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No Retreat! The North African Front» Forums » Variants

Subject: The 88 units for North Africa were........????? rss

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Rob Veenenberg
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There were 15 German; 12 Italian and 61 CW units (total exact 88).

German (15):
5 Light later 21 Pz Div: 3 Recce Bn; 5 Pz Rgt, 104 PzGr Rgt
15 Pz Div: 33 Recce Bn; 8 Pz Rgt, 115 PzGR Rgt
90 Light later Mot ID: 580 Recce Bn; 155, 200 and 361 "Afrika" Pzgr/Mot inf Rgt; attached: SonderVerband 288 "Afrika" PzGr./pioneer Rgt.
164 ID: 125, 382, 433 Gr.Rgt and Fsch.jäger Brigade "Ramcke".

Italian (12):
Ariete, Littorio Pz.Div; Trieste Mech.Div; Folgore Airb.Div; Pistoia and Trento mot ID's; Bologna, Brescia, Giov.Fascisti, Pavia, Sabratha, Savona ID's.

Commonwealth (61)
1, 2, 7, 8, 10 Arm.Divs with: 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 22, 23, 24 Arm.Bde's;
3 Ind, 7 and 22/201 Gds motor Bde's; 4 SA and 6 SA motor Rgt's;
1, 2, 7 and 8 Support Groups

44, 50, 51 and 70 Inf. Divs with:
14, 16, 23, 69, 131, 132, 133, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154 Brit.Inf.Bde's
70th Div left as ONLY formation at start of 1942 North Africa!!!

4, 5, 8, 10th Ind. Divs with: 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 18, 20, 21, 25, 29, 161 Ind Inf Bde's

1 and 2 SA Divs with: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 SA Inf Bde's; 1, 2 SA Recce Bn's

7 (part) and 9 AU Div's with: 18 (7Au), 20, 24, 26 AU Inf Bde's

2 NZ Div with: 4, 5, 6 NZ Inf Bde's;

1 and 32 Army Tank Bde's; 1 FF, Pol. Carp.; 1 Greek Inf Bde.

Round markers for special batalions like German Naval Group "Hecker"; Minefields; Logistical units; German 88mm Flak/PAK units, British 25 pounder gun units, 6 Pdr AT Units, Forts/Pill-boxes, LRDG-units; Stuka's and British ground attack Hurricanes.

So Carl Paradis, why didn't you use this "ideal" game units set???







 
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Carl Paradis
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RVeenenberg wrote:
why didn't you use this "ideal" game units set???

Thanks for the very interesting question.

OK, first: Sorry but I don't see that your suggestion is ideal, and I don't have the time to explain at great length why I used the units the way I did, but I'll try to make my point as concisely as I can (BTW your set has a problem showing the Early Italians: they are not there).

BTW a lot of the units you are listing, like some Allied brigades (Greek, Polish etc...) are included in other units in my OOB. So I consider it as pretty darn complete for the low counter count I am using.

There is one thing I'll discuss: I don't think this is a good idea to show the divisions as separate regiments at this scale. Especially the Panzer divisions: these rarely operated separately, and most of the troops were formed and fought into combined-arms "Kampfgruppes", not as independent regiments: this is one of the major quibble I have with other games on the same topic and scale: showing German units that way is bad history IMHO.

I used 48 units in the game for the North African battle (not the whole 88 counters!), the extra 40 units allowed me to make a "Crete" game.

But if you have the time and inclination, by all means make an alternate OOB available for the game with your "ideal" counters, it would be really fun for some players to try these. You could make them into an article in GMT's C3i Magazine, with the counters. meeple

Again, this game is mainly a division-size game. Not a regiment-size one. Lest we end up with sky-high piles of counters on the map, or long lines of units "WWI-style.": Not my goal! there are tons of other games out there who use that regimental scale, high stacking and humongous long maps already.
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Rob Veenenberg
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Hi Carl,

Yes your games center on divisional units. Note that the Italians in th 88 counter mix are all of divisional size!

Don't feel offended by my proposal. It just seemed too tempting to propose 88 historical units which were in the fight from March 1941 until October 1942 which match perfectly with the counter space you are limited to.

No no huge piles with brigades will ever occur if you limit stacks to 1 division or 3 brigades or 4 regiments each with 1 minor batallion sized unit as in most other games.

And finally: kampfgruppen were mostly formed in the later half of the war. Germans mostly operated with their regimental units: batallions and companies forming up attack groups which assaulted the factories of Stalingrad or were almagated in units to defend sectors of a frontline or performed counter attacks.
 
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Carl Paradis
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RVeenenberg wrote:
Note that the Italians in the 88 counter mix are all of divisional size!


Well, I don't think it's an accurate representation of the Italians. Just one counter for the Ariete tank division while all the Allied units consist of 3 Brigades? Not fair! BTW if all those brigades have two steps, this makes a huge difference in the game and will break the design.

I don't know if you have realized this, but your OOB is extremely similar to that of the first ever wargame on that topic, made in the early 60's!

