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So the recent update of news from Tristan -October Halloween 2016 update.

Firstly let's get out the way the brouhaha about some of the art being changed. I ask these questions which I answered a resounding "no"

*Will it change game play?
*Does it take away that there is 250+ unique individual art pieces?
*Will this change Tristan's enthusiasm for the game or my enthusiasm?
*Is it the most terrible thing to happen?
*Will this stop me from backing the GOK expansion?

I have read back and forth on here and on Kickstarter and everyone has different opinions. Though I do think it is unfair when I read on a post that won't respect Tristan anymore if he doesn't change it back to the original. That they feel Tristan has been sneaky and gone behind their backs shake
I think Tristan has been transparent and honest with his updates and I think possibly this time to his detriment.

I just think that we will have to trust that he and Ania have made the right decision, they both have a passion for the game and am sure that what they have done will be just fine.

So step back and look at the bigger picture here. This was an update which Tristan wanted to share that "The files have been submitted to print" That is a huge step, Ania has completed the amazing art and it is being handed over and a prototype will be sent. This am sure for him is an exciting step that has been overlooked.

Also the rulebook finalisation, have to say looks fab. I have looked over it, just one thing I did note Tristan that on page 14 it still has "By placing an enemy token on a stranger, this encounter is
now considered to be of type “Enemy” to this hero until it" and then it just stops and doesn't finish.

I am looking forward to the unboxing of the prototype.
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Jason Brown
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I backed Tristan as much or more than I backed Gloom of Kilforth, so I trust in his vision for the game.
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I agree his enthusiasm and excitement in the run through on youtube about his game was infectious, and have to support fellow northerners too
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I have to agree on this point as well. Two things got me to request a late pledge for Kilforth from Tristan even before I knew he was doing late pledges: the art work and style of the game, and what I saw of Tristan himself. I knew this was going to be a great game because of how much he loved it. And if any one thinks he has not been up front and honest they have not bee paying attention. I wish I would have know about Kickstarter when he was running this so I could be a part of the comment section today..that's right, almost a year after the project and there is a ton of activity in the comments section. And Tristan is right in the middle of it. I have never seen any other project I have been a part of have this kind of communication.

For me personally I am glad they went back and changed a few of the art pieces. For one it makes it feel a little more real. I mean come on, why would a women warrior dress in next to nothing? But more important than that to me, I have a young son and as he grows up I am doing my best to teach him to respect women for who they are and not how they look. I like knowing that I will not need to go and "doctor" the cards so I can play it in front of him (best way to teach them is to model it after all). Any one can say what they want, but it does make a difference in a young boy and in young men.
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
I backed Tristan as much or more than I backed Gloom of Kilforth, so I trust in his vision for the game.


This!
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DragonFly90 wrote:
So the recent update of news from Tristan -October Halloween 2016 update.

Firstly let's get out the way the brouhaha about some of the art being changed. I ask these questions which I answered a resounding "no"

*Will it change game play?
*Does it take away that there is 250+ unique individual art pieces?
*Will this change Tristan's enthusiasm for the game or my enthusiasm?
*Is it the most terrible thing to happen?
*Will this stop me from backing the GOK expansion?

I have read back and forth on here and on Kickstarter and everyone has different opinions. Though I do think it is unfair when I read on a post that won't respect Tristan anymore if he doesn't change it back to the original. That they feel Tristan has been sneaky and gone behind their backs shake
I think Tristan has been transparent and honest with his updates and I think possibly this time to his detriment.

I just think that we will have to trust that he and Ania have made the right decision, they both have a passion for the game and am sure that what they have done will be just fine.

So step back and look at the bigger picture here. This was an update which Tristan wanted to share that "The files have been submitted to print" That is a huge step, Ania has completed the amazing art and it is being handed over and a prototype will be sent. This am sure for him is an exciting step that has been overlooked.

Also the rulebook finalisation, have to say looks fab. I have looked over it, just one thing I did note Tristan that on page 14 it still has "By placing an enemy token on a stranger, this encounter is
now considered to be of type “Enemy” to this hero until it" and then it just stops and doesn't finish.

I am looking forward to the unboxing of the prototype.


