$30.00
$5.00
$15.00
$20.00
Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

Conan» Forums » General

Subject: Bassonian archers OP? General ranged fire issue? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Thomas Lund
Sweden
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
We've played the game twice now in the group, and each time the archers have had a extremely OP feeling. With rerolls, height difference bonus, ability to pick targets at will and unlimited range (in LOS) they can simply focus fire Conan and there is nothing he can do but die.

Are we somehow missing some rule or anything that makes ranged combat crazy unbalanced? Do others feel that there is something odd here, or just bad luck on our end?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephan Beal
Germany
Geltendorf
Bayern
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ThomasLund wrote:
Are we somehow missing some rule or anything that makes ranged combat crazy unbalanced?


Asks the user who has a bazooka in his profile picture.

9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
anthony dybacz
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Archers are good, but not as you describe (imo). We might need a little more information; Which scenario? Is Conan not spending gems in his guard stat? How many times are the archers shooting Conan?
Hard to help you unless we know context.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andi Anonymous
Germany
flag msg tools
Break LOS and you are good to go.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
anthony dybacz
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If he is playing Hunting the Tigress then there is nowhere to stand where the archers cannot shoot you; the most you can do is cause them to move back and forth across the deck as you use the ships masts.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathieu Hatt
France
Brest
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Two yellow dice (even with rerolls) is not very powerful. We kept rolling blank faces and archers really were not a menace for the heroes.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephan Beal
Germany
Geltendorf
Bayern
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
mathhatt wrote:
Two yellow dice (even with rerolls) is not very powerful. We kept rolling blank faces and archers really were not a menace for the heroes.


Moving Zaparov into their space gives them all yet another reroll from his Support skill. It was ruled in another thread that a Support reroll does not count for purposes of the "each die may be rerolled for free only once" limit. i.e. after the archers have made their re-rolls, Support allows them to reroll one of their dice one more time.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
yuffie kasiragi
msg tools
sgbeal wrote:
mathhatt wrote:
Two yellow dice (even with rerolls) is not very powerful. We kept rolling blank faces and archers really were not a menace for the heroes.


Moving Zaparov into their space gives them all yet another reroll from his Support skill. It was ruled in another thread that a Support reroll does not count for purposes of the "each die may be rerolled for free only once" limit. i.e. after the archers have made their re-rolls, Support allows them to reroll one of their dice one more time.


To be fair, this still needs you to move Zaparov to their tile first.
As the heroes got the first action phase, Shevatus or Hadratus can snipe 1 archer each with their ranged attacks for just a few gems .... and 2 archers, even with Zaparov boosting them, are not really worth spending a ton of gems on on OL Turn 1.


TLDR; yeah, they hurt, as ranged combat is strong, but there's counterplay and in the 1 scenerio with alot of open space, the setup kinda balances them.
But g'luck playing the tigress w/o any ranged of your own, another example that sadly you cant just mix and match any heroes for the scenarios =/
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Iain Row
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
But the reverse can be true...

We played at the weekend and Shevetas found a crossbow on turn one on his first activation. Belit came running across to lend her support action, and he just killed Skulthus in one shot straight away by pumping up one shot with all his dice!

Obviously bad luck that it was him who found it, and that it was on turn one, but I am thinking of modifying this scenario all the same to put at least one pirate into Skulthus' zone. He has protected but no minions on turn one!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Donato
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it is more cost-effective to move the archers to the area where Zaparov stands then vice versa.

They can move and shoot. And they have 2 Movement.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank Lee

Ohio
msg tools
They were so good in the Hunting the Tigress scenario they scored a round one kill of Belit. I'm really not so sure about these rules sometimes...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J P
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
frankelee wrote:
They were so good in the Hunting the Tigress scenario they scored a round one kill of Belit. I'm really not so sure about these rules sometimes...


You know Belit's guards have the "Sacrifice" skill, right?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Groesbeck
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
frankelee wrote:
They were so good in the Hunting the Tigress scenario they scored a round one kill of Belit. I'm really not so sure about these rules sometimes...


EDIT - I had a total brain fart and forgot the Yellow die has a 1 in 6 chance of rolling 2 hits, so the MAX damage for four archers is double what I said. I need to rethink this, and will post more after some time to mull it over.

There are four archers with two Yellow Dice each. So the MAX damage they can do is 8 points. Belit has 9 hit points. So what you describe is basically impossible.

I say basically because the OL could attack with the Archers twice on round one. Either by activating their tile twice (expensive on gems but doable) or by activating their tile once and the Event tile once (using the "Fire at Will" option).

So the archers could do up to 16 points of damage on round one, enough to kill Belit. But in practice this is not likely for a number of reasons.

1 - Even with free re-rolls it is probable that at least some of the attacks roll less than two damage. Some may even roll no damage.
2 - Belit has the tribal shield, so every time she spends one gem to defend, she is likely to reduce damage by one or two.
3 - As mentioned, her guards have Sacrifice so if she runs out of gems to defend with they can protect her.

If on the players round one Belit moves out from under protection of her guards (or orders them away from her), and spends all or almost all of her gems on actions such that she has few to defend with, then the archer double attack may well take her out on OL turn one. But that is more a case of issues with the player's strategy than an issue with the rules.

