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1846: The Race for the Midwest» Forums » Rules

Subject: Private Company Abilities Questions (GMT 2016 Version) rss

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Murr Rockstroh
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Let me see if I understand how some of these things work.

Michigan Central and Ohio & Indiana

If the owning player lays both tiles in its reserved hexes, then these tiles must connect to each other.

E Does this mean, if I own the private company, not a corporation, I am allowed to lay track in these reserved spaces, with the restriction that they must connect? (also following all the other restrictions of a player laying track tiles as described in Section 6.4)

Other corporations may not lay tiles in these hexes until these companies have been bought by a corporation or removed.

E Does this mean that if I sell the private company to a corporation that I currently am the president of, and I don't take advantage of the special ability fairly soon, I run the risk of someone else building track on the two reserved locations?

E Also, in this case, if I do use the special ability, am I still under the restriction that they must connect?

Chicago and Western Indiana:

This company's ability may not be used if its owning corporation already has a token in Chicago.

E This I understand.

No token may be placed in the C&WI's spot until the C&WI is either purchased or removed.

E Does this mean if I sell this to a corporation I am currently president of, and I don't place a token of that corporation in Chicago fairly soon, I might lose the ability because other players might fill up Chicago? Basically once a corporation owns this private company, the reserve status of the spot is removed, but the owning corporation could still put a token there assuming the space was still available?

Meat Packing Company and the Steamboat Company

After being purchased the corporation owning each of these companies may place -- or shift with the Steamboat Company -- a marker among the listed locations, adding its value to the corporation's routes that count this location. Use the second marker for the corporation after removing the company in phase III (before these markers are removed in phase IV).

E The reason there are two markers is that one of them is used to track which company is getting the bonus, correct?

Before the Steamboat Company is purchased by a corporation, its owner can assign its marker during the private income step to a corporation or Independent Railroad, using its second marker to indicate this. Remove both markers once it is purchased.

NOTES: The Steamboat marker for the board has two sides: one side shows the $40 value for when it is placed in Holland or Wheeling. In the round in which it is purchased, two corporations could each benefit from the Steamboat Company's marker.


E Specifically, the last sentence of the "NOTES" section is telling me I could assign the marker to a corporation during the operating round of a corporation running, then later in the same round, sell the Steamboat Company to another corporation to allow it to receive the bonus as well, correct?
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Mike Anastasia
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Murr wrote:
Michigan Central and Ohio & Indiana

If the owning player lays both tiles in its reserved hexes, then these tiles must connect to each other.

E Does this mean, if I own the private company, not a corporation, I am allowed to lay track in these reserved spaces, with the restriction that they must connect? (also following all the other restrictions of a player laying track tiles as described in Section 6.4)
Nope. Per 3.1, and repeated on page 12, the private company powers may not be used until owned by a corporation. As noted near 3.1, The Steamboat company has a specific exception to this rule. Your quote should probably say "owning corporation" or "operating player" rather than "owning player".
Murr wrote:
Other corporations may not lay tiles in these hexes until these companies have been bought by a corporation or removed.

E Does this mean that if I sell the private company to a corporation that I currently am the president of, and I don't take advantage of the special ability fairly soon, I run the risk of someone else building track on the two reserved locations?
Exactly correct. You probably want to use the ability immediately after the purchase 99% of the time anyway.
Murr wrote:
E Also, in this case, if I do use the special ability, am I still under the restriction that they must connect?
That restriction always applies.
Murr wrote:
Chicago and Western Indiana:No token may be placed in the C&WI's spot until the C&WI is either purchased or removed.

E Does this mean if I sell this to a corporation I am currently president of, and I don't place a token of that corporation in Chicago fairly soon, I might lose the ability because other players might fill up Chicago? Basically once a corporation owns this private company, the reserve status of the spot is removed, but the owning corporation could still put a token there assuming the space was still available?
Correct. Again, you probably want to use this ability immediately after the purchase.
Murr wrote:
Meat Packing Company and the Steamboat Company

After being purchased the corporation owning each of these companies may place -- or shift with the Steamboat Company -- a marker among the listed locations, adding its value to the corporation's routes that count this location. Use the second marker for the corporation after removing the company in phase III (before these markers are removed in phase IV).

