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Subject: Pre-Election Week-End Thoughts on Why I Couldn't Force Myself to Vote Clinton rss

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I get it. Donald Trump is possibly the least-qualified presidential candidate ever. He lacks experience, knowledge, and most of all tact. He's a carnival barker, a charlatan, and a thoroughly despicable human being. He has been all these for his entire adult life, and he's extremely unlikely to change. In a perfect world, he would only be allowed to enter the White House as part of a tour group.

However, this is not a perfect world. Donald Trump is the Republican nominee. The only viable alternative is Hillary Clinton. One of them will be elected on Tuesday.

And what do we get with Hillary? Experience? Yes. Of a sort. Knowledge? Yes. Of a sort. Tact? In spades, but it's the wrong kind of tact. She's checked all the boxes generally expected on a presidential candidate's resume and then some. She was First Lady. Senator. Secretary of State. She knows the ropes and has been a fixture in Washington politics for decades. And therein lies the rub.

Somewhere along the way, Hillary Clinton got lost. She took turn after turn in her journey toward the political promised land. All of them were wrong turns that took her further and further from where she came and from where she belonged. She chose K Street and Wall Street over Main Street. She chose power politics over public service. She chose secrecy over disclosure. She chose enrichment over integrity.

She has nothing left to offer this country. We no longer see the real Hillary Clinton, if such a person still exists. What we see is a mere shell masking the monstrous combination of avarice and power-lust. In this, she is no different from Donald J. Trump. The question then becomes which of two charlatans we should accept as our next leader. I no longer care because I can only distinguish one meaningful difference between them: Clinton knows Washington politics inside and out while Trump does not.

What do I envision from a Trump administration? Who the fuck really knows? It will certainly be stylish and grand, but will there be any substance? President Trump will do his best JFK impersonation, all of it out in the open rather than off the record and hidden behind closed doors. He'll make a gaffe a week. Maybe he'll eventually learn when to shut the fuck up, but probably not. White House press secretary will once again be the most difficult job in politics. SCOTUS will get its replacements from the conservative ranks. Congressional Republicans will pare back the social safety net. Some of that will be good, some of it bad. Trump will force Congress to do something about illegal immigration. Some of that will be good, some of it bad. Obamacare will be consigned to the dustbin of history. Some of that will be good...yeah, you get the point. The republic will not collapse, and the people will go on as before. They'll just have a different president to criticize for different reasons.

What do I envision from a Clinton administration? Four years of gridlock while Congress holds hearings and appoints special prosecutors to bring down the Clintons (plural), their foundation, and the people who bankroll them. More revelations about pay-for-play. More revelations about foreign intrigue. More revelations about sloppy security and secrets exposed. Political appointments based on connections rather than on suitability. Pressing problems left on the back burner. A scandal a week, not without cause and not just because the media loves a scandal. A lame duck presidency from Day One, with no way forward and no way out.

That's the reality I see. The choice is between two power-hungry candidates of dubious judgment, character, and motivations, one of whom should have known better and done better but didn't.

Bye-bye, Hillary. You have no one but yourself to blame. You haven't earned my vote or, judging by recent polls, the votes of millions of others who are apparently abandoning your candidacy as Election Day approaches. If that means a Trump presidency then so be it.

I voted for Gary Johnson. He might be wacky and libertarian, but he's not a self-obsessed power-seeker like his rivals, and I'd personally be fine with a Libertarian president. Libertarians might be crazy, but at least they don't want to spend lots of money we don't have and blow up countries we've never heard of. The nicest thing about being Libertarian is that you don't need to know where Aleppo is located because you're not planning on bombing it and don't feel compelled to rescue it from itself.

The rest is up to y'all. Good luck with getting your chosen president to so something positive for your interests. I have extreme doubts about both of them, but I no longer care which of them wins.

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You wasted your vote, you have no right to complain whatever comes as you facilitated it .
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SPIGuy wrote:
I get it. Donald Trump is possibly the least-qualified presidential candidate ever. He lacks experience, knowledge, and most of all tact. He's a carnival barker, a charlatan, and a thoroughly despicable human being. He has been all these for his entire adult life, and he's extremely unlikely to change. In a perfect world, he would only be allowed to enter the White House as part of a tour group.

