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Subject: Help needed with reducing total card counts! rss

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Jooles D
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So after learning the basics we're now just getting going with deck-building. We figure out our strategy, select the cards we want and, well, are ending up with decks in the 90-100 card range. My last runner deck I managed to get down to a slim 68, which felt quite an achievement!

Is this a common beginner problem? Do you just have to go through working with larger decks to learn how best to eliminate redundancy? Or can larger decks actually be successful? Any advice on how to trim things down?

In case it helps here's my 68 card deck, but it's more general advice we need as every deck is way above thee 40-45 card minimums that people tend to work towards. The idea, untested so far, is to come out fast and try and rush HQ.

Andromeda (Humanity's Shadow)

Event (21)
2x Account Siphon (Core Set)
2x Emergency Shutdown (Cyber Exodus)
2x Forged Activation Orders (Core Set)
3x Inside Job (Core Set)
3x Legwork (Honor and Profit)
1x Lucky Find (Double Time) ••
2x Mass Install (Honor and Profit)
2x Running Interference (Mala Tempora)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
1x Tinkering (Core Set) ••••

Hardware (8)
3x Dyson Mem Chip (Trace Amount)
3x HQ Interface (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Logos (Honor and Profit)

Resource (15)
3x Armitage Codebusting (Core Set)
2x Bank Job (Core Set)
1x Crash Space (Core Set)
3x Daily Casts (Creation and Control)
2x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Public Sympathy (Cyber Exodus)
2x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)

Icebreaker (16)
2x Gingerbread (Honor and Profit)
1x Yog.0 (Core Set) • ☆
3x Faerie (Future Proof)
1x Passport (Honor and Profit)
1x Crypsis (Core Set)
1x Leviathan (Second Thoughts)
2x Aurora (Core Set)
2x Breach (Honor and Profit)
1x Alias (Honor and Profit)
2x Femme Fatale (Core Set)

Program (8)
1x Paintbrush (Double Time) ••••
1x Pheromones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Grappling Hook (Honor and Profit)
2x Sneakdoor Beta (Core Set)
1x Djinn (Core Set) ••
1x Snitch (Cyber Exodus)

68 cards (minimum 45)
13/14 (=15-1☆) influence used
 
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Mus Rattus
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Look for redundancies. Look at decklists online, at places like netrunnerdb.

As for your list, let's see.

Events look pretty good.
Mass Install is not generally a useful card.
Running Interference I find works well for me as a one-of.
Are you sure you need Lucky Find and Tinkering, given all the other economy options you have? Taking them out would free a good deal of influence.

What's the plan with Dyson Mem-Chips?
I don't think you need 3x HQ Interface in addition to 3x Legwork.

Resources look pretty good, but I'm not sure about the Public Sympathies. Generally, there are better options for avoiding flat-lines.

And it's with your programs that I see the biggest problem.
I would definitely suggest you look at other criminal decks and see what programs they use.
Generally, you want one of each type of breaker. That is, one fracter, one decoder, one killer. Since you're playing criminal, you can also play Special Order and run even fewer copies of your programs.
Then a few utility programs, and maybe an AI.

Here's some preliminary cuts I would make. It might leave you too dependent on the H&P central breakers, and there are probably some better ways to fill the holes left.

Icebreaker (16)
2x Gingerbread (Honor and Profit)
1x Yog.0 (Core Set) • ☆
3x Faerie (Future Proof)
1x Passport (Honor and Profit)
1x Crypsis (Core Set)
1x Leviathan (Second Thoughts)

2x Aurora (Core Set)
2x Breach (Honor and Profit)
1x Alias (Honor and Profit)
2x Femme Fatale (Core Set)

Program (8)
1x Paintbrush (Double Time) ••••
1x Pheromones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Grappling Hook (Honor and Profit)
2x Sneakdoor Beta (Core Set)
1x Djinn (Core Set) ••
1x Snitch (Cyber Exodus)


You have to remind yourself, the goal of the game is not to build up a set of cards that can take on any challenge and break into any server while keeping you completely safe and flush with credits.
The goal of the game is to score 7 points, as fast as you can.
You need to develop a plan, "How is my deck going to score 7 points?". Include cards in your deck if they help that plan.

EDIT:
Actually, let's go over your whole list.