E The reason there are two markers is that one of them is used to track which company is getting the bonus, correct?
Yes.
Murr wrote:
Before the Steamboat Company is purchased by a corporation, its owner can assign its marker during the private income step to a corporation or Independent Railroad, using its second marker to indicate this. Remove both markers once it is purchased.

NOTES: The Steamboat marker for the board has two sides: one side shows the $40 value for when it is placed in Holland or Wheeling. In the round in which it is purchased, two corporations could each benefit from the Steamboat Company's marker.


E Specifically, the last sentence of the "NOTES" section is telling me I could assign the marker to a corporation during the operating round of a corporation running, then later in the same round, sell the Steamboat Company to another corporation to allow it to receive the bonus as well, correct?
Also correct.EDIT: Apparently I was close to correct. The player can do the assignment during the private income step, not during the operating turn of the first company. The result is very similar. See Tom's post below.
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Tom Lehmann
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Murr wrote:
Michigan Central and Ohio & Indiana

rules wrote:
If the owning player lays both tiles in its reserved hexes, then these tiles must connect to each other.

Does this mean, if I own the private company, not a corporation, I am allowed [...]

No. The owning player can't use Private Company abilities, with the exception of the Steamboat company. See 3.1 and 6.93. I agree that this sentence should say "corporation", not "player" (as it does say in the Exceptions following 6.47).

Quote:
rules wrote:
Other corporations may not lay tiles in these hexes until these companies have been bought by a corporation or removed.

Does this mean that if I sell the private company to a corporation that I currently am the president of, and I don't take advantage of the special ability fairly soon, I run the risk of someone else building track on the two reserved locations?

Yes.

Quote:
Also, in this case, if I do use the special ability, am I still under the restriction that they must connect [to each other]?

Yes, see 6.47.

Quote:
Chicago and Western Indiana:

rules wrote:
No token may be placed in the C&WI's spot until the C&WI is either purchased or removed.

Does this mean if I sell this to a corporation I am currently president of, and I don't place a token of that corporation in Chicago fairly soon, I might lose the ability because other players might fill up Chicago?

Yes.

Quote:
Basically once a corporation owns this private company, the reserve status of the spot is removed, but the owning corporation could still put a token there assuming the space was still available?

Yes.

Quote:
Meat Packing Company and the Steamboat Company
The reason there are two markers is that one of them is used to track which company is getting the bonus?

Yes.

Quote:
rules wrote:
Before the Steamboat Company is purchased by a corporation, its owner can assign its marker *during the private income step* to a corporation or Independent Railroad, using its second marker to indicate this. Remove both markers once it is purchased. (emphasis added)

NOTES: The Steamboat marker for the board has two sides: one side shows the $40 value for when it is placed in Holland or Wheeling. In the round in which it is purchased, two corporations could each benefit from the Steamboat Company's marker.

Is the last sentence [...] telling me I could assign the marker to a corporation during the operating round of a corporation running [...]?

No. Any assignment by a player takes place during the private income step (as stated in the emphasized text).

Quote:
[...] then later in the same round, sell the Steamboat Company to another corporation to allow it to receive the bonus as well?

Correct.

Typically, this rule allows a player to assign its token to the MS Independent RR for use in Toledo (as Independent RRs can't buy Private Companies) and then sell it to a corporation (say, to the B&O for use in Wheeling) who then can use it in the same operating round.
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Eric Brosius
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
Typically, this rule allows a player to assign its token to the MS Independent RR for use in Toledo (as Independent RRs can't buy Private Companies) and then sell it to a corporation (say, to the B&O for use in Wheeling) who then can use it in the same operating round.

That's my experience also.