However, this is not a perfect world. Donald Trump is the Republican nominee. The only viable alternative is Hillary Clinton. One of them will be elected on Tuesday.

And what do we get with Hillary? Experience? Yes. Of a sort. Knowledge? Yes. Of a sort. Tact? In spades, but it's the wrong kind of tact. She's checked all the boxes generally expected on a presidential candidate's resume and then some. She was First Lady. Senator. Secretary of State. She knows the ropes and has been a fixture in Washington politics for decades. And therein lies the rub.

Somewhere along the way, Hillary Clinton got lost. She took turn after turn in her journey toward the political promised land. All of them were wrong turns that took her further and further from where she came and from where she belonged. She chose K Street and Wall Street over Main Street. She chose power politics over public service. She chose secrecy over disclosure. She chose enrichment over integrity.

She has nothing left to offer this country. We no longer see the real Hillary Clinton, if such a person still exists. What we see is a mere shell masking the monstrous combination of avarice and power-lust. In this, she is no different from Donald J. Trump. The question then becomes which of two charlatans we should accept as our next leader. I no longer care because I can only distinguish one meaningful difference between them: Clinton knows Washington politics inside and out while Trump does not.

What do I envision from a Trump administration? Who the fuck really knows? It will certainly be stylish and grand, but will there be any substance? President Trump will do his best JFK impersonation, all of it out in the open rather than off the record and hidden behind closed doors. He'll make a gaffe a week. Maybe he'll eventually learn when to shut the fuck up, but probably not. White House press secretary will once again be the most difficult job in politics. SCOTUS will get its replacements from the conservative ranks. Congressional Republicans will pare back the social safety net. Some of that will be good, some of it bad. Trump will force Congress to do something about illegal immigration. Some of that will be good, some of it bad. Obamacare will be consigned to the dustbin of history. Some of that will be good...yeah, you get the point. The republic will not collapse, and the people will go on as before. They'll just have a different president to criticize for different reasons.

What do I envision from a Clinton administration? Four years of gridlock while Congress holds hearings and appoints special prosecutors to bring down the Clintons (plural), their foundation, and the people who bankroll them. More revelations about pay-for-play. More revelations about foreign intrigue. More revelations about sloppy security and secrets exposed. Political appointments based on connections rather than on suitability. Pressing problems left on the back burner. A scandal a week, not without cause and not just because the media loves a scandal. A lame duck presidency from Day One, with no way forward and no way out.

That's the reality I see. The choice is between two power-hungry candidates of dubious judgment, character, and motivations, one of whom should have known better and done better but didn't.

Bye-bye, Hillary. You have no one but yourself to blame. You haven't earned my vote or, judging by recent polls, the votes of millions of others who are apparently abandoning your candidacy as Election Day approaches. If that means a Trump presidency then so be it.

I voted for Gary Johnson. He might be wacky and libertarian, but he's not a self-obsessed power-seeker like his rivals, and I'd personally be fine with a Libertarian president. Libertarians might be crazy, but at least they don't want to spend lots of money we don't have and blow up countries we've never heard of. The nicest thing about being Libertarian is that you don't need to know where Aleppo is located because you're not planning on bombing it and don't feel compelled to rescue it from itself.

The rest is up to y'all. Good luck with getting your chosen president to so something positive for your interests. I have extreme doubts about both of them, but I no longer care which of them wins.



You manage to leave out in your calculation the racial and bigoted animus driving Trump's campaign. His lies about 9/11 to whip up hatred again the Muslim minority among our citizens. You expect that to abate once the election is over? I remember reading about those "good Germans" thinking the sames things about Hitler in the 1930s. But you seem not to care, probably because they won't effect you

You also leave out the alt right backing of his campaign. Like Steve Bannon of Breitbart, the website whipping up hysteria against immigrants, or Alex Jones of Infowars harping his anti Semitic rants against the Jewish Mafia. Expect their influence to wane after a Trump election?