Doubt I'm welcomed in this forum considering this is a bit of a critique against my stance. But then again, let's not beat around the bush, I'm one of the reasons this forum exists, and so are the other kickstarter backers who disagree with Tristan, and so are those who agree with Tristan. Plus I don't think my stance on respect for Tristan is accurately represented here. Mine as well as respond, though I promise I won't be as aggressive in this forum as I have been in the other one. I've pretty much said my piece there.

In regards to what my answers would be to those questions, no it doesn't change the gameplay. No it doesn't take away that there are 250+ unique individual pieces of art, all of which are beautiful I might add, though the changes extend beyond just that one card that we know of. But my enthusiasm has dwindled just a tad. It's not the most terrible thing to happen, not by a long shot, but it is unfortunate at the very least. As to whether this would stop me from backing the expansion, I think that depends on what happens as a result of Tristan learning of the disagreements many of us have about this decision of his, a decision that is clearly influenced by a few on boardgamegeek.

But where were questions like that earlier for those who disagreed with the initial work of art? Why not ask them if having a work of art like that in the game changes gameplay, or takes away from the other cards, or change the enthusiasm of Tristan and others, or if it would stop them from backing a future expansion? Most important of all, why would the art like that be the most terrible thing to happen?

For the record, I said I would lose respect for Tristan. That doesn't mean I won't have any respect for him. I can respect a guy who is passionate about his project enough to work on it for 8 years before being satisfied enough with the gameplay to bring it out into the world (that is the primary reason I backed the project in the first place, moreso than because of the art or the gameplay; it's refreshing to see a game like this created out of a labor of love). I can respect a guy who hires such a talented artist to create such art for the cards (among other components). I can respect that he gave daily updates during the campaign, and monthly updates after that. And I can definitely respect him if the game is fully developed, shipped out, and received by the backers.

But I won't respect the decision to cave into the demands of a few people who complain about something that petty, who have no good argument to back up why they would find that offensive. I won't respect the decision not to bring that whole process up in a much earlier kickstarter update. I won't respect that he chose not to include kickstarter backers on this decision-making process. While his intentions may have been good, while he may have been transparent and honest, I don't believe he had been as transparent as he should've been earlier on.

There is nothing to trust about it. Either one believes he and Ania made the right decision, or one does not. If one does not believe he and Ania made the right decision, should they not voice their opinion?

In regards to that bigger picture, I was initially filled with joy, learning that the files had been sent for checking and possibly printing. But then it was filled with shock learning about the censorship, as he originally called it. Then it was filled with anger, that it was only then that he would notify me and the other backers about that. Notified us then, when our input would likely be too late in regards to that matter. How could it not anger us, when kickstarter is the platform that made his project possible?

I don't believe Tristan is a sneaky individual who has gone behind our backs. But that's how he comes off when he makes decisions like that, however well-intentioned they may be. A well-intentioned decision can still be an unwise one.

I'm looking forward to the next update more than I am the game at this point.
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I agree with Serious Gamer.

Myself, I would be interested in a refund if possible. I've seen enough artists/designers change their original vision based on the voices of a few and I'm tired of seeing it happen. I've decided to no longer support them if their going to allow it to happen instead of taking a stand and saying "No."

Thanks!
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Elliot contact Tristan directly I am sure he will be able to sort something out and if not let me know and maybe I can buy your pledge from you if we can sort something out prior to shipping.
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eharding wrote:
I agree with Serious Gamer.

Myself, I would be interested in a refund if possible. I've seen enough artists/designers change their original vision based on the voices of a few and I'm tired of seeing it happen. I've decided to no longer support them if their going to allow it to happen instead of taking a stand and saying "No."

Thanks!


Dude, at least wait and see what he does in response to all this feedback. He might change his mind.
 
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gexthegecko wrote:
eharding wrote:
I agree with Serious Gamer.

Myself, I would be interested in a refund if possible. I've seen enough artists/designers change their original vision based on the voices of a few and I'm tired of seeing it happen. I've decided to no longer support them if their going to allow it to happen instead of taking a stand and saying "No."

Thanks!


Dude, at least wait and see what he does in response to all this feedback. He might change his mind.


Is that really going to help though? Most of the people angry about the "censorship" seem to be equally angry at the idea of a creator backing in to the demands of a vocal minority. And none of them appear to be acknowledging the much repeated fact that the "censorship" decision took place before the project launched.

