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Subject: Fixing Milestones rss

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Mr Pretty
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All milestones award 1 glory instead of what is printed on the card.

Find the flaw other than the game is longer so you actually have to play it!
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Stephen Rochelle
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MrPretty wrote:
Find the flaw other than the game is longer so you actually have to play it!
The game is unnecessarily longer. It might make sense in the context of a single session; it does not make sense in the context of a campaign.
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The Chaz
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What "problem" does this fix?

It might be interesting to try the following. (and I recognize that I'm not identifying a "problem" that this fixes either)

The first time a milestone is reached, read the entry and award the points as normal. For the rest of the game, other players may achieve this same milestone. Players doing so receive a lesser reward (maybe just 1 glory less), and obviously don't trigger the reading of an entry. At the end of the game in which a milestone has been reached, destroy that milestone [card].

This should be suitable for almost every milestone. I'd probably campaign for that house rule if I knew then what I know now (which is about five games' worth of knowledge).
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Mr Pretty
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Bingo. It makes each game better.

Unnecessarily longer? As in no one can ever catch the winner so it might as well end earlier?

Or as in this game is meaningless because it's already not fun so why play it any longer than you have to?

It would seem to me that it would just make each game more important. And the reset at the end a little less brutal. And you would actually need to play it less to reach the end.

But what do I know. I'm still only two games in... I just feel like they could have been combined for a more interesting game.
 
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gary g
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How many people do you have battling for Unlocks?
The first and second games were 'ok' timed because everybody getting the urge to try and open the mysterious Unlocks.

Past the Starting and maybe next Box Milestone nobody has been consistently opening them every match and I'm like 5 games in with a 4P.

They get a little bit harder to complete instead of getting such and such amount of money in your vault or raiding someones ship.


I say you play the game as designed for a couple more games.
 
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Frank Pelkofer
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MrPretty wrote:
All milestones award 1 glory instead of what is printed on the card.


After 6 games with our 4 player group, I think this is an excellent suggestion.
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Becq Starforged
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Just a single glory for a milestone feels a little low to me, though I agree that the current numbers seem high. While I'd probably consider lowering the rewards a little (probably 1 glory in most cases), I think a more important change would be to allow milestones to be "claimed" by multiple players. By that I mean that if a milestone is possible to be claimed a second time, then the later claim still awards some token glory benefit (probably 1 glory), so long as it's during the same game.

Example: Two players are trying to claim the "Have 3 structures" milestone. The Red player succeeds fist, scores 2 glory for the milestone (assuming the award was reduced by 1), and reads the Booke entry. Then Blue builds his third structure on his following turn. Instead of getting nothing, he gets a consolation +1 glory (but does not read the Booke entry again).

I think I'd also consider the option of adding one additional turn to the end of each game. However, this might have odd balancing issues.
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Robin Baksh
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I do agree the milestone weighting in the first couple games is high. Our group felt that several were easy ways for lucky players to get quick glory early that were unavailable to other players. But as the game has progressed the milestone's effort to glory ratio has increased, with some involving multiple games to earn almost the same number of glory as the easy ones from the first game, and I believe the reasoning is this:

The game starts your off with some basic glory earning methods that I will hereby call ERUPTing (Explore, Raid, Upgrade/Build, Pickup/Deliver, Treasure). For the first game (possibly more) these along with milestones are the main way of earning glory. Since this is a legacy game, I don't feel it is a spoiler in saying that other ways of earning glory are introduced as the game progresses. Most of these other ways, work like later game milestones do, they take several turns (sometimes spanning multiple games) to accomplish and have a higher (3+) glory reward. And like milestones, they can only be earned by one player per game (or per campaign). In a lot of cases, these high-gain glory earning methods will actually require (or can be aided by ) you taking ERUPTing actions to achieve them.

I would say that for the most part, Seafall seems to be a game that evolves into focusing on gaining glory via the high-gain methods while optimally also gaining glory via ERUPTing.

