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SeaFall» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rule 13 rss

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J Kaemmer
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This one is a bit off, mostly because we had been playing it one way and I'm seeing references to people doing it other ways.

Box 3 spoilers below:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The rules for exploring tombs are as follows "You may explore a tomb site. When you do, pick an entry from the tomb map on the inside back cover... The defense of the tomb is shown on the sticker. Tombs may occasionally require other ship values instead of explore ..."

The other rules for explore refer to an "unexplored site"

Now the question is. Do you take 1 or 2 endeavors for exploring a tomb and how many glory are available? I've been seeing a lot of people talking about tombs giving 2 glory, and that seems pretty wrong.

I THINK it is 1 explore endeavor to get into the tomb. 1 Glory. Then a separate endeavor inside the tomb. No Glory, because Captains Booke entries are not true "endeavors" so much as skill tests.

On the other hand I could see an argument for only 1 test, where the Captains Booke entry replaces the explore endeavor altogether. Note that the rules do not say "when you succeed..." or "instead of the front map...". It essentially says "When you take the explore action, go to the back of the booke and pick an entry, then take the test indicated." If this is the case it almost seems like NO GLORY is gained because it is Captains Booke test. Then again...

I just find it odd that
a) People are talking on the forums like tombs are 2 points each
b) The first mention of defense in the tomb entry is AFTER you pick an entry.
c) Rule 13 does not make clear reference to a standard explore endeavor d) Rule 13 isn't even worded that similarly to the "Exploring the Sea Entry" (granted it makes no mention of an endeavor either and assumes you can figure it out), it would've been nice to say "gain glory for..." like Rule 12 does


Thank you!
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David desJardins
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iswearihaveajob wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
On the other hand I could see an argument for only 1 test, where the Captains Booke entry replaces the explore endeavor altogether. Note that the rules do not say "when you succeed..." or "instead of the front map...". It essentially says "When you take the explore action, go to the back of the booke and pick an entry, then take the test indicated."


This.

The questions about what other people are talking about, I'm not going to touch.
 
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TJ
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You get glory for successful endeavors. Taking an explore action on a tomb site in of itself is not an endeavor, and does not grant glory. If you are successful at the endeavor required by the tomb entry, you get 1 glory. Some tomb rewards may provide additional glory as specified.
 
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Sam Bookler
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Slyght wrote:
You get glory for successful endeavors. Taking an explore action on a tomb site in of itself is not an endeavor, and does not grant glory. If you are successful at the endeavor required by the tomb entry, you get 1 glory. Some tomb rewards may provide additional glory as specified.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
So, wait - I'm not 100% clear - do you have to do an explore action first to get in the tomb, then look up the tomb entry and do the endeavor it instructs OR do you go straight to the entry and that just is exploring the tomb (regardless of endeavor type it requires)?
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David desJardins
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supraking777 wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
So, wait - I'm not 100% clear - do you have to do an explore action first to get in the tomb, then look up the tomb entry and do the endeavor it instructs OR do you go straight to the entry and that just is exploring the tomb (regardless of endeavor type it requires)?


Both are correct. What's the difference between your two alternatives?

Spoiler (click to reveal)
1. Hire the explorers guild.
2. Choose the explore action.
3. Select an open tomb at your location.
4. Select an available tomb entry on the back cover.
5. Consult the corresponding paragraph.
6. Perform the designated endeavor.
7. Follow the instructions.
 
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J Kaemmer
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DaviddesJ wrote:
supraking777 wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
So, wait - I'm not 100% clear - do you have to do an explore action first to get in the tomb, then look up the tomb entry and do the endeavor it instructs OR do you go straight to the entry and that just is exploring the tomb (regardless of endeavor type it requires)?


Both are correct. What's the difference between your two alternatives?

Spoiler (click to reveal)
1. Hire the explorers guild.
2. Choose the explore action.
3. Select an open tomb at your location.
4. Select an available tomb entry on the back cover.
5. Consult the corresponding paragraph.
6. Perform the designated endeavor.
7. Follow the instructions.


The difference is 2 dice rolls or 1. 1 to get in. 1 for the encounter.
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David desJardins
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You need to be more precise with your language.

An "action" is when you select one of the options provided by the guild you hire. It doesn't necessarily involve rolling any dice.

An "endeavor" is a specific process, described in the rules, that involves constructing a dice pool and rolling dice and counting successes.