Or is this just the all-too-familiar phenomenon of Kickstarter backers feeling entitled to make continuous demands on the project creator using their pledge as leverage?
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schkff wrote:

Is that really going to help though? Most of the people angry about the "censorship" seem to be equally angry at the idea of a creator backing in to the demands of a vocal minority. And none of them appear to be acknowledging the much repeated fact that the "censorship" decision took place before the project launched.

Or is this just the all-too-familiar phenomenon of Kickstarter backers feeling entitled to make continuous demands on the project creator using their pledge as leverage?


I'd respond in-depth to this, but I promised not to be too aggressive on this thread. If you want to continue this conversation with me in particular, take it to the october update thread.
 
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I was thinking about buying this when it came out. Not now.
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gexthegecko wrote:
schkff wrote:

Is that really going to help though? Most of the people angry about the "censorship" seem to be equally angry at the idea of a creator backing in to the demands of a vocal minority. And none of them appear to be acknowledging the much repeated fact that the "censorship" decision took place before the project launched.

Or is this just the all-too-familiar phenomenon of Kickstarter backers feeling entitled to make continuous demands on the project creator using their pledge as leverage?


I'd respond in-depth to this, but I promised not to be too aggressive on this thread. If you want to continue this conversation with me in particular, take it to the october update thread.


Very gracious of you. As I'm not interested in posting and cross-posting the same points over and over in multiple threads, I guess I'll have to live without knowing what you have to say on the matter. But thanks for the invitation.
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DragonFly90 wrote:
So the recent update of news from Tristan -October Halloween 2016 update.

[...]

This was an update which Tristan wanted to share that "The files have been submitted to print" That is a huge step, Ania has completed the amazing art and it is being handed over and a prototype will be sent. This am sure for him is an exciting step that has been overlooked.

Also the rulebook finalisation, have to say looks fab.

[...]

I am looking forward to the unboxing of the prototype.


Those are the most and only important facts about that update for me.

All good news in it, as far as I'm concerned.

The game is as great as ever, and coming nearer.
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eharding wrote:
I agree with Serious Gamer.

I've seen enough artists/designers change their original vision based on the voices of a few and I'm tired of seeing it happen."


Ironically, that's exactly what gex appears to be calling for! As has been established several times now, Tristan and Ania decided to change the art from a preview pic which was posted on Tristan's blog before the KS launched. Many presumptions have been made that Tristan has been coerced into making the change rather than he might have decided he wanted to do that anyway for his own personal satisfaction. Now, it's the vocal few who are clamouring for it to be changed (back) and threatening to demand refunds etc. Pots and kettles.
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Adrian_vN wrote:
eharding wrote:
I agree with Serious Gamer.

I've seen enough artists/designers change their original vision based on the voices of a few and I'm tired of seeing it happen."


Ironically, that's exactly what gex appears to be calling for! As has been established several times now, Tristan and Ania decided to change the art from a preview pic which was posted on Tristan's blog before the KS launched. Many presumptions have been made that Tristan has been coerced into making the change rather than he might have decided he wanted to do that anyway for his own personal satisfaction. Now, it's the vocal few who are clamouring for it to be changed (back) and threatening to demand refunds etc. Pots and kettles.


Technically, it was changed a few days into the kickstarter campaign.
 
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gexthegecko wrote:
Adrian_vN wrote:
eharding wrote:
I agree with Serious Gamer.

I've seen enough artists/designers change their original vision based on the voices of a few and I'm tired of seeing it happen."


Ironically, that's exactly what gex appears to be calling for! As has been established several times now, Tristan and Ania decided to change the art from a preview pic which was posted on Tristan's blog before the KS launched. Many presumptions have been made that Tristan has been coerced into making the change rather than he might have decided he wanted to do that anyway for his own personal satisfaction. Now, it's the vocal few who are clamouring for it to be changed (back) and threatening to demand refunds etc. Pots and kettles.


Technically, it was changed a few days into the kickstarter campaign.


The blog post with the revised warrior art was posted on Ninjadorgs blog on 15 July 2015. His post in the GoK forums linking to his blog was also posted on 15 July 2015.

The Kickstarter itself didn't go live until 28 August 2015.

Unless I've completely missed what your complaint is about, you are factually incorrect about the art being changed a few days into the kickstarter campaign.
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Jokemeister wrote:
gexthegecko wrote:
Technically, it was changed a few days into the kickstarter campaign.


The blog post with the revised warrior art was posted on Ninjadorgs blog on 15 July 2015. His post in the GoK forums linking to his blog was also posted on 15 July 2015.