So as for why the early milestones are weighted so much, my guess is that the designers wanted players to be earning glory at roughly the same rate for the early games as the late games, or at least do not want the early games to actually take longer because there was less high-gain methods of earning glory. So to compensate for this, they weighted the milestones longer. I am not saying it was the best design decision, but if that was their purpose, it made sense.

I do also want to say having high-gain methods of acquiring glory does make the game very fun, as their is not much that is hidden in the game, the other players can usually see it coming and either stop it or delay it. Had a player in our campaign just have an 8 point turn after the 4th round in the first year of our last game. Now that sounds very "swingy" given that he ended up with a 5 point lead over the next highest player, except that he had been working towards that 8 point turn for 3 games, and we actually stopped him from achieving it (and winning) in the last game.

ERUPTing is still a very significant method of scoring glory as the game progresses, it just isn't "the game". Our early leader, got the lead via milestones in game one, but hasn't earned one since. She maintained her lead for several games via low-gain methods of acquiring glory, chaining them together effectively in late game.
 
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Yitzhak Kornbluth
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I'm not sure that would be enough of a nerf. Most milestones are attained by actions that give glory anyway, and the permanent bonus reward is nearly as appealing as game-winning in its own right.

And if players don't want the game to reach its third winter, the glory threshold can be reduced. (The campaign will still be somewhat longer with nerfed milestones, since milestones drive campaign progress, so if you want a short campaign strong milestones are probably worth keeping.)
 
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Nathanaël Dufour
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countertorque wrote:
MrPretty wrote:
All milestones award 1 glory instead of what is printed on the card.


After 6 games with our 4 player group, I think this is an excellent suggestion.


While this would work, it may mean that player choose to pursue milestones INSTEAD of trying to win. One may dislike that the current game is almost entirely about milestones, but it does mean that if you try to win, you try to get milestones.

With your variant you may have games where one player try to win and other try to get milestones. It may mean games (individual games) lose an important tension, being just a step in the overall campaign.
 
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Benj Davis
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If you want to make milestones less of a swing, but still keep the game from being too long, perhaps doubling other glory awards?
 
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Becq Starforged
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Jlerpy wrote:
If you want to make milestones less of a swing, but still keep the game from being too long, perhaps doubling other glory awards?

Milestones aren't necessarily the only (or even the biggest) source of swing, and doubling other awards would push the average game length to under a game-year.

I think I'd suggest cutting the value of milestones roughly in half (which I think might scale well over all of the milestones I've seen), and do likewise with the other large glory awards.

(I also still favor the idea I suggested earlier, which is to give a small reward to a player that completes a milestone second (which isn't always possible, but when it is).
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Frank Pelkofer
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Osuniev wrote:
countertorque wrote:
MrPretty wrote:
All milestones award 1 glory instead of what is printed on the card.


After 6 games with our 4 player group, I think this is an excellent suggestion.


While this would work, it may mean that player choose to pursue milestones INSTEAD of trying to win. One may dislike that the current game is almost entirely about milestones, but it does mean that if you try to win, you try to get milestones.

With your variant you may have games where one player try to win and other try to get milestones. It may mean games (individual games) lose an important tension, being just a step in the overall campaign.


Spoiler for people who have played less than a couple of games:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
With the game as it is, the act of completing a milestone will often get you 75% of the points you need to win a game. You get the printed points on the milestone card, plus the glory from the action itself, plus you often get extra glory and a permanent upgrade from the Booke entry associated with the milestone. So, if it says 3 glory on the milestone, you can easily walk away with 9 glory plus a permanent upgrade from that 1 action.

This means that anyone who seriously plans to win a game must work toward the milestones. Beating other players to the milestones is the only viable single game strategy. And obviously, hanging 10 points on the other players in a single game is very helpful in winning the campaign.