An "encounter" is not a term that appears in the rules at all.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Entering the tomb is an explore action. It may or may not generate an explore endeavor or some other type of endeavor---you consult the Captain's Booke to see what to do.
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J Kaemmer
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You could be a little more considerate with your language. As well as more clear yourself, as you fail to really address the whole of my concerns, let alone communicating the "why."

I know what an action is. I know what an endeavor is. I'm not an idiot. Unfortunately the use of the term endeavor can be confusing due to its various usages (or non-use) within the game. As such, I may occasionally attempt alternative word choices to delineate different 'kinds' of endeavors assuming my audience could extract my meaning.

I used the term encounter as a generic term for a Captains Books Entry, as that is a long phrase and is tiresome to type out repeatedly. It also strongly resembles the "encounter" system used in Eldritch Horror. A fairly easy to understand and descriptive liberty I stand by using.

You also seem to misinterpret the point of this post.
Spoiler (click to reveal)

The obvious parts of the Rule 13:
1.Take Explore action
2.Select an entry in the back
3.Perform an endeavor
4.Read the appropriate results

No question here.

The NOT obvious parts:
1.We have explicit ruling from JR Honeycutt that Captains Booke endeavors do NOT provide glory. Therefore one would assume the "encounter" endeavor does not yield glory, contrary to what you seem to have assumed.
2. When "Exploring the Sea" it says "You may take an explore action... The defense is the number at the columns end..." yet obviously it requires an explore endeavor.

You, yourself, have told me I need to be more clear with my language. The difficulty lies, however, in the imprecise language used in the source material. Exploring for an island makes NO mention of an "endeavor" yet we so assume. Exploring a tomb uses NEITHER the term "endeavor" nor "action." merely: "You may explore an open tomb site. When you do..." Hardly a definitive rule as it lacks any of the keywords we should look for and expect to be used.

Who is to say that the very act of exploring, in any regard, does not imply an explore endeavor prior to selecting a tomb entry.

You assert you know the answer but fail to answer or understand the primary question. I do not think I can be more clear, nor concise than this:

Is act of exploring a tomb 1 endeavor total or 2?

There is potentially 1 from the explore "action" itself and obviously 1 from the Captains Booke. How do we know it is only 1? If it is only 1, how do we know to take the glory?

Frankly, I still strongly believe this not unlike a complex encounter in Eldritch Horror and requires 2 tests (endeavors) total. I believe it is 1 endeavor to explore the tomb, THEN there is an additional endeavor within the tomb. You gain glory only for the first endeavor.


I apologize for any tone here, but you have been quite curt.

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David desJardins
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iswearihaveajob wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Frankly, I still strongly believe this not unlike a complex encounter in Eldritch Horror and requires 2 tests (endeavors) total. I believe it is 1 endeavor to explore the tomb, THEN there is an additional endeavor within the tomb. You gain glory only for the first endeavor.


Obviously I disagree. So far as I can see, so does everyone else. I don't think your interpretation is reasonable but there's nothing more I can say at this point to persuade you.
 
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gary g
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We play that you get the 1 glory for the initial Explore endeavor.
You don't get the glory for the 'skill check endeavor'
And you then get the flavor text glory if their is any. Seen from usually 1-3 glory.
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Will
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There definitely aren't 2 separate explore endeavors happening.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
If your ship didn't sink after you roll for the tomb exploration check, I would give you a point for a successful endeavor. If it did sink, I would not.
If that's wrong I would be baffled.
 
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David desJardins
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iswearihaveajob wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Exploring for an island makes NO mention of an "endeavor" yet we so assume.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
The rules for "Exploring the Sea" DO mention an endeavor. They state a defense value, they say if you succeed, and then they mention that you gain glory for the endeavor. Could the rules be better written? Sure. But there's no ambiguity about the meaning.
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Frank Pelkofer
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My group just got to this box.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I think it's clear from reading the rules that you don't do an explore endeavor before you open the back of the book. Instead, you go straight to the back of the book and do what the entry says. We are playing that if you succeed at whatever type of endeavor or skill check you get, then you get 1 glory. This may be contrary to what the developer said, but this is how we read the rules.
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Vince Alvarez
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countertorque wrote:
My group just got to this box.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I think it's clear from reading the rules that you don't do an explore endeavor before you open the back of the book. Instead, you go straight to the back of the book and do what the entry says. We are playing that if you succeed at whatever type of endeavor or skill check you get, then you get 1 glory. This may be contrary to what the developer said, but this is how we read the rules.