The Kickstarter itself didn't go live until 28 August 2015.

Unless I've completely missed what your complaint is about, you are factually incorrect about the art being changed a few days into the kickstarter campaign.


You did miss something. This thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1401744/final-pre-kick-star...

The blog was made July 15, 2015, but that date doesn't show when/if he made any updates to the blog post. That thread makes for an accurate timeline. Thread was created on the same day he created the blog. On that same day, in that thread, BGG user ThroughTheDeckGlass complained about the card. On that same day, Tristan made the poll. Go to page 5, and ninjadorg (Tristan Hall) is shown to have posted a comment on September 1, 2015 that the art is updated. Both posts have a link on them, and both links are the exact same url to the exact same blog post. That is how I've determined the timeline.
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gexthegecko wrote:
Jokemeister wrote:
gexthegecko wrote:
Technically, it was changed a few days into the kickstarter campaign.


The blog post with the revised warrior art was posted on Ninjadorgs blog on 15 July 2015. His post in the GoK forums linking to his blog was also posted on 15 July 2015.

The Kickstarter itself didn't go live until 28 August 2015.

Unless I've completely missed what your complaint is about, you are factually incorrect about the art being changed a few days into the kickstarter campaign.


You did miss something. This thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1401744/final-pre-kick-star...

The blog was made July 15, 2015, but that date doesn't show when/if he made any updates to the blog post. That thread makes for an accurate timeline. Thread was created on the same day he created the blog. On that same day, in that thread, BGG user ThroughTheDeckGlass complained about the card. On that same day, Tristan made the poll. Go to page 5, and ninjadorg (Tristan Hall) is shown to have posted a comment on September 1, 2015 that the art is updated. Both posts have a link on them, and both links are the exact same url to the exact same blog post. That is how I've determined the timeline.


Superb. Please tell me your contribution in the last few days has been an avant-garde work of performance art. If so - bravo, I applaud the way you have subverted conventional and normative expectations about rational discourse. Here with this post even the reassuring framework of time seems unreliable. The deep question your work has raised for us all is, were we viewers, or participants, or both?
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Thanks so much for this post, Claire, reading it was like having my HP and AP restored to max! And thanks for all the supportive comments too guys, I really do appreciate it, especially when we're coming so close to the end of the journey now.

I'll do a cross post of my response from the other thread here for context:


ninjadorg wrote:
Hi guys, sorry it's taken so long to get around to typing this up, I've been crazy busy (trying to get my first game finalised amongst other things! ) and realised I'd need a proper sit down to respond effectively. First thing's first: I will not be changing the art now that we've submitted the files to print.


I'd like to thank everyone who has commented on the topic on the forums and privately, whatever your viewpoint happens to be - I read everything I can about my game, and I often try to pay attention to the things people say about me as a person and designer too. With that in mind I commend the passion of those who've vociferously championed going back to an earlier iteration of a piece of art in the game which they preferred, hats off also to those who vocalised their preference for the more family friendly version, and well done to everyone for trying to keep the whole discussion as civil as possible. I've received a tonne of eloquent and interesting personal emails on the topic too, especially from those who'd rather not engage in this sort of discussion in a public forum.


A lot of points (autocorrect says pints - you know when you sometimes want to keep a typo in??) have been raised and I can't respond to everything so I'll just cover a few key elements of my own and that will be the last of it from me on this, simply because getting caught up on topics like this derails the actual total awesomeness of where we are at now, and exactly how game-changing Gloom of Kilforth is going to be when it arrives on your doorstep. So here we go...


There has been enough interest in the original piece of art that we can potentially include it (and other similar images) in the Touch of Death GoK expansion Kickstarter as alternate promo cards next year. My vision for Gloom of Kilforth has always been inspired by classic fantasy, Tolkien, Brooks, Weiss and Hickman, even Shakespeare, and occasionally we've had darker elements sneak into the design, flavour and art, but in my head it has always been a PG rating. So we've often revisited those elements and brought them more in line with my own ideas of what is right for THIS project. There is a time and place for adult orientated imagery, dark horror and all that other stuff, and I actually have no problem with that at all (just wait for Sublime Darkness) but this project isn't it.