If the printed value on the milestone was less, you'd still get a decent reward (like 5-6 glory instead of 9-10). This would allow the games to last longer and it would mean that people who didn't get the milestones wouldn't fall so far behind. Also, the games would last longer and they'd have more time to make up the distance.

Even if the milestones were giving 1 glory on the card, you're still getting permanent upgrades and extra glory from the Booke. So, completing them would still be essential to overall victory. I don't see why anyone would decide that they should avoid the milestones. I just think it is less painful for everyone who tried and failed to complete the milestone. It seems closer to what the designer intended: instead of being game ending events, the milestones are just really good.
 
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Nathanaël Dufour
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countertorque wrote:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
So, if it says 3 glory on the milestone, you can easily walk away with 9 glory plus a permanent upgrade from that 1 action.


More like 5 glory than 9. There are NO milestones as far as I know where the book gives you extra glory. There are Milestones which are completed through glory rich actions, such as (spoiler boxes 1 and 3)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
exploring Tombs, Islands, etc
 
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j n
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Osuniev wrote:
countertorque wrote:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
So, if it says 3 glory on the milestone, you can easily walk away with 9 glory plus a permanent upgrade from that 1 action.


More like 5 glory than 9. There are NO milestones as far as I know where the book gives you extra glory. There are Milestones which are completed through glory rich actions, such as (spoiler boxes 1 and 3)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
exploring Tombs, Islands, etc


We've got milestones open now that are likely to lead to 7-8 point swings on the turn they are accomplished, possibly a bit more depending on rewards.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Have two relics and Have 3 active colonies.


Two of the milestones we have accomplished
Spoiler (click to reveal)
give +1 glory stickers which can take effect immediately.


This post in the FAQ thread suggests that at least the 1 glory for some of the explorations should be subsumed by the glory printed in the Booke entry, which is how we are playing.

Personally, I don't think this is as much of a problem right now as some of y'all do. There was one milestone so far that felt sort of unfair/unexpected in just how much it was worth, because it was the first time
Spoiler (click to reveal)
we saw how good Tomb exploration could be


Now that we know those things are out there, and have a rough idea of what they are worth, it seems within reason to gauge roughly how long we have left in the game. It won't be exact, and there will be times someone is punished for an erroneous estimation, but we'll roll with it.

One thing I have done is started announcing if the end game looks to be in reach, so that other players who don't see it as well as I do can maybe have that extra turn to do change plans if needed.
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Chris Willott
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Having just started our second campaign, we've modified all glory bonuses to be worth half, rounded up (so 1s aren't affected - and we take them individually so 1+1 is still 2, not just 1). So far, so good, and the game is much more competitive. It extends the games by about 1-2 turns, which makes everyone feel a little more satisfied. I'm going to propose we (box 3 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
make the reliquary/museum worth 1 plus 1 per (not 2),

I also think we should keep the final island milestone as is, and maybe (box 4 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
conquering Patmos should be full glory,
and (box 5 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
possibly adding our own milestone for conquering Arados (same glory/reward as destroying the Temple but each one halved), because the island is otherwise useless,
and of course (box 6 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
defeating Hell should be full glory,
because they seem like the biggest events of the game and SHOULD result in a big swing.
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Becq Starforged
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Sounds like a good set of revisions. In the interest of "making big events rewarding", have you considered
(Box 3+)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
making relics and tablets worth a point of glory to their owner, in lieu of the reduced glory for discovering them? It seems as though they should have some inherent value (which could be taken away).
 
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(PSN) SilentSniper_X_
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What are all of your thoughts on making a change mid campaign?

Some background. We just finished game 6. So far I have won the first 5 games and could have won the 6th, but I basically left some glory on the table on the last turn because I felt bad and lost by 1 glory. I don't have our glory counts on hand, but I'm sitting at around 98 glory and the other 3 players are all around the high 40s low 50s. We also just opened box 5 during our last game.

