but in the short term you should be able to win games and compete for the milestones that are out. Is it possible that your problem involves strategy and not just resources?


What should the strategy be? I'm running away with the lead with last place being about 60 points behind after 9 games. How should they be spending their catchup benefits? As the leader the first couple of turns are tight, but I can catch up by the last few turns. One of our players made the comment that it was a race for second place in the last game, I'd like for to give solid strategy suggestions for them to stay in the game.


Some players are not good enough to compete. There is nothing wrong with that. These players are only amplified in a legacy game which keeps track of game to game. If I would do the same with Nations, there would be one player who would be 60 points back of me in total points after 10 plays too. If we kept track of 10 games of Fleet, I would probably be 150 points back of first place.

I think that is probably the biggest challenge with a competitive legacy game. Some players just do not do well with certain styles of games, and there is no real way of dealing with that in Seafall, or my guess would be any other competitive legacy game.
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jesse largent
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Quote:
Some players are not good enough to compete. There is nothing wrong with that. These players are only amplified in a legacy game which keeps track of game to game. If I would do the same with Nations, there would be one player who would be 60 points back of me in total points after 10 plays too. If we kept track of 10 games of Fleet, I would probably be 150 points back of first place.

I think that is probably the biggest challenge with a competitive legacy game. Some players just do not do well with certain styles of games, and there is no real way of dealing with that in Seafall, or my guess would be any other competitive legacy game.


While there may be something to the level of players skills for sure, I'd like to think I'm actually a decent game player. I regularly win other games we play or at least come in second.

The design of the game could make it so that, even with fairly even player skills, the person who pulls ahead, or a player who falls to a tipping point behind, will never catch up. the game is decided much earlier on.

This may not be the case with this game (As I am not 30 points behind. meerly 9) and it could be that I pull ahead next game or maybe I dont.

From reading the forum so far it seems like a lot of peoples games are having one person pull way ahead of everyone else. I'd be curious to see how many people have games that go neck and neck and how many do have ones where theres a huge spread. If there is a signifigant amount of games with a huge spread, thats a design issue.

 
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After our first game, I am in the lead at 13 points. From there we have 12, 8, 6, and 4.

The player with 12 points
Spoiler (click to reveal)
has more bonuses due to 2 completed milestones, and the leader of his choice. Hence the pinch feeling I have. He has more permanent upgrades than I do.
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Becq Starforged
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Keep in mind that with those scores, you're almost tied as it is, and number of milestones claimed is a tiebreaker. But regardless, the first game is hardly the deciding factor in the campaign!
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J Kaemmer
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heyvince wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
You should be starting every game with more resources than your opponents. So why aren't you doing better? You have a long-term disadvantage, but in the short term you should be able to win games and compete for the milestones that are out. Is it possible that your problem involves strategy and not just resources?


What should the strategy be? I'm running away with the lead with last place being about 60 points behind after 9 games. How should they be spending their catchup benefits? As the leader the first couple of turns are tight, but I can catch up by the last few turns. One of our players made the comment that it was a race for second place in the last game, I'd like for to give solid strategy suggestions for them to stay in the game.


60 glory points behind? Wow.

That means starting gold of 44. If they can't turn that into a win, there's no hope.
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Becq Starforged
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I'm just curious ... how can someone manage to get (and stay) 60 glory ahead, what with their ships being constantly sunk?

And ... if that's not happening, why not?
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Matt Random
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heyvince wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
You should be starting every game with more resources than your opponents. So why aren't you doing better? You have a long-term disadvantage, but in the short term you should be able to win games and compete for the milestones that are out. Is it possible that your problem involves strategy and not just resources?


What should the strategy be? I'm running away with the lead with last place being about 60 points behind after 9 games. How should they be spending their catchup benefits? As the leader the first couple of turns are tight, but I can catch up by the last few turns. One of our players made the comment that it was a race for second place in the last game, I'd like for to give solid strategy suggestions for them to stay in the game.


I am about 1 game behind you guys (depending on how fast you completed milestones and things). We have 3 players within 5 of each other and the last 2 within 20 of the other 3. The winner of a game has never won a 2nd one in a row. They tend to start with no adviser(or a bad one) and being down even 12 gold is enough for the lower players to catch up and win games and if not then generally there isn't a milestone/booke entry that fits well with the previous winners strategy.

I honestly don't see how someone possibly falls behind so far unless they just aren't trying to win or nobody is competing with you. Even with the least efficient action their gold difference would be 3 glory from a treasure. That means you are out playing them so badly that you are winning by 3 glory, plus enough to continue to increase the lead... Are people not raiding your province? Killing your ships? Stealing your best adviser right before you want to use him? Sniping the site you were going for? There are so many ways to catch up...


Box 5 spoiler:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Okay for real, box 5 spoiler, don't spoil this it is amazing:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
If you have opened box 5 like us you now know about the light of truth, that much gold can be used to build a guild hall/library and quickly gain a LARGE information advantage over other players.
 
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Matt Random
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Becq wrote:
I'm just curious ... how can someone manage to get (and stay) 60 glory ahead, what with their ships being constantly sunk?

And ... if that's not happening, why not?


I realized one possibility as to what would cause this glory difference.

Octopus Box spoiler:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Seriously, Octopus box spoiler. Don't click this if the word "Patmos" means nothing to you
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Is Ker still unconquered? In our game our leader had 0 enmity on any islands and 0 colonies so he only put 1 enmity on Ker when he discovered it(which he removed at end of game), the rest of us had 3-6 which could strangle out every other player if nobody is rushing to conquer it. If this is you and you are very very quickly ending games in non-progressing ways treasures/relics/tablets/upgrades etc. It is possible that this could occur. That being said you only need 6 successes against a 3 garrison to end Ker, so it shouldn't last that long...
 
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Ian Liddle
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SomeoneRandom wrote:
Octopus Box spoiler:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Seriously, Octopus box spoiler. Don't click this if the word "Patmos" means nothing to you
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Is Ker still unconquered? In our game our leader had 0 enmity on any islands and 0 colonies so he only put 1 enmity on Ker when he discovered it(which he removed at end of game), the rest of us had 3-6 which could strangle out every other player if nobody is rushing to conquer it. If this is you and you are very very quickly ending games in non-progressing ways treasures/relics/tablets/upgrades etc. It is possible that this could occur. That being said you only need 6 successes against a 3 garrison to end Ker, so it shouldn't last that long...


Spoiler (click to reveal)
Equally serious Octopus box spoilers:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I just opened Patmos up last game... and conquering Ker sounds nearly impossible as a player with 6 enmity; roll 6 successes after losing 9 dice? Statistically, I'd need 18 dice to make that happen.

Right now the only way I can imagine doing that with what we have (we don't have box 3 open yet) is by getting the Soldier's Patron and a large supporting cast of Soldiers.

It's much more likely that I'll be getting / saving Rep and Fortune to wipe out that enmity over the next game or three, (and / or picking up & training the Patron) but I don't expect to win any of those games.

Currently, the 15-glory-underdog is the only one without enmity, so it feels okay as a balancing move, but if it was the point leader in that situation, I have to say that would feel rather hopeless...
 
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Becq Starforged
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"Cunning" may be your friend...
 
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