One of the misunderstandings about my process has been that one or two of you think I have been underhanded or sneaky by not telling you of decisions I've made about changing this piece of art for the female warrior until after the fact, or that I've not brought enough attention to this change, or that I should consult with all of my backers about this change first... Well if that's the case, oh my goodness you guys have NO idea how much I've held back from you - I’m like a Level 20 Rogue in terms of sneakiness if that’s how we’re measuring it!


The amount of insightful feedback I've had from hundreds of players over the years, and the brilliant feedback you all gave me during and often since the campaign has been absolutely incredible.


But, the number of decisions I have had to just blaze ahead with and make about this project without your input is INSANE. Flavour, balancing, world building, art commissioning, new mechanics, rules, layout, design, consistency, typography, music, art manipulation, even choosing which cards to include that you unlocked as stretch goals - some of you may even remember that my immediately previous update was indeed a paean to the freedom that you had granted me to be creative on my own terms, and how grateful I was (and very much still am) for that.


To those who suggest that my decision was only informed by a single tongue in cheek poll I ran on boardgamegeek you need to think much more broadly: I have discussions daily with loads of different people about Gloom of Kilforth: family, friends, gamers, colleagues, backers, fellow geeks… All of whom I have the utmost respect for. And everything I learn informs my decisions. Even if the poll had zero people say they didn't like the original piece, the countless other conversations I've had about the game and its art style would still have informed my decision.


I’m extremely lucky to have an artist who often presents me with 3 or 4 different versions of each image she develops. Sometimes it’s alternate colour hues, shading, saturation, clothing, weapons, hair colour, it can be a huge number of things. Often I’ll make suggestions and tweaks of my own. Can you even begin to imagine how long a project like this would take to bring to fruition if I had to ask you guys for approval for every single card?? It just would not be feasible. When you backed this game, like it or lump it you backed me and the artistic decisions I’ve made and that I’m making.


Guys, Gloom of Kilforth is going to be amazing. The game is great, the art is gorgeous and myriad, the music is beautiful, the value for money you’re getting is bonkers, and the next Kickstarter is going to be epic too. Everyone who’s seen the prototype is looking at it with bug eyes, like ‘are you kidding me? This is awesome!!’


So let's draw a line under this topic now and look forward to all this goodness arriving finally after such an epic journey. At a time when the world is falling apart politically and economically let's come together and reunite - like we were united before the last update - over something good and positive in all of this. After all, nobody was harmed in the making of this game, and if you can just relax and allow yourself to enjoy this sumptuous and immersive fantasy universe we are bringing to you you're going to have an amazing time.


Take care y'all,


Tristan xx
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Great Humble Response Tristan and for standing by your vision :-)
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Adrian_vN wrote:
eharding wrote:
I agree with Serious Gamer.

I've seen enough artists/designers change their original vision based on the voices of a few and I'm tired of seeing it happen."


Ironically, that's exactly what gex appears to be calling for! As has been established several times now, Tristan and Ania decided to change the art from a preview pic which was posted on Tristan's blog before the KS launched. Many presumptions have been made that Tristan has been coerced into making the change rather than he might have decided he wanted to do that anyway for his own personal satisfaction. Now, it's the vocal few who are clamouring for it to be changed (back) and threatening to demand refunds etc. Pots and kettles.

Whether the change was made before the KS or a few days into the KS doesn't matter to me as that is a VERY different situation from what I originally thought reading through the complaints (the KS ended, people bitched, change was made)
The reason I'm responding to this post is because the sad reality is people are becoming more reactive to the changing of artistic vision in order to satisfy the screams of the PC-police. This is a growing phenomenon in a sad world (caving to the mobs of "do good" PC-policers) and as such I can appreciate people becoming so sensitive to it. People SHOULD be outraged, but it sure would be nice to get the facts right first.
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Skrell wrote:
... the sad reality is people are becoming more reactive to the changing of artistic vision in order to satisfy the screams of the PC-police. This is a growing phenomenon in a sad world (caving to the mobs of "do good" PC-policers) and as such I can appreciate people becoming so sensitive to it. People SHOULD be outraged, but it sure would be nice to get the facts right first.


Hm, so after all this, are you certain it's the "PC police" doing the screaming? And that it's so clear that people SHOULD be outraged, and about which phenomena? The "PC police", or the hyper-sensitive "Freedom of speech" brigade?

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The nastiest comments I notice are from the anti-PC/anti-SJW crowd. They love going up in arms over the silliest stuff. Creating controversies where there are none.
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