Andromeda (Humanity's Shadow)

Event (19)
2x Account Siphon (Core Set)
2x Emergency Shutdown (Cyber Exodus)
2x Forged Activation Orders (Core Set)
3x Inside Job (Core Set)
3x Legwork (Honor and Profit)
1x Running Interference (Mala Tempora)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Special Order (Core Set)

Hardware (3)
1x HQ Interface (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Box - E

Resource (12)
3x Armitage Codebusting (Core Set)
2x Bank Job (Core Set)
3x Daily Casts (Creation and Control)
2x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)

Icebreaker (9)
1x Yog.0 (Core Set) • ☆
3x Faerie (Future Proof)
1x Passport (Honor and Profit)
2x Breach (Honor and Profit)
1x Alias (Honor and Profit)
2x Femme Fatale (Core Set)

Program (4)
1x Pheromones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Sneakdoor Beta (Core Set)
1x Snitch (Cyber Exodus)

47 cards (minimum 45)
0/14 (=15-1☆) influence used
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Brendan Riley
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The other way to think about paring down your deck is to consider how many cards you draw in a game. If you bring 45 cards, you probably draw approx 30 at the most. Some decks are made to go faster, some slower, but that's a fair bet for a longer game.

The question the other poster asked about how you're going to win becomes more important. If you're really hoping to get your console, well, your odds get much better with a small deck.

On the corp side, be sure that the corp deck is keeping the proper distribution of agendas. And remember that the more agendas in the deck, the more likely you'll get a bad draw and have three, four, five agendas in a row. This kind of "agenda flood" really stinks!

I had the same experience you did, certainly. One thing I do is watch for any cards I'm discarding without using them. If I'm discarding it and I don't mind, I probably didn't need it anyway.
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Jooles D
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Thanks guys, appreciate the time taken to give feedback.

I agree with all your points but I can't help feel that much of this awareness comes with experience and in hindsight. As you say, it seems when starting out you kind have to play larger decks to see what's needed or not to eliminate redundancies. I imagine over time using a lean deck is where I'll settle but for now I'm going to have to plug away and see what problems I encounter.

I guess the key thing is gauging probabilities. That the larger the deck the less the probability is of getting that key card or killer combo.

I'll try playing the original deck posted here and then again against the same corp deck with a slimmed down one to see the difference...
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Mus Rattus
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I think one area where experience will really help is in evaluating cards.
Once you've played more games you can more easily look at a card and say, "That doesn't look like it would be very useful", or "There are definitely situations when I would want to have that card."

Another thing is, when you're starting out, you have all these cards you've never played with before and you want to try them out. You'll build better decks if you try to play them in smaller groups rather than putting every card you want to try in the same deck.

It's not just about combos or key cards (though that is a factor). Just imagine a deck of cards. Then imagine if you could take out the single worst card in that deck. The deck would, on average be better. That's why you try to stick the minimum. Of course, cards aren't really better or worse than each other in an objective sense, so the decision-making is never easy.
 
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Joshua Imobersteg
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Jooles wrote:
So after learning the basics we're now just getting going with deck-building. We figure out our strategy, select the cards we want and, well, are ending up with decks in the 90-100 card range. My last runner deck I managed to get down to a slim 68, which felt quite an achievement!

Is this a common beginner problem? Do you just have to go through working with larger decks to learn how best to eliminate redundancy? Or can larger decks actually be successful? Any advice on how to trim things down?

In case it helps here's my 68 card deck, but it's more general advice we need as every deck is way above thee 40-45 card minimums that people tend to work towards. The idea, untested so far, is to come out fast and try and rush HQ.


Hey! I also struggled to get down to the normal deck size at first and I'd say it is a beginner problem. I think a big part is focusing on a strategy to win and realize that for some matchups you have to cut your losses and ignore some of the rarer edge-case scenarios.

Let's look at your deck. Andy is great as she can take 20% of her deck in her opening hand and have a massive tempo advantage out the gate. To best utilize her advantage, you really want a 45 card deck. You also want to have plenty of money and be able to play 4 cards the first turn and hit the ground running!

Quote:

Andromeda (Humanity's Shadow)

Event (21)
2x Account Siphon (Core Set)
2x Emergency Shutdown (Cyber Exodus)
2x Forged Activation Orders (Core Set)


Siphon is a great way gain a 15 credit advantage and keep the corp on their back foot. Usually you will want to run either 0 or 3 of these (2 if you take it out-of-faction).

Emergency Shutdown is not that great in the current meta. Most ice rez costs are less 4 or less credits so this doesn't have the impact it used to have (though hitting a Tollbooth or DNA Tracker with it is fun). This card is best out of Leela who loves having unrezzed stuff around.

Forged Activation Orders is also not that great, but can be useful for you to find out what the corp has covering HQ so you can find out which breaker to Tutor. I usually cut this for better cards.