And you leave out the promise of rolling back rights for the gay community as far as marriage is concerned. You ok with stripping rights away from citizens?

We have never had a Presidential candidate in my memory ride in on a white supremacist tide like he is doing, and the worst you think will happen in his candidacy is a "gaffe a week" or his inability to control what he says. Trump talks about his getting into an office as our own Brexit. In this he is probably correct in that there was a 40% surge in hate crimes after that vote. One fully expects the same here.

So if the above is your reasoning you are either an abysmally stupid human being, or your Clinton hatred is so much you don't give a shit about what happens to the fabric. Of the nation.

Don't blame Hillary, when you are doing exactly what Donald wants. This idiocy is all on you. Hopefully the nation will not have to pay for this kind of reasoning by equally stupid people
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SPIGuy wrote:

Somewhere along the way, Hillary Clinton got lost. She took turn after turn in her journey toward the political promised land. All of them were wrong turns that took her further and further from where she came and from where she belonged. She chose K Street and Wall Street over Main Street. She chose power politics over public service. She chose secrecy over disclosure. She chose enrichment over integrity.



Trying to get an honest opinion, as you don't seem to be partisan:
what make you think that she picked K St and W St over Main St? She is ambitious and she has been in the circles of power for so long, it's no surprise she's being connected with everybody, no?
I think it is important to evaluate her on her previous jobs, do you think she failed when she was senator or secretary of state ( she made mistakes of course, but overall?) ?
What makes you think (other than the republican gridlock that won't happen for sure if the democrats control one house) that it won't be some sort of Obama 3.0 when she is president?
About Trump, he wants to divide the country between lines, he does not want to work with everybody, do you think it is a good thing? Don't you see a risk of him waging a war even more damaging than the Iraq war? Don't you think he'll get impeached at every corner for his careless behaviors?
That's the kind of questions I'm asking myself, and I'm interested in non partisan perspectives....


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SPIGuy wrote:
I get it. Donald Trump is possibly the least-qualified presidential candidate ever. He lacks experience, knowledge, and most of all tact. He's a carnival barker, a charlatan, and a thoroughly despicable human being. He has been all these for his entire adult life, and he's extremely unlikely to change. In a perfect world, he would only be allowed to enter the White House as part of a tour group.

However, this is not a perfect world. Donald Trump is the Republican nominee. The only viable alternative is Hillary Clinton. One of them will be elected on Tuesday.

And what do we get with Hillary? Experience? Yes. Of a sort. Knowledge? Yes. Of a sort. Tact? In spades, but it's the wrong kind of tact. She's checked all the boxes generally expected on a presidential candidate's resume and then some. She was First Lady. Senator. Secretary of State. She knows the ropes and has been a fixture in Washington politics for decades. And therein lies the rub.

Somewhere along the way, Hillary Clinton got lost. She took turn after turn in her journey toward the political promised land. All of them were wrong turns that took her further and further from where she came and from where she belonged. She chose K Street and Wall Street over Main Street. She chose power politics over public service. She chose secrecy over disclosure. She chose enrichment over integrity.

She has nothing left to offer this country. We no longer see the real Hillary Clinton, if such a person still exists. What we see is a mere shell masking the monstrous combination of avarice and power-lust. In this, she is no different from Donald J. Trump. The question then becomes which of two charlatans we should accept as our next leader. I no longer care because I can only distinguish one meaningful difference between them: Clinton knows Washington politics inside and out while Trump does not.

What do I envision from a Trump administration? Who the fuck really knows? It will certainly be stylish and grand, but will there be any substance? President Trump will do his best JFK impersonation, all of it out in the open rather than off the record and hidden behind closed doors. He'll make a gaffe a week. Maybe he'll eventually learn when to shut the fuck up, but probably not. White House press secretary will once again be the most difficult job in politics. SCOTUS will get its replacements from the conservative ranks. Congressional Republicans will pare back the social safety net. Some of that will be good, some of it bad. Trump will force Congress to do something about illegal immigration. Some of that will be good, some of it bad. Obamacare will be consigned to the dustbin of history. Some of that will be good...yeah, you get the point. The republic will not collapse, and the people will go on as before. They'll just have a different president to criticize for different reasons.

