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Subject: Rule 13 and Rule 7 Questions [SPOILERS] rss

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Vince Alvarez
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Two Questions about Rule 13

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Exploring a Tomb: Do I gain a glory for successfully exploring a tomb AND and glory for the successfully completing the endeavor that the tomb entry instructs of me? For example. On my turn I hire the Explorer’s Guild and take a sail action to an island with the tomb. My second action is to Explore the tomb. The entry instructs me to attempt a Raid Endeavor, which I pass. Since I passed, the entry instructs me to gain 3 glory. I have now 1) taken a successful explore action, 2) made a successful Raid Endeavor, and 3) Read an entry which instructs me to gain 3 Glory. How much glory do I gain during this turn? 5 for the Explore, Raid, and entry? 4 for the Raid and entry? or Just just 3 for the entry?

Second question: Some of the entries instruct me attempt neither a Raid or Explore, for example a Attempt Sail Endeavor. I know that successfully passing Sail Endeavors during a Dangerous Waters checks does not gain glory. Would making a Sail Endeavor during your Explore a Tomb action gain a Glory?

Gaining 5 Glory for the first example and none for the second makes Tombs seems very swingy.


Rule 7
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Rule 7 states that Curses can only be removed by following their instructions or by a special power. Are Curses “Damage Cards” for all game effects. Does a ship that sails into a Port remove curses as well as standard damage cards? Can a Support Ship with the Fearless Upgrade take one Curse Card during an endeavor?
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gary g
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Re: Rule 13 and Rule & Questions [SPOILERS]
Spoiler (click to reveal)
We've been playing that the successful 'Explore' endeavor is worth the glory and the subsequent skill check is not an endeavor but you get the glory of the successful flavor text. So in the example you'd have earned 4.

It has been mentioned somewhere on board by JR that most Captain Log entries are really just a 'skill check' and not a full on 'glory endeavor' I'm searching for it atm.

I do wish they would have found a different word then endeavor to use for every 5th word in the Captains Booke. LOL
 
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Joseph Neville
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Re: Rule 13 and Rule & Questions [SPOILERS]
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The port will not remove curses and I would say the fearless upgrade would allow the support ship to take a curse for the flagship.
 
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JR Honeycutt
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heyvince wrote:
Two Questions about Rule 13

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Exploring a Tomb: Do I gain a glory for successfully exploring a tomb AND and glory for the successfully completing the endeavor that the tomb entry instructs of me? For example. On my turn I hire the Explorer’s Guild and take a sail action to an island with the tomb. My second action is to Explore the tomb. The entry instructs me to attempt a Raid Endeavor, which I pass. Since I passed, the entry instructs me to gain 3 glory. I have now 1) taken a successful explore action, 2) made a successful Raid Endeavor, and 3) Read an entry which instructs me to gain 3 Glory. How much glory do I gain during this turn? 5 for the Explore, Raid, and entry? 4 for the Raid and entry? or Just just 3 for the entry?

Second question: Some of the entries instruct me attempt neither a Raid or Explore, for example a Attempt Sail Endeavor. I know that successfully passing Sail Endeavors during a Dangerous Waters checks does not gain glory. Would making a Sail Endeavor during your Explore a Tomb action gain a Glory?

Gaining 5 Glory for the first example and none for the second makes Tombs seems very swingy.


Rule 7
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Rule 7 states that Curses can only be removed by following their instructions or by a special power. Are Curses “Damage Cards” for all game effects. Does a ship that sails into a Port remove curses as well as standard damage cards? Can a Support Ship with the Fearless Upgrade take one Curse Card during an endeavor?


1 - 1) and 3) happen

2 - no glory for those things

3 - I don't quite understand this question. Curses do not get removed a regular repair action - each curse will tell you how it gets removed
 
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Vince Alvarez
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jayahre wrote:

3 - I don't quite understand this question. Curses do not get removed a regular repair action - each curse will tell you how it gets removed


Maybe some examples can clarify.
Let's assume a Captain's Booke entry tells me to remove a damage card, can I remove a Curse?

If my cursed ship ends it's sail action in a Port can I remove curses as well as standard damage cards?
 
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James White
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So just to make sure our group does it correctly
Spoiler (click to reveal)
1) You take an explore endeavor versus the tombs defense. If successful gain glory and pick an entry in the tomb map. 2) Resolve entry taking whatever test and gain no glory from the test. 3) Do whatever book says, gain glory if it tells you too.


Thanks, and just want to say how much I'm glad that we are actually receiving rule feedback.
 
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Vince Alvarez
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Blakmage86 wrote:
So just to make sure our group does it correctly
Spoiler (click to reveal)
1) You take an explore endeavor versus the tombs defense. If successful gain glory and pick an entry in the tomb map. 2) Resolve entry taking whatever test and gain no glory from the test. 3) Do whatever book says, gain glory if it tells you too.