Inside Job is great, but I'd only run one to two of these. In the late game your breakers should be setup and you don't have to worry about this as much.

Legwork is also a great card, but you only need 1 or 2 copies. Usually you won't be digging around in HQ all that often except to Siphon so you really only will play this maybe once a game when you think the corp is stacking up agendas in HQ.

Lucky Find is a good card, but Criminals easily get money from other sources. You don't need this. Bank Job, Daily Casts, Dirty Laundry, Sure Gamble, Temujin Contract, and Career Fair are probably the best and only econ that you'll need in a game.


Mass Install is a waste of space unless you want to reset Viruses, Femme, or the Dogs. This is probably best out of Noise, but even there it's not used much.

Running Interference is a subpar card. I've seen it used well in some decks, but you have to build around it.

Sure Gamble is amazing. You don't need it in a deck all of the time, but this is usually an auto-include.

Tinkering is pretty bad (even in Shaper). Just run Special Order and install your real breakers.


Quote:

Hardware (8)
3x Dyson Mem Chip (Trace Amount)
3x HQ Interface (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Logos (Honor and Profit)


Dyson Mem Chip is mediocre. You aren't really doing anything crazy with Link or Memory so might as well cut it from the deck.

HQ Interface is okay, but 1 to 2 Legworks is enough. HQ Interface is primarily used with Gang Sign in Leela.

Logos is a solid console. However, you already draw an extra 4 cards and you can quickly get setup so you don't really need the tutor. Desperado or Doppleganger is probably better here than Logos.

Quote:

Resource (15)
3x Armitage Codebusting (Core Set)
2x Bank Job (Core Set)
1x Crash Space (Core Set)
3x Daily Casts (Creation and Control)
2x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Public Sympathy (Cyber Exodus)
2x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)


Armitage is solid, but you have even better options with Bank Job and Temujin Contract. Before Temujin Contract came out this card was a criminal staple, but probably can be cut these days.

Bank Job is great. Love it.

Crash Space is okay. However most corps that kill you these days will hit you for 7 to 14 damage in one go so probably not the best. I'd go with Plascrete (and maybe NACH) to prevent death.

Daily Casts is great! Pairs even better with Career Fair.

Kati Jones is great! Might even be able to go down to 1 copy.

Public Sympathy isn't that great. Can help avoid death via Boom! but I'd save this for other runners.

Same Old Thing is great to recur your amazing events (primarily Siphon).

Quote:

Icebreaker (16)
2x Gingerbread (Honor and Profit)
1x Yog.0 (Core Set) • ☆
3x Faerie (Future Proof)
1x Passport (Honor and Profit)
1x Crypsis (Core Set)
1x Leviathan (Second Thoughts)
2x Aurora (Core Set)
2x Breach (Honor and Profit)
1x Alias (Honor and Profit)
2x Femme Fatale (Core Set)


Gingerbread is garbage outside of Panchatantra decks.

Yog.0 is great, but you'll want datasuckers and/or NRE to back it up.

Faeries is amazing. If you have Mongoose as well you can probably go down to 2 copies.

Passport is decent, having a remote breaker like Zu.13 or Gordian Blade can help as well.

Crypsis is garbage these days.

Leviathan is bad (I mean, almost all Crim decoders are bad). I would look out of faction for a decoder.

Aurora is awful, definitely look out of faction for better support.

Alias is okay for centrals.

Femme is pretty good overall!

Quote:

Program (8)
1x Paintbrush (Double Time) ••••
1x Pheromones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Grappling Hook (Honor and Profit)
2x Sneakdoor Beta (Core Set)
1x Djinn (Core Set) ••
1x Snitch (Cyber Exodus)


Paintbrush is bad outside of Surfer decks. Probably would drop this.

Pheromones needs to be built around (there are some great Gabe decks with Pheromones in it) so I'd probably cut it.

Grappling Hook is okay, but unsure what bonus you get that a regular breaker wouldn't give you.

Sneakdoor is always great!

Djinn is pretty bad here. You have no viruses besides Pheromones so I wouldn't use it at all.

Snitch isn't great unless you are going all-in on the Aur Revior! strategy.
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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As a rule of thumb - create the deck in netrunnerdb and then use the "draw" function and draw yourself your starting hand 10 times. If most of the times you're unhappy with the starting hand, your deck is bad and you should tweak it. So start with it - the idea of what is your ideal opening hand? Then, what is your ideal midgame state? Try to work towards that goal as quickly as possible.
 
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