Afrika Korps





Alternate, more recent, countersheet:



RVeenenberg wrote:

No no huge piles with brigades will ever occur if you limit stacks to 1 division or 3 brigades or 4 regiments each with 1 minor batallion sized unit as in most other games.


Ok and how much units per hex does this make? I count up to four, minimum. Plus you have to add in fortifications, and other info markers etc...
For me a huge pile is anything more than 2 or occasionally three units.

In my games the basic stacking is two units per hex.

What you propose is not nearly enough stacking per hex at the scale the game is made. You need smaller hexes, or the historical unit density will not work properly.

RVeenenberg wrote:

And finally: kampfgruppen were mostly formed in the later half of the war. Germans mostly operated with their regimental units: batallions and companies forming up attack groups which assaulted the factories of Stalingrad or were almagated in units to defend sectors of a frontline or performed counter attacks.


Really? So you mean a Panzer regiment operated all alone and the Motorized regiment too? So no Panzers and infantry cooperation? Or if there indeed WAS cooperation at the scale of the game I made, well then, you put them in the same counter, not on separate regimental counters that can run around the map in completely opposite directions! While units operated mostly at divisional scale (and I do have some exception sin my games when necessary, but only when really necessary). And for what game purpose exactly? Why more counters: it is not needed IMHO.

What you propose is not a "No Retreat!" game, it's another game altogether. I encourage you to design it, this is how I started designing games: wanting to do my own thing! Just don't waste your time proposing me to radically change my own game designs, please, I am really not interested. What I am interested in is to get out the best game possible with the less possible counters and hassle, while staying realistic: and believe me that is way more difficult to do than just shower a map with tons of units just for the sake of OOB fans.

Again, IMHO the lesser the moving parts the better!

My own gaming theory is to try to limit the number of maneuver units, or group of units a player has to manage, to what is done is real-life. Why do you think a squad commander does not usually command more than a dozen men? I find chess to be quite a good example: 16 chess pieces per player.

Yep, you've guessed it: I am generally NOT fond of "monster games". Again I prefer less units on the map, and put that "saved" complexity elsewhere.

And this is the end of my argument.

Thanks again for asking that question, and for taking interest in my little games, it's very appreciated. meeple
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alessandro pellegrini
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No Retreat 6 Tunisia?
Carl hallo and congratulation for your series NO RETREAT that drives me crazy .
You will see one day No Retreat 6 Tunisia Front covering the Torch operation and the fall of Tunisi? Thanks
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Carl Paradis
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1970aless wrote:
Carl hallo and congratulation for your series NO RETREAT that drives me crazy .
You will see one day No Retreat 6 Tunisia Front covering the Torch operation and the fall of Tunisi? Thanks


Hello Alessandro! I doubt that the Tunisian campaign will ever see the light of the day as a GMT product. sorry.

Bu who knows... NR6, if it happens, will probab;y be abput the Korean war.

Conversely, the Tunisian campaign was supposed to be part of the original game, but I did not have enough map space to make it work. So instead I added in the Air Assault on Crete as a separate small game. Hopefully you like that choice too.
 
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Charles Finch
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wouldn't Tunisa be more Full Retreat 1: Torch ?
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alessandro pellegrini
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Hello Carl and sin, it would be fun to have Patton, Rommel and Monty on the same table under you direction . Thanks anyway for the answer and for the hours of fun you up with your own series No Retreat
 
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Carl Paradis
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cfinchjr2 wrote:
wouldn't Tunisa be more Full Retreat 1: Torch ?


I guess so, but the problem would be that GMT publication chances for this title would be near zero... And there is not enough interesting material in this to warrant a stand-alone game IMHO.
 
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Carl Paradis
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1970aless wrote:
Hello Carl and sin, it would be fun to have Patton, Rommel and Monty on the same table under you direction . Thanks anyway for the answer and for the hours of fun you up with your own series No Retreat


Thanks! Sorry I was not able to fit Tunisia in the NR2 package.
 
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Charles Finch
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Hi Carl
Was just joking on the title Full vs No Retreat

In the same vein, It could be a dice game - roll one die on a 2-5 french surrender. Turn 2 roll a die, ...

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Carl Paradis
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Algernon Disraeli wrote:
LOL on the "Full Retreat: Torch", Charles, LOL! Well-played!cool

cfinchjr2 wrote:


In the same vein, It could be a dice game - roll one die on a 2-5 french surrender. Turn 2 roll a die, ...



I smell a series. Spanning eleven hundred years...ninja
Plus, it would have minimal counter density, kind of like craps...

Seriously, though, good design choice to go with Crete in lieu of Tunisia. This game intrigues me because it is unique in several major aspects. Hope to get it soon and make it my intro to the No Retreat! series. (And I'm a monster-lover,BTW!) Cheers, All.


You should try with the first game of the series,just-reprinted:

No Retreat! The Russian Front

Or buy them both!
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Carl Paradis
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Oh no, I don't embrace complexity! I aim for as simple as possible while keeping the games historical.

Say, in what part of Canada do you live in?

BTW, if you have read the booklets of my games you'll know that the No Retreat series as atribute to the Avallon Hill "classica". meeple
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