In theory, a player who starts two early corporations could assign the power to the corporation that operates first, then buy it in with the corporation that operates second, thus getting a second use. (Early because if you wait very long, the first brown train will probably come out and the Steamboat, along with all the other private companies except a bought-in Mail Contract, will vanish.) However, I have never seen this happen in 171 games played.
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Mike Anastasia
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Eric Brosius wrote:
In theory, a player who starts two early corporations could assign the power to the corporation that operates first, then buy it in with the corporation that operates second, thus getting a second use. (Early because if you wait very long, the first brown train will probably come out and the Steamboat, along with all the other private companies except a bought-in Mail Contract, will vanish.) However, I have never seen this happen in 171 games played.
I've done this exactly once. It was a cool trick but it was only possible because I had already gone down a poor strategic path. I would not seek to repeat that gamestate.
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Murr Rockstroh
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Thanks for the replies! I hope to get this to the table very soon. It's been a long long time since I've played an 18xx game. The last one being 1830 back in the mid 80's. I also had/have the computer version of 1830 from the early 90's.
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David Gibbs
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
Murr wrote:
Michigan Central and Ohio & Indiana

Quote:
rules wrote:
Other corporations may not lay tiles in these hexes until these companies have been bought by a corporation or removed.

Does this mean that if I sell the private company to a corporation that I currently am the president of, and I don't take advantage of the special ability fairly soon, I run the risk of someone else building track on the two reserved locations?

Yes.



This seems to contradict the meaning of "Reserved" given in the glossary:

rules: Glossary wrote:
Reserved: a city spot or hexes that only a certain corporation or Private Company can use, until either it is removed or Phase IV, whichever occurs first.


In another thread ( https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24336493#24336493 )

Someone asks:
"If a hex with a reserved token place (e.g. Cincinnati) is upgraded, does that remove the reservation? "

And Tom answers:

Tom Lehmann wrote:
No. The reservation is for *a spot in a city*, not a particular tile. It lasts until either the Corporation is closed or Phase IV occurs, whichever happens first. See 6.53 or page 22, Glossary, "Reserved".


There is a similar Chicago & Western Indiana (C&WI) reserved token place in Chicago.

Is that token-spot treated like a Corporation token-spot, and last until removal or Phase IV? Or does the reservation go away as soon as the private company is purchased?

Or, more generally, how long do the various types of reservations actually last?

 
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J C Lawrence
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You are looking for a single unified game-specific definition of "reserved" across the rules when instead it is being used as a common English word. And sure, its use in the glossary encourages that, but the assumption is wrong. It is just a standard dictionary word.

A hex which is reserved by a private is reserved until that private is closed or owned by a company.

A home station location is reserved for that company without exception.

A teleport station location (eg B&O or PRR) is reserved if the company has not been removed from the game, and is reserved until phase 4.

All of these uses are consistent with the standard definition of "reserved". The specific application of the term in each case varies contextually.
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Mike Anastasia
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To offer a bit of support to JC's answers:
clearclaw wrote:
A hex which is reserved by a private is reserved until that private is closed or owned by a company.
Page 7, 6.45, and Page 12, paragraph 2.
clearclaw wrote:
A home station location is reserved for that company without exception.
Implied by Page 7, 6.52
I've always been under the impression that there was an exception to this rule in the case of a closed company, but I can't find such an exception in the rulebook.
clearclaw wrote:
A teleport station location (eg B&O or PRR) is reserved if the company has not been removed from the game, and is reserved until phase 4.
Page 7, 6.53
 
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David Gibbs
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clearclaw wrote:
You are looking for a single unified game-specific definition of "reserved" across the rules when instead it is being used as a common English word. And sure, its use in the glossary encourages that, but the assumption is wrong. It is just a standard dictionary word.



I would normally have treated it with its usual English meaning -- except, as you point out, I was confused by the choice to include it in the glossary and then assign a specific meaning to it, and further by Tom quoting the glossary to explain what "reserved" meant in a particular instance.

Perhaps "reserved" should not have been included in the glossary. (As "backtracking is not so included, implying the standard English meaning for it.)
 
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Tom Lehmann
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dagibbs wrote:
This seems to contradict the meaning of "Reserved" given in the glossary

There is no contradiction. You are making an incorrect assumption that is leading you astray.

Corporation reservations last until Phase IV or the corporation is removed.

Private Company reservations last *for the Private Company as an independent entity* until the Private Co. is removed (by Phase III).

Where things get tricky is when a Private Co. is bought by a RR Corporation. You seem to be assuming that all Private Co. properties then become Corporation properties. This is incorrect. A RR buying the Steamboat Co. doesn't get to assign the port marker to other RRs; a RR buying an Independent doesn't get to run a train splitting its revenues 50-50; etc. When a RR buys a Private Co. it gets certain abilities that it can exercise as spelled out in the rules.