The developer answered this question in another thread.
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24141910#24141910

It seems that the only glory you gain for exploring a tomb site is the glory that the Captain's Booke instructs you to gain.

I reasoning as I understand it is about the difference between an Explore Action and an Explore Endeavor.
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J Kaemmer
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RobDaviau wrote:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
Rob,
First of all, let me say I'm a huge fan of your work and that we are currently loving the Seafall campaign.

Now onto the question- Rule 13 "Exploring Tombs"

This rule has been somewhat divisive in the forums. People, including myself, cannot clearly decide nor build consensus whether tombs involve a complex 2-part explore action or single endeavor as dictated by the Captains Booke.

Is the proper sequence of events:

1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) roll explore endeavor
4) if you succeed, gain 1 glory and choose an entry in the back
5) perform indicated endeavor (no glory)
6) read appropriate entry and take indicated reward

(Bonus: can research be used on step 4?)

Or is it:

1) select explorers guild
2) choose the explore action
3) choose an entry in the back
4) perform indicated endeavor (no glory?)
5) read appropriate entry and take indicated reward

The debate stems from whether or not the initial explore endeavor is implicit in the Explore Action, and the phrase "You may explore Tombs."

Thank you for you time!


Hey, sorry about the confusion on this one. Adding rules to a book means I only get one tiny little sticker to convey big ideas. Guess I cut too many corners on this one. The answer to your question is the second one. The tomb is already a known location -- can't explore that site again. Instead, tomb sites become gateways to the map at the back of the book. You do get glory for a tomb explore as normal.


So now we know for sure!
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Gerald Butler
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heyvince wrote:
countertorque wrote:
My group just got to this box.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I think it's clear from reading the rules that you don't do an explore endeavor before you open the back of the book. Instead, you go straight to the back of the book and do what the entry says. We are playing that if you succeed at whatever type of endeavor or skill check you get, then you get 1 glory. This may be contrary to what the developer said, but this is how we read the rules.


The developer answered this question in another thread.
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24141910#24141910

It seems that the only glory you gain for exploring a tomb site is the glory that the Captain's Booke instructs you to gain.

I reasoning as I understand it is about the difference between an Explore Action and an Explore Endeavor.


The frustrating thing is that Rob and at least one playtester have responded multiple times but none of their responses have been clearly worded (really the frustrating feature of this game to me--unclear wording in the rules). "You do get glory for a tomb explore as normal." That seems to pretty directly state that you get 1 glory for whatever endeavor is successfully taken, as endeavors normally do, separate from the glory that the Captain's Booke entry rewards. But in that same reply Rob says that the poster's interpretation is correct, which is that you DON'T get glory from both the endeavor and Booke.

It's like someone saying "Can I fly?" and the response being "Yes, you can't fly", which is ambiguous.
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Will
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Lol I was just texting with my group about this. For some reason, Rob and JR write in an abbreviated way that causes confusion, when just a few more choice words would make everything clear as day.
Another example:
Re: Rule 13 and Rule 7 Questions [SPOILERS].
I had to read his response and try to piece together what it actually meant when 1 short sentence would have been so much easier.
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J Kaemmer
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I asked a followup and Rob said you DO get glory from a tomb endeavor.

Correct sequence:
1)select explorers guild
2)choose explore action
3)choose entry from back cover
4)perform indicated endeavor
5)if successful, gain 1 glory and read indicated entry
6)take indicated reward
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Greg Filpus
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That seems to contradict the post JR made in a different thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24141910#24141910

jayahre wrote:
heyvince wrote:
Two Questions about Rule 13

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Exploring a Tomb: Do I gain a glory for successfully exploring a tomb AND and glory for the successfully completing the endeavor that the tomb entry instructs of me? For example. On my turn I hire the Explorer’s Guild and take a sail action to an island with the tomb. My second action is to Explore the tomb. The entry instructs me to attempt a Raid Endeavor, which I pass. Since I passed, the entry instructs me to gain 3 glory. I have now 1) taken a successful explore action, 2) made a successful Raid Endeavor, and 3) Read an entry which instructs me to gain 3 Glory. How much glory do I gain during this turn? 5 for the Explore, Raid, and entry? 4 for the Raid and entry? or Just just 3 for the entry?