Thanks, and just want to say how much I'm glad that we are actually receiving rule feedback.


The way that I am understanding his clarification is that you take the Explore ACTION (not an Endeavor) then the entry will tell you how much Glory to gain if any. Basically you only gain the glory the book tells you to.
 
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Dean Millam
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
From looking at the rules in their entirety, I would say you get glory for successfully completing the explore endeavor (see page 10 for endeavor rules) and then additional glory per the captains book entry.

His original example he tried to eek out an extra glory for the raid attempt asked for by the captains book. That was one glory too far. The 3 glory given by the book should suffice but they should get 1 glory for a successful Tomb Exploration.


At least that's how I interpret the rules.
 
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Frank Pelkofer
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dmillam wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
From looking at the rules in their entirety, I would say you get glory for successfully completing the explore endeavor (see page 10 for endeavor rules) and then additional glory per the captains book entry.

His original example he tried to eek out an extra glory for the raid attempt asked for by the captains book. That was one glory too far. The 3 glory given by the book should suffice but they should get 1 glory for a successful Tomb Exploration.


At least that's how I interpret the rules.


I think this is the most concise statement of how this works that I've seen so far. But, I don't think it's quite right.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Exploring a tomb is not like exploring an unexplored island site. The language is troubling, because "explore" is used in both rules. But, they are different paragraphs. If you explore a tomb, you go straight to the back of the booke and pick an entry (no endeavor, no dice rolling). The booke entry will tell you what kind of endeavor you are rolling against and it will always give you an additional method for improving your chances. If you succeed in that endeavor, you get one glory. I don't think it matters what kind of endeavor it is, you get 1 glory if you succeed. Then you go to the paragraph that says what else you get.


I'm pretty sure that's what JR is trying to clarify up above when he says 1 and 3 happen (he really meant 2 and 3, because you don't do 1 at all). And I believe that's what the published rules say.
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J Kaemmer
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I'm so surprised that rule 13 is so difficult to build a consensus around, and JR's answers haven't been that clear or complete.

Is it
1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) roll explore endeavor
4) if you succeed gain 1 glory and choose an entry in the back
5) perform indicated endeavor
6) take indicated reward

(Bonus: can research be used on step 4?)

Or is it
1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) choose an entry in the back
4) perform indicated endeavor (no glory?)
5) take indicated reward
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Frank Pelkofer
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iswearihaveajob wrote:
I'm so surprised that rule 13 is so difficult to build a consensus around, and JR's answers haven't been that clear or complete.

Is it
1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) roll explore endeavor
4) if you succeed gain 1 glory and choose an entry in the back
5) perform indicated endeavor
6) take indicated reward

(Bonus: can research be used on step 4?)

Or is it
1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) choose an entry in the back
4) perform indicated endeavor (no glory?)
5) take indicated reward


The rules seem clear to me that it's the second, not the first. After reading rule 13 for the fifth (8th?) time, I'll concede that you might not get a glory for the endeavor within the tomb. I'm saying that based on comparison to the rule for trying to find new islands that says "gain a glory for the endeavor as normal." Rule 13 doesn't say to gain a glory as normal. But, it definitely doesn't say anything about doing an explore endeavor before you go to the back of the book.
 
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J Kaemmer
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countertorque wrote:
[q="iswearihaveajob"]I'm so surprised that rule 13 is so difficult to build a consensus around, and JR's answers haven't been that clear or complete.

Is it
1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) roll explore endeavor
4) if you succeed gain 1 glory and choose an entry in the back
5) perform indicated endeavor
6) take indicated reward

(Bonus: can research be used on step 4?)

Or is it
1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) choose an entry in the back
4) perform indicated endeavor (no glory?)
5) take indicated reward


The rules seem clear to me that it's the second, not the first. After reading rule 13 for the fifth (8th?) time, I'll concede that you might not get a glory for the endeavor within the tomb. I'm saying that based on comparison to the rule for trying to find new islands that says "gain a glory for the endeavor as normal." Rule 13 doesn't say to gain a glory as normal. But, it definitely doesn't say anything about doing an explore endeavor before you go to the back of the book.[/)q]

Ah. But Rule 12 doesn't say anything about an explore endeavor either! Its assumed because its an explore action. At this point I still have no idea.
 
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David desJardins
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iswearihaveajob wrote:
But Rule 12 doesn't say anything about an explore endeavor either!


You said that before, but it's not true. Rule 12 refers to "defense", "success", and "endeavor". Rule 13 has none of those in reference to the explore action.
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JR Honeycutt
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No, curses aren't removed at a port like normal damage cards - the only way to remove them is by doing what it says on the card (or by some other specific effect to curses, or by your ship sinking).
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Bill Crew
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I am still unclear on the ruling / consensus on any endeavor required during a tomb exploration. Does passing such an endeavor grant a glory in addition to any glory granted by the Booke?
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J Kaemmer
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Official answer!