Both 6.45 and the MC/O&I entries on page 12 state that their respective hexes are reserved until the MC/O&I is purchased or removed.

Page 12 spells out the same rule for the C&WI token.

One of two reasons that the MC/O&I/C&WI's tile lays and token placement can be done *at any time* during their owning RRs' turns -- such as immediately upon purchase whether that purchase takes place early in the turn or after paying dividends -- is that their prior reservations do go away upon purchase.
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David Gibbs
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Thank you everyone for the clarification.

It seems to be as I first thought as I read through the various sections, before I came to the glossary entry for "reserved" which then confused me.
 
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Hi all, with regards to LSL, MC and O&I, although it has been spelt out very clearly in the rule book, I just need a confirmation on this forum that the tracks laid by these companies NEED NOT to be connected to the owning corporation's station token right?

 
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Tom Lehmann
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Correct.
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Eric Brosius
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cowseye wrote:
Hi all, with regards to LSL, MC and O&I, although it has been spelt out very clearly in the rule book, I just need a confirmation on this forum that the tracks laid by these companies NEED NOT to be connected to the owning corporation's station token right?

Yes, and in fact, in our games a player whose corporation owns the MC but does not expect to use any track so far north sometimes uses its power to place two "sharp curve" #7 tiles in those spaces, connecting to each other but to nothing else, just to make things difficult for people owning the GT and/or MS.

We call this "Mickey Mouse ears".
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David Damerell
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cowseye wrote:
Hi all, with regards to LSL, MC and O&I, although it has been spelt out very clearly in the rule book, I just need a confirmation on this forum that the tracks laid by these companies NEED NOT to be connected to the owning corporation's station token right?


I do wonder who you play with who is willing to ignore the rulebook, quite unequivocal on this, but will believe some random person on the 'geek.
 
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Eric Brosius
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damerell wrote:
I do wonder who you play with who is willing to ignore the rulebook, quite unequivocal on this, but will believe some random person on the 'geek.

I share your wonder, but the answer here was given by the designer and not some random person.
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Chris Chew
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damerell wrote:
cowseye wrote:
Hi all, with regards to LSL, MC and O&I, although it has been spelt out very clearly in the rule book, I just need a confirmation on this forum that the tracks laid by these companies NEED NOT to be connected to the owning corporation's station token right?


I do wonder who you play with who is willing to ignore the rulebook, quite unequivocal on this, but will believe some random person on the 'geek.


I had been stopped a couple of games by my gaming group not be able to use this to screw up their tracks... And I could not find the reference in the rule book in time before we have to move on with the game....

Thanks for all your replies
 
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Martin Hall
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C&WI reserves a spot in Chicago "in which the owning corporation may place an extra token at no cost".

This is an extra token in the sense that the owning corporation may now place more tokens in total.
Is it also an extra token that can be placed in an operating round?

In a normal operating round a corporation may only place 1 token, but this C&WI placement is the exercise of a private company ability which can take place at any point of an operating round. I would interpret this as being in addition to any token placed as normal during the operating round.

For instance, it would be possible to run trains, pay dividends, buy C&WI using dividends on treasury stock and then place the permitted token, even if a token was placed earlier during step B of the operating round.


Incidentally, the place in the rules where it explicitly says you do not have to be connected to one of your tokens to use the private company abilities (which includes laying track in some cases) is page 12 Private Company Abilities:
"After being purchased by a corporation, these companies’ abilities may be used at any time while its owning corporation operates, without needing a connection from one of its tokens."
 
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Eric Brosius
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gamer42_au wrote:
Is it also an extra token that can be placed in an operating round?

Yes! You may place the token from the C&WI and a regular token in a single OR. (In theory, you could place up to 4 tokens in a single OR: from C&WI, Michigan Southern, Big 4, and a normal one, but drafting $300 worth of private companies is probably not a good idea.)
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Palmer Eldritch
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Eric Brosius wrote:
but drafting $300 worth of private companies is probably not a good idea.)


Even in the 2 player variant?
 
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Eric Brosius
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You're right; I wasn't thinking about 2-player.
 
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