Second question: Some of the entries instruct me attempt neither a Raid or Explore, for example a Attempt Sail Endeavor. I know that successfully passing Sail Endeavors during a Dangerous Waters checks does not gain glory. Would making a Sail Endeavor during your Explore a Tomb action gain a Glory?

Gaining 5 Glory for the first example and none for the second makes Tombs seems very swingy.



1 - 1) and 3) happen

2 - no glory for those things
 
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Frank Pelkofer
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GregF wrote:
That seems to contradict the post JR made in a different thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24141910#24141910

jayahre wrote:
heyvince wrote:
Two Questions about Rule 13

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Exploring a Tomb: Do I gain a glory for successfully exploring a tomb AND and glory for the successfully completing the endeavor that the tomb entry instructs of me? For example. On my turn I hire the Explorer’s Guild and take a sail action to an island with the tomb. My second action is to Explore the tomb. The entry instructs me to attempt a Raid Endeavor, which I pass. Since I passed, the entry instructs me to gain 3 glory. I have now 1) taken a successful explore action, 2) made a successful Raid Endeavor, and 3) Read an entry which instructs me to gain 3 Glory. How much glory do I gain during this turn? 5 for the Explore, Raid, and entry? 4 for the Raid and entry? or Just just 3 for the entry?

Second question: Some of the entries instruct me attempt neither a Raid or Explore, for example a Attempt Sail Endeavor. I know that successfully passing Sail Endeavors during a Dangerous Waters checks does not gain glory. Would making a Sail Endeavor during your Explore a Tomb action gain a Glory?

Gaining 5 Glory for the first example and none for the second makes Tombs seems very swingy.



1 - 1) and 3) happen

2 - no glory for those things


Yes, it does contradict. JR's response didn't seem to make sense, since it's pretty clear from the written rules that #1 doesn't happen (you don't do any explore endeavor to start a tomb explore; you just go straight to the back of the booke). So, JR must have meant #2 and #3, which is consistent with everything else we've learned from Daviau.
 
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Becq Starforged
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When you take a (normal) exploration action on an island, you choose a site on the island, then perform an exploration endeavor against the difficulty of that site.

(Box 3 spoilers)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
When you take a exploration action on an island with a tomb, you have additional site choices to choose from. If you choose a non-tomb site, then see above. But if you choose a tomb site, then *instead of the normal exploration endeavor resolution*, you follow the text entry to determine the dice you roll to resolve your (non-standard) exploration endeavor.


Either way, if the endeavor is successful (1+ successes and your ship stays afloat), you score 1 glory for surviving the "exploration" endeavor, then go to the indicated entry to determine what else happens.
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Vince Alvarez
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Becq wrote:
When you take a (normal) exploration action on an island, you choose a site on the island, then perform an exploration endeavor against the difficulty of that site.

(Box 3 spoilers)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
When you take a exploration action on an island with a tomb, you have additional site choices to choose from. If you choose a non-tomb site, then see above. But if you choose a tomb site, then *instead of the normal exploration endeavor resolution*, you follow the text entry to determine the dice you roll to resolve your (non-standard) exploration endeavor.


Either way, if the endeavor is successful (1+ successes and your ship stays afloat), you score 1 glory for surviving the "exploration" endeavor, then go to the indicated entry to determine what else happens.


Except JR seemed to indicate that no glory will be given if the entry instructs you to roll something other than Explore or Raid (Sail for example).
 
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J Kaemmer
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True. JR did say that. But then I got a confirmation from Rob that you DO get glory. I'll take Robs intent for the game as law.
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Becq Starforged
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I believe JR was specifically referring to the add-on "endeavor rolls" that happen during some exploration entries. In those cases you already got a glory for succeeding/surviving the Endeavor; you don't get additional glory for additional rolls that result from it, regardless of what the text calls those rolls ... unless the entry says otherwise, of course.

There are also some additional situations that call for an "endeavor roll" that specifically do not generate glory (Box 1 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
like uncharted waters events.


In the case we are discussing, (Box 3 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the exploration action may call for a roll based on a ship stat other than explore or raid, but it is still used to determine the success/failure of the explore action, and success at the roll still earns you glory as normal.
 
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Frank Pelkofer
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OK, I feel like we are unnecessarily making this more complicated than it needs to be. It's now clear what happens when you raid a tomb. Why is everyone bringing a lot of non-tomb stuff into the discussion?
 
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