RobDaviau wrote:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
Rob,
First of all, let me say I'm a huge fan of your work and that we are currently loving the Seafall campaign.

Now onto the question- Rule 13 "Exploring Tombs"

This rule has been somewhat divisive in the forums. People, including myself, cannot clearly decide nor build consensus whether tombs involve a complex 2-part explore action or single endeavor as dictated by the Captains Booke.

Is the proper sequence of events:

1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) roll explore endeavor
4) if you succeed, gain 1 glory and choose an entry in the back
5) perform indicated endeavor (no glory)
6) read appropriate entry and take indicated reward

(Bonus: can research be used on step 4?)

Or is it:

1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) choose an entry in the back
4) perform indicated endeavor (no glory?)
5) read appropriate entry and take indicated reward

The debate stems from whether or not the initial explore endeavor is implicit in the Explore Action, and the phrase "You may explore Tombs."

Thank you for you time!


Hey, sorry about the confusion on this one. Adding rules to a book means I only get one tiny little sticker to convey big ideas. Guess I cut too many corners on this one. The answer to your question is the second one. The tomb is already a known location -- can't explore that site again. Instead, tomb sites become gateways to the map at the back of the book. You do get glory for a tomb explore as normal.


So now we know for sure!
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Bill Crew
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I guess I'm still not totally clear on one point. In the sequence

1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) choose an entry in the back
4) perform indicated endeavor
5) read appropriate entry and take indicated reward

do you get a glory for step 4 if you succeed? plus any glory that might be awarded by the book entry?
 
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J Kaemmer
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mrcairo42 wrote:
I guess I'm still not totally clear on one point. In the sequence

1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) choose an entry in the back
4) perform indicated endeavor
5) read appropriate entry and take indicated reward

do you get a glory for step 4 if you succeed? plus any glory that might be awarded by the book entry?


I did ask the same followup question to Rob. The answer is YES you DO get glory for step 4.
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Becq Starforged
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The way I'm looking at it is that
Spoiler (click to reveal)
when you explore a tomb you are doing a *variant* explore. That is, you are taking an explore action, but instead of rolling your explore dice, you are rolling an alternate dice pool, as dictated by the tomb entry. But it's still "an explore endeavor", so you still get a glory for succeeding (ie, surviving and rolling 1+ successes), plus any bonuses described in the Captain's Booke text (based on degree of success).


I think that this interpretation is consistent with Rob's response, and also frames it more consistently with the general endeavor rules.
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J Kaemmer
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I think that's exactly it Becq. Good summary.
 
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Greg Filpus
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Do we have a clear consensus on whether you can apply the bonus from research? My instinct is that no, because "a tomb" is a distinct exploration from "a land site" or "a sea hex".

Or... (box 2 spoilers)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
...the colonies that give you a free success on explore/raid endeavors? If the Captain's Booke tells you to do a raid endeavor, is it actually an explore endeavor because you're doing it as part of an explore action?
 
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J Kaemmer
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I had separate question in to Rob about Research that confirmed that Tombs count as "land sites" for the sake of research cards an other effects. I would say that the "raid endeavor" as part of the explore action would NOT benefit from a guaranteed explore success.
 
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Blake Lusenhop
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When told to do a raid endeavor after exploring a tomb, do you factor in island enmity and garrison value to subtract dice from the roll?
 
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Becq Starforged
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I actually think that
(Box 3 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
tomb exploration is an "exploration endeavor" that uses an alternate pool, like Greg mentioned. Whether other effects like island powers effects these will depend on the exact wording. For example, ship upgrades say +1 Raid or +1 Explore, so these would only help when the designated pool matched (ie, you'd get the +1 Raid benefit only when exploring a tomb that required Raid). Colonies say "Add 1 success to Explore/Raid endeavors...", and I think that the Explore version would benefit all tomb exploration regardless of pool type, while Raid would never help in tombs -- because it's an Explore endeavor using a Raid pool. By the same logic, since it's not actually a Raid endeavor, enmity and garrison wouldn't impact the roll.
However, we just unlocked these rules, so I'll need to go back and look over the wording ... or wait for a clarification, whichever comes most conclusively.

If someone gets an answer from Rob, please let me know by PM so I can make sure it gets in the FAQ (otherwise I might miss it, as I tend to search for developer posts when compiling the FAQ).
 
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Becq Starforged
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Just checked the rule and the wording is (Box 3 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Quote:
You may explore an open tomb site. When you do, pick an entry from the tomb site map inside the back cover of the Captain's Booke and read the corresponding entry. The defense of the tomb is shown on the tomb sticker. Tombs may occasionally require other ship values instead of explore and always allow for other a second way to add dice to your endeavor
The bold portion is what makes me believe that exploring tombs is still treated as an exploration endeavor, but drawing from a different ship value for the die pool.
 
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