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Star Trek: Ascendancy» Forums » Rules

Subject: Klingon culture question rss

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Mr Snotface
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If I attack the Klingons and win, but lose 3 ships in the process do they get a culture?
 
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Grant Whitesell

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They absolutely do! Dying in glorious combat is their thing. And their player board does not specify that they have to initiate the battle, either so if you attack them and lose three ships, they get a culture.

Hell, the 'Cult of Kahless' tech card practically encourages them to die in combat to gain culture.

NOTE: It's not "one culture for every three ships" it's "a space battle in which you destroyed at least three ships" so destroying a romulan fleet of 9 will not get you three culture. That came up on our last game.
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Angelus Seniores
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Snotface wrote:
If I attack the Klingons and win, but lose 3 ships in the process do they get a culture?

no they dont, the key element in the rule is that they must defeat their opponent, so if you as their opponent wins the battle then you are not defeated hence no bonus culture.

but if both are defeated at the same time they do get the bonus, ie as long as that "defeat" is applicable.
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Grant Whitesell

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It says 'defeat 3 or more ships in a Battle.' In the glossary of terms there is no distinction made between 'defeat' or 'destroy' so I don't see any stipulation that they have to win the battle, just defeat three ships.

EDIT: This seems ambiguous enough that I'd appreciate someone from Gale Force 9 clarifying whether the Klingons have to *win* said space battle in order to obtain their culture bonus, or just defeat at least three of the attacker's ships. To me, this is what makes them such a viable late-game threat and balances out the Federation's strong early game and Romulan's strong mid-late game.
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Guðmundur Skallagrímson
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This is what we have so far:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23277216#23277216

I admit it is still a little ambiguous.
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Nova Cat
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You're in luck. They've already ruled that the Klingons only get their Ever Victorious culture when the enemy loses. That is, either the Klingons win, or both sides destroy each other.
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Mr Snotface
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Novacat wrote:
You're in luck. They've already ruled that the Klingons only get their Ever Victorious culture when the enemy loses. That is, either the Klingons win, or both sides destroy each other.


do you have a link?
 
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Grant Whitesell

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Novacat wrote:
You're in luck. They've already ruled that the Klingons only get their Ever Victorious culture when the enemy loses. That is, either the Klingons win, or both sides destroy each other.


Yup, there it is. I stand corrected. Though, I'm still a little hazy on a Romulan retreat with the cloaking tech in this instance, but GF9 kind of intimated that the Klingons still get the culture if the Roms cloak away.

Link to the ruling is in what Svalbard McLongnameson posted.
 
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Gary Masters
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The question is about if you attack the Klingons and win, but lose 3 ships. The reply from GF9 seems to be referring specifically to retreat.

Let's say the Federation, with a fleet of 5 ships, attacks some Klingons. When the Klingons are all dead, the Federation only has 1 ship left, which means that they win, but 4 of their ships were destroyed.

Do the Klingons get their culture?
 
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Nova Cat
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GrantZilla1979 wrote:
Though, I'm still a little hazy on a Romulan retreat with the cloaking tech in this instance, but GF9 kind of intimated that the Klingons still get the culture if the Roms cloak away.

Nope. The Advanced Cloaking Technology allows the romulans to avoid combat altogether. No battle took place, so no culture is gained.
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Nova Cat
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Gazbowski wrote:
The question is about if you attack the Klingons and win, but lose 3 ships. The reply from GF9 seems to be referring specifically to retreat.

Let's say the Federation, with a fleet of 5 ships, attacks some Klingons. When the Klingons are all dead, the Federation only has 1 ship left, which means that they win, but 4 of their ships were destroyed.

Do the Klingons get their culture?

No. The Federation was not defeated.
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Gary Masters
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That doesn't make sense though. If the whole opposing force needed to be defeated in order for the perk to activate wouldn't it have made more sense for it to be worded along the lines of "Take 1 culture when you win any single combat having destroyed 3 or more enemy ships"

I'm not saying either way is right or wrong, but I'm certainly open to the fact that it's ambiguous.
 
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Nova Cat
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Gazbowski wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. If the whole opposing force needed to be defeated in order for the perk to activate wouldn't it have made more sense for it to be worded along the lines of "Take 1 culture when you win any single combat having destroyed 3 or more enemy ships"

I'm not saying either way is right or wrong, but I'm certainly open to the fact that it's ambiguous.