What do I envision from a Clinton administration? Four years of gridlock while Congress holds hearings and appoints special prosecutors to bring down the Clintons (plural), their foundation, and the people who bankroll them. More revelations about pay-for-play. More revelations about foreign intrigue. More revelations about sloppy security and secrets exposed. Political appointments based on connections rather than on suitability. Pressing problems left on the back burner. A scandal a week, not without cause and not just because the media loves a scandal. A lame duck presidency from Day One, with no way forward and no way out.

That's the reality I see. The choice is between two power-hungry candidates of dubious judgment, character, and motivations, one of whom should have known better and done better but didn't.

Bye-bye, Hillary. You have no one but yourself to blame. You haven't earned my vote or, judging by recent polls, the votes of millions of others who are apparently abandoning your candidacy as Election Day approaches. If that means a Trump presidency then so be it.

I voted for Gary Johnson. He might be wacky and libertarian, but he's not a self-obsessed power-seeker like his rivals, and I'd personally be fine with a Libertarian president. Libertarians might be crazy, but at least they don't want to spend lots of money we don't have and blow up countries we've never heard of. The nicest thing about being Libertarian is that you don't need to know where Aleppo is located because you're not planning on bombing it and don't feel compelled to rescue it from itself.

The rest is up to y'all. Good luck with getting your chosen president to so something positive for your interests. I have extreme doubts about both of them, but I no longer care which of them wins.



Well written and well done sir.

Tip of the hat to you.


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The choice is between Adolf Trump and Benito Clinton and you wast your vote on some nitwit that ends with 1% or 2%. Thanks for letting the world down.

How to vote? Choose the lesser of the two evils!
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Joe Cool wrote:
SPIGuy wrote:

Somewhere along the way, Hillary Clinton got lost. She took turn after turn in her journey toward the political promised land. All of them were wrong turns that took her further and further from where she came and from where she belonged. She chose K Street and Wall Street over Main Street. She chose power politics over public service. She chose secrecy over disclosure. She chose enrichment over integrity.



Trying to get an honest opinion, as you don't seem to be partisan:
what make you think that she picked K St and W St over Main St? She is ambitious and she has been in the circles of power for so long, it's no surprise she's being connected with everybody, no?
I think it is important to evaluate her on her previous jobs, do you think she failed when she was senator or secretary of state ( she made mistakes of course, but overall?) ?
What makes you think (other than the republican gridlock that won't happen for sure if the democrats control one house) that it won't be some sort of Obama 3.0 when she is president?
About Trump, he wants to divide the country between lines, he does not want to work with everybody, do you think it is a good thing? Don't you see a risk of him waging a war even more damaging than the Iraq war? Don't you think he'll get impeached at every corner for his careless behaviors?
That's the kind of questions I'm asking myself, and I'm interested in non partisan perspectives....




Trump is using the standard Republican playbook of divide and conquer. History shows that this technique never leads to good things for our country as a whole, because it only exacerbates the issue.

Furthermore, endorsing that technique, by voting for Trump will only strengthen a party that is already in shambles, because they know it will work for them - rather than them reinventing themselves and purging the extremes from their party.

I guess if you are interested in multiple parties, then fracturing the Republicans by voting for HRC will result in two versions of Republican philosophy - the militant and the intellectual. If you want to weed out the deplorables and save the intellectuals, then HRC is your choice.

If you want to support the horrible nature of the Republican party, that stretches back decades, but has become a monster of destruction since 2008 (starting with the racist Joe Wilson putting his "slave" in place during the State of the Union address) - then you will vote for Trump.

So, this election isn't just about picking between HRC and Trump, it is about deciding what you think is best for our country's future.