Getting back to the thread title question, I found the archers useful, but far from overpowered.


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Groesbeck
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
JamesG wrote:
frankelee wrote:
They were so good in the Hunting the Tigress scenario they scored a round one kill of Belit. I'm really not so sure about these rules sometimes...


EDIT - I had a total brain fart and forgot the Yellow die has a 1 in 6 chance of rolling 2 hits, so the MAX damage for four archers is double what I said. I need to rethink this, and will post more after some time to mull it over.

There are four archers with two Yellow Dice each. So the MAX damage they can do is 8 points. Belit has 9 hit points. So what you describe is basically impossible.

I say basically because the OL could attack with the Archers twice on round one. Either by activating their tile twice (expensive on gems but doable) or by activating their tile once and the Event tile once (using the "Fire at Will" option).

So the archers could do up to 16 points of damage on round one, enough to kill Belit. But in practice this is not likely for a number of reasons.

1 - Even with free re-rolls it is probable that at least some of the attacks roll less than two damage. Some may even roll no damage.
2 - Belit has the tribal shield, so every time she spends one gem to defend, she is likely to reduce damage by one or two.
3 - As mentioned, her guards have Sacrifice so if she runs out of gems to defend with they can protect her.

If on the players round one Belit moves out from under protection of her guards (or orders them away from her), and spends all or almost all of her gems on actions such that she has few to defend with, then the archer double attack may well take her out on OL turn one. But that is more a case of issues with the player's strategy than an issue with the rules.

Getting back to the thread title question, I found the archers useful, but far from overpowered.




So with a maximum damage of 16 points, the archers could kill Belit in one Activation, theoretically. But hitting that maximum is statistically unlikely. Let's look at averages to see how dangerous they are typically. I'll look at the Hunting the Tigress scenario specifically.

I'm going to assume that all four archers move to the area containing Zaporavo on their activation to take advantage of the free rerolls he grants. If I understand the LoS rules for this map as clarified by Monolith they will have a clear LoS to any area on the Tigress from here. It will cost two gems to move two of the archers a third space to get there. If the OL cannot spare the gems, or chooses not to, the analysis would not change much. The reroll from Zaporavo is only worth about .25 points of damage per archer each time they shoot.

I'll be drawing my dice roll data from here:
zerg wrote:
ok finaly more dice more rerolls

http://anydice.com/program/8d82


A couple of caveats. The "2 yellow 3 reroll" results are going to be slightly higher than this situation allows since a single die would not be able to be rerolled three times as the anydice results allow (assuming I understand how the anydice results are calculated). Likewise the average in this situation would be higher than the total of "1 yellow 1 reroll" and "1 yellow 2 reroll" since that 2nd reroll is not "fixed" to one die but can float to whichever one rolls no hits after the first reroll. So I'm going to split the difference and assume each archer shot averages 2.27.

So, on average, a single activation of the Archers would do just over 9 points of damage to Belit, enough to barely kill her. And a double shot, either by activating the Archer tile twice or the Archer tile once and the "Fire at Will" Event once, can generate over 18 points of damage, easily enough to kill her.

Scenario broken, right?

Not so fast. Belit has the Tribal Shield so each time she spends a gem to defend she'll block, on average, 2 points of damage. So she can more or less neutralize an archer shot per gem. Every fourth shot or so will get a point of damage past her defense, on average. And if she didn't save enough gems to defend vs. 8 shots in the event of a double shot, she has her guards who can use Sacrifice to block a shot (a guard could even get lucky and survive, but this is a fairly low chance, around 15-20% maybe).

So assuming Belit goes into the OL turn with 8 or more "defensive options" she should survive even an archer double shot with little damage. By "defensive options" I mean gems in her reserve or guards in her area. So it can be 5 gems and 3 guards, or 6 gems and 2 guards, etc.

Barring poor play by the Heroes or extreme luck in the OL's favor, Belit is very unlikely to be killed by the Archers on turn one. And even if it does happen, it'll be a one time thing for any particular group. On replays the Heroes won't be so careless with Belit, and/or will be sure Shevatas takes out a couple of Archers with his Throwing Knives on the Heroes first turn.

I will say that looking at the numbers has upped my respect for the Archers a little more. I still don't think they are over powered, but they'll be a little more of a priority target when I play the Hero side, and a priority activation as OL.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Zsolt
msg tools
mbmbmb
Only one person has mentioned the sacrifice skill, and there was no reply to that one. Does elite shooter overcome sacrifice or does sacrifice still come into play with Bossonian Archers? If so then the archers would nee to kill the Belit's guards first.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Conan Meriadoc
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Footballzs wrote:
Only one person has mentioned the sacrifice skill, and there was no reply to that one. Does elite shooter overcome sacrifice or does sacrifice still come into play with Bossonian Archers? If so then the archers would nee to kill the Belit's guards first.

They don't overcome Sacrifice, only the other defense skill (Protected ?). You definitely have to get rid of the guards first. But they're a bit soft and they die quickly

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Zsolt
msg tools
mbmbmb
So to kill Belit you have to kill her guard, overcome her defence, shield and parry. If you manage to kill her in one turn you have done EXTREMELY well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.