You don't need to destroy the entire enemy force. If you destroy 1 ship, and the other 2 retreat, that's still a defeat. If you both destroy each other, you didn't win, but the enemy was still defeated. Even if you don't destroy any ships at all, if they retreat, that's still a defeat.
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Gary Masters
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I understand the concept of what "defeat" means, thanks

So let's rephrase that then, to make my intent clearer. Why doesn't the ability say

"Gain 1 culture when you *defeat* an enemy force that contains 3 or more ships"
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George
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Gazbowski wrote:
I understand the concept of what "defeat" means, thanks

So let's rephrase that then, to make my intent clearer. Why doesn't the ability say

"Gain 1 culture when you *defeat* an enemy force that contains 3 or more ships"


I believe that is the intent so that would be much better wording, imo.

Gale Force 9 thumbed this post which sums it up well:

Darkmancer wrote:
Your overcomplicating it.

There are 2 conditions to gain the culture.

1. Is there 3 or more enemy ships at the start of the combat. Destroy/Retreat doesn't matter.

2. Was the enemy fleet defeated? In the case of a draw as both sides are defeated you gain the culture.
 
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James J

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Gazbowski wrote:
I understand the concept of what "defeat" means, thanks

So let's rephrase that then, to make my intent clearer. Why doesn't the ability say

"Gain 1 culture when you *defeat* an enemy force that contains 3 or more ships"


You're asking us to interpret the decisions made by GF9, which is impossible. SHOULD it be phrased that way? Sure. WHY isn't it? That's an entirely different question.

I admit I had this one wrong as well. I thought it triggered as soon as 3 ships were destroyed, regardless of outcome, but "defeat" is the key. Basically, this Klingon ability is a fleet-hunter. Any fleet (which, by definition will contain 3 or more ships) is a prime target for this bonus. If you have a fleet on the board, be prepared to defend it successfully or the Klingons will gain from the encounter.
 
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William Hardy
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I also had it wrong but, for sheer playability, I think "wrong" is right. The Klingons seem to be the most disadvantaged civ, unless they are very lucky, and giving them a culture token for their glorious annihilation of three enemy vessels helps balance the game (as well as being very Klingon).
 
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Craig S.
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whardy wrote:
I also had it wrong but, for sheer playability, I think "wrong" is right. The Klingons seem to be the most disadvantaged civ, unless they are very lucky, and giving them a culture token for their glorious annihilation of three enemy vessels helps balance the game (as well as being very Klingon).


I dunno...I think the requirement to win the battle in order to get the culture makes sense. Think about a situation in which the Klingons are the defenders. If a rival is going to spend a command to effectively give them the chance to get a culture token, they should have to win the battle to earn the culture.
 
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William Hardy
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I see your point. It's been my experience, though, that if the Klingons don't get a lot of production right off the bat, they have little chance. Even with the wrong interpretation, they have never actually won (though they make interesting suicidal spoilers).
 
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Craig S.
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whardy wrote:
It's been my experience, though, that if the Klingons don't get a lot of production right off the bat, they have little chance.


That's what Marauder fleets are for. Fuel for the war machine. A vicious cycle.
 
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Tim Earl
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Klingons won our first game and were headed to victory in our second game until the Romulans and Federation attacked from different sides.
 
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William Hardy
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The Marauder Fleet is a Klingon dream weapon all right. But this is the dynamic I saw after the first few games: F & R are reluctant to trade large (+3) with K because that production will soon be used against them and, for R, result in broken Trade Agreements (TA) which really disadvantage R. For R, it's better to have a good TA with F because it tends to be more stable, although at the cost of fueling F's advances. If K doesn't get lucky at the beginning with high production systems, K gets starved for production as the game develops. I am hoping that the expansions due this month will open up the game and change that trading pattern.
 
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Pas L
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So what is the final consensus here?

Only get a culture when they win a battle, or there is mutual destruction, when the opposing side has at least three ships at the start?
 
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Nova Cat
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lamaros wrote:
So what is the final consensus here?

Only get a culture when they win a battle, or there is mutual destruction, when the opposing side has at least three ships at the start?

That's correct.
 
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William Hardy
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So...mutual destruction is a win for the Klingons? Probably in their minds. Is there anything in the rules about that (I can't recall seeing it). Actually, this is my solution to the issue we (Nova Cat and I) discussed in the thread about rolling doubles. I think it's aesthetically and logically absurd to go rooting around in one's failed throws trying to pair up numbers to get more kills, but I agree with N.C. that the Klingons have a poor deck of advancements. Therefore, I let them have a culture for any battle in which they destroy (not necessarily defeat) three enemy ships. It's a cleaner solution and encourages the suicidal belligerence that makes them so charming.
 
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