Admittedly, HRC is a politician at heart, but a cunning, intelligent, and dedicated person that has been painted with every horrible attack since she decided to join the Political system. There is a virulent wing of Republicanism, started by Lee Atwater, that believed in only one thing - which was to personally destroy your opponent by any means necessary. That treatment of HRC has been in effect for 24 years now. So much so, that it has rewired the brains of most conservatives to have a Clockwork Orange reaction to the mere sight of HRC. It is no longer intellectual, but habit.

I despise everything that the Republican party currently represents, and that is coming from someone that identifies as a conservative Democrat. They are a party that needs to die, in order to be reborn.

To top it all off, Donald Trump is the least qualified, most destructive human that has existed in modern US politics. He represents himself, has zero plans or policies, and truly doesn't give one fuck about you, this country, or the effects of anything he does.

The fact that he is even on the ticket proves how broken the modern, Republican party is.

So, I guess if you want to continue the political climate that we have been subjected to for the past decade, you will vote for Trump. But then expect it to get much, much worse, because he will take an already unstable situation and add more catalysts that not only affect our country directly, but the rest of the world.

Also, if you have any savings or retirement account, and you think Trump will win - then you should park everything outside for the next several months - because as you see the markets are already giving you a hint of the smart play.

So, in short, I will vote for HRC due to her ability to be an effective leader for our country. She has proven that she can take anything and everything thrown her way. Smart, intellectual, cunning, and will do what it takes.

Voting for Trump, or any 3rd party candidate, is just allowing the decline of our political system to continue. Oh, and as a bonus, you directly support every negative aspect of our society (hate, racism, thuggery, violence), because not only will they believe they can express these actions publicly, they are endorsed to do them.

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anemaat wrote:
The choice is between Adolf Trump and Benito Clinton and you wast your vote on some nitwit that ends with 1% or 2%. Thanks for letting the world down.

How to vote? Choose the lesser of the two evils!


If you are going to vote for evil, then why limit yourself to the lesser?
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Dispaminite wrote:
anemaat wrote:
The choice is between Adolf Trump and Benito Clinton and you wast your vote on some nitwit that ends with 1% or 2%. Thanks for letting the world down.

How to vote? Choose the lesser of the two evils!


If you are going to vote for evil, then why limit yourself to the lesser?

to minimize the evil
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ImaSokpupet wrote:
A vote for Trump is a vote to make main stream media watchable for the next four years.

why would you watch it in the first place?
 
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Kumitedad wrote:
You manage to leave out in your calculation the racial and bigoted animus driving Trump's campaign. His lies about 9/11 to whip up hatred again the Muslim minority among our citizens. You expect that to abate once the election is over? I remember reading about those "good Germans" thinking the sames things about Hitler in the 1930s. But you seem not to care, probably because they won't effect you

You also leave out the alt right backing of his campaign. Like Steve Bannon of Breitbart, the website whipping up hysteria against immigrants, or Alex Jones of Infowars harping his anti Semitic rants against the Jewish Mafia. Expect their influence to wane after a Trump election?

And you leave out the promise of rolling back rights for the gay community as far as marriage is concerned. You ok with stripping rights away from citizens?

We have never had a Presidential candidate in my memory ride in on a white supremacist tide like he is doing, and the worst you think will happen in his candidacy is a "gaffe a week" or his inability to control what he says. Trump talks about his getting into an office as our own Brexit. In this he is probably correct in that there was a 40% surge in hate crimes after that vote. One fully expects the same here.

So if the above is your reasoning you are either an abysmally stupid human being, or your Clinton hatred is so much you don't give a shit about what happens to the fabric. Of the nation.

Don't blame Hillary, when you are doing exactly what Donald wants. This idiocy is all on you. Hopefully the nation will not have to pay for this kind of reasoning by equally stupid people

We already had this particular discussion in another thread, and I wasn't buying there either. If your best pitch is that Donald Trump is Hitler 2.0 then that shows more about your desperation and partisan fandom than it does about your judgment. Trump would make a bad president not because he's got a swastika flag hidden in his closet, but because he's a huckster and manipulator who doesn't really have a coherent philosophy and doesn't appear to value having a coherent philosophy.

But it's not just about Donald Trump. It's also about Hillary Clinton. She has a philosophy, alright, but it's not one to be admired. Regardless of their inspiration, wikileaks shows her to be a venal manipulator whose goal is to amass personal fortune while pretending public service. She's just as much as much a huckster and has just as much disdain for the common people as Trump, but she hides it behind a shroud of secrecy which separates the private from the public. Her connections and years of experience in Washington make her more, and not less, dangerous. She would also make a bad president.

In the end, bad is bad, poison is poison. It's a fool's errand to choose between them.

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jmilum wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
anemaat wrote:
The choice is between Adolf Trump and Benito Clinton and you wast your vote on some nitwit that ends with 1% or 2%. Thanks for letting the world down.

How to vote? Choose the lesser of the two evils!


If you are going to vote for evil, then why limit yourself to the lesser?

to minimize the evil


Then vote for good.
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Dispaminite wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
anemaat wrote:
The choice is between Adolf Trump and Benito Clinton and you wast your vote on some nitwit that ends with 1% or 2%. Thanks for letting the world down.

How to vote? Choose the lesser of the two evils!


If you are going to vote for evil, then why limit yourself to the lesser?

to minimize the evil


Then vote for good.


But good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win.
 
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But voting for the lesser of three evils will totally change everything!
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SPIGuy wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
You manage to leave out in your calculation the racial and bigoted animus driving Trump's campaign. His lies about 9/11 to whip up hatred again the Muslim minority among our citizens. You expect that to abate once the election is over? I remember reading about those "good Germans" thinking the sames things about Hitler in the 1930s. But you seem not to care, probably because they won't effect you

You also leave out the alt right backing of his campaign. Like Steve Bannon of Breitbart, the website whipping up hysteria against immigrants, or Alex Jones of Infowars harping his anti Semitic rants against the Jewish Mafia. Expect their influence to wane after a Trump election?

And you leave out the promise of rolling back rights for the gay community as far as marriage is concerned. You ok with stripping rights away from citizens?

We have never had a Presidential candidate in my memory ride in on a white supremacist tide like he is doing, and the worst you think will happen in his candidacy is a "gaffe a week" or his inability to control what he says. Trump talks about his getting into an office as our own Brexit. In this he is probably correct in that there was a 40% surge in hate crimes after that vote. One fully expects the same here.

So if the above is your reasoning you are either an abysmally stupid human being, or your Clinton hatred is so much you don't give a shit about what happens to the fabric. Of the nation.

Don't blame Hillary, when you are doing exactly what Donald wants. This idiocy is all on you. Hopefully the nation will not have to pay for this kind of reasoning by equally stupid people

We already had this particular discussion in another thread, and I wasn't buying there either. If your best pitch is that Donald Trump is Hitler 2.0 then that shows more about your desperation and partisan fandom than it does about your judgment. Trump would make a bad president not because he's got a swastika flag hidden in his closet, but because he's a huckster and manipulator who doesn't really have a coherent philosophy and doesn't appear to value having a coherent philosophy.

But it's not just about Donald Trump. It's also about Hillary Clinton. She has a philosophy, alright, but it's not one to be admired. Regardless of their inspiration, wikileaks shows her to be a venal manipulator whose goal is to amass personal fortune while pretending public service. She's just as much as much a huckster and has just as much disdain for the common people as Trump, but she hides it behind a shroud of secrecy which separates the private from the public. Her connections and years of experience in Washington make her more, and not less, dangerous. She would also make a bad president.

In the end, bad is bad, poison is poison. It's a fool's errand to choose between them.



Funny how you can't gainsay any points I bring up against Trump aside for the usual weak ass "but Hillary" argument. So basically you can't hit my "best pitch". Or are facts partisan now for some reason.

If you think even given what you think Hillary is capable of is true, that they are equally bad, then you are really an abysmally ignorant human being. Try answering at least one of my points, or is that really beyond your capabilities.

So basically, all you are proving by trying draw an equivalence as what The Donald has said he would do, with what you think Hillary might do is justify an irrational decision. Or does the harm he will do to the country not count because minorities and other folks will bear the brunt.