What I am considering doing is going through all the old milestones and making their glory values half rounded up and then applying that same rule to all future milestones. This would have the largest effect on me. Two of our players only have completed 1 milestone each, another player has completed 2 or 3 milestones, and I've completed the rest. I estimate that two players will have their glory dropped by a point or two, the third player will have their campaign glory dropped by 4-6 points, and I will have my glory dropped by 15-20 points.

Do you all think this would be a good change to implement or not?
 
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j n
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If it sounds good to you and your playgroup, go for it.

(The only problems I see it maybe causing are interpersonal ones, but it sounds like that's not likely to be an issue for you).
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Becq Starforged
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I would say that it's reasonable, so long as your opponents agree. I think it would be best if it was unanimous.

However, keep in mind that while it will bring scores closer together, it might also make it that much harder for those behind to catch up (since there aren't jackpots for them to take advantage of, and it might also reduce the impact of the catch-up mechanics).

I guess I'm a little surprised that the extra 30 or so gold the trailing players are getting isn't slowing you down any...
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Chris Willott
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Becq wrote:
Sounds like a good set of revisions. In the interest of "making big events rewarding", have you considered
(Box 3+)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
making relics and tablets worth a point of glory to their owner, in lieu of the reduced glory for discovering them? It seems as though they should have some inherent value (which could be taken away).

(box 3 spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Considered, yes. But tablets and relics HAVE inherent value, they have awesome abilities! For that possession to then result in an extra glory EACH GAME would break them even more. It would really advantage the person who already has a big advantage.
 
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Chris Willott
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Becq wrote:

I guess I'm a little surprised that the extra 30 or so gold the trailing players are getting isn't slowing you down any...


Given my own experience (with both my opponents getting those 30+ bonuses), I'm not. While they spend their first turns dicking around building things, I was forced to raid and explore, and got extra glory while building up supplies and upgrades. Plus the win bonus are significantly useful to prevent losing from being a winning strategy (long-term).
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Same. I've been consistently behind in my campaign (as have two others), and having enough to buy a single 2nd tier building/upgrade right away hasn't been the game-changer I anticipated it would be early on. The two guys way up front complain that they don't start with anything good, but they still end up winning anyway so it's hard to feel bad for 'em.

We are now starting to collude more down at the bottom and are going to try to deprive the guys up top of what they need by emptying the upgrades before they have a chance, but we'll see if that actually has any effect.
 
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j n
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In general I feel that the second-tier structures aren't all that hot. Two 10-cost upgrades on the other hand can put in some serious work (while also being worth twice the glory).
 
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(PSN) SilentSniper_X_
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Becq wrote:

I guess I'm a little surprised that the extra 30 or so gold the trailing players are getting isn't slowing you down any...


Its probably has a lot to do with my group. Our last place player seems to have a serious case of "Oh Look .. Squirrel syndrome" and while he starts each game with a good plan he seems to change it several times a game. Our 3rd place player I can't honestly say what hes doing as he seems to meander a bit doing an odd exploration here and there. Our second place player has been playing as a straight builder/trader and plays sound in that regard except the game always seems to end a turn or 2 before he can complete a milestone. (He's had 2 colonies for 2 whole games now and the get 3 colonies has yet to be completed). It probably also doesn't help that the other 3 players seem very averse to pvp raids. There have only been 2 raids against other players, both by me. One was to sink a ship for the milestone, the other was to steal the strange chart for a milestone. So basically I'm left alone.

Quote:
However, keep in mind that while it will bring scores closer together, it might also make it that much harder for those behind to catch up (since there aren't jackpots for them to take advantage of, and it might also reduce the impact of the catch-up mechanics).

My players have reached a point where they think my lead currently is insurmountable. Decreasing the gap would probably decrease this feeling. Also as the majority of my glory has been through milestones it may hurt me more in the upcoming games then them. Two games I won by basically catapulting from 1-5 glory to a point or 2 away from victory off a single milestone.
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