So not as much my being on a "fools errand" as you being a pretentious cretin who obvious does not care about the country as a whole.

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Joe Cool wrote:
SPIGuy wrote:

Somewhere along the way, Hillary Clinton got lost. She took turn after turn in her journey toward the political promised land. All of them were wrong turns that took her further and further from where she came and from where she belonged. She chose K Street and Wall Street over Main Street. She chose power politics over public service. She chose secrecy over disclosure. She chose enrichment over integrity.



Trying to get an honest opinion, as you don't seem to be partisan:
what make you think that she picked K St and W St over Main St? She is ambitious and she has been in the circles of power for so long, it's no surprise she's being connected with everybody, no?
I think it is important to evaluate her on her previous jobs, do you think she failed when she was senator or secretary of state ( she made mistakes of course, but overall?) ?
What makes you think (other than the republican gridlock that won't happen for sure if the democrats control one house) that it won't be some sort of Obama 3.0 when she is president?
About Trump, he wants to divide the country between lines, he does not want to work with everybody, do you think it is a good thing? Don't you see a risk of him waging a war even more damaging than the Iraq war? Don't you think he'll get impeached at every corner for his careless behaviors?
That's the kind of questions I'm asking myself, and I'm interested in non partisan perspectives....



I think that Clinton had one undistinguished Senate term and one bad term as Secretary of State. It's difficult to discern how much of the business end at State was Clinton and how much Obama, but it's not at all difficult to discern her treatment of the office as a way to leverage donations to the Clinton Foundation and pad her wealth. It's not at all difficult to discern her cavalier attitude toward communications security, which seems to have been primarily motivated by keeping things secret from posterity (and the FBI) rather than keeping them secret from our enemies.

I do expect gridlock if Clinton becomes president. The difference is that President Obama, despite the white-knuckle hatred and partisanship he's been subjected to, is not a dishonest power broker. The same cannot be said of Hillary Clinton. Congress won't have to dredge up specious reasons to attack President Clinton. She's done their work for them. The emails aren't going away. Neither is pay-for-play. Unlike Benghazi, these are issues with real substance behind them and real corruption at their heart.

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ImaSokpupet wrote:
A vote for Trump is a vote to make main stream media watchable for the next four years. If Hillary is elected, the media will have such a thrill up their own leg kissing the ass of the first android president that they won't be doing their job holding politicians feet to the fire asking tough questions.


Yes, I'm going to base my entire vote on how it affects the news/media.

Can you even map out the flowchart how your plan would work, with proof of concept data?

Otherwise, I'm going to vote for Jill Stein, because it will get me a Unicorn in every kitchen pot, hand-delivered by FDR, and blessed by Pope John Paul II and Jesus himsef.

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GameCrossing wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
anemaat wrote:
The choice is between Adolf Trump and Benito Clinton and you wast your vote on some nitwit that ends with 1% or 2%. Thanks for letting the world down.

How to vote? Choose the lesser of the two evils!


If you are going to vote for evil, then why limit yourself to the lesser?

to minimize the evil


Then vote for good.


But good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win. Because people are too obsessed with voting for the lesser of two evils. Because good can't win.


Ah, the ongoing dance between idealism and practicality.

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SPIGuy wrote:
Joe Cool wrote:
SPIGuy wrote:

Somewhere along the way, Hillary Clinton got lost. She took turn after turn in her journey toward the political promised land. All of them were wrong turns that took her further and further from where she came and from where she belonged. She chose K Street and Wall Street over Main Street. She chose power politics over public service. She chose secrecy over disclosure. She chose enrichment over integrity.



Trying to get an honest opinion, as you don't seem to be partisan:
what make you think that she picked K St and W St over Main St? She is ambitious and she has been in the circles of power for so long, it's no surprise she's being connected with everybody, no?
I think it is important to evaluate her on her previous jobs, do you think she failed when she was senator or secretary of state ( she made mistakes of course, but overall?) ?
What makes you think (other than the republican gridlock that won't happen for sure if the democrats control one house) that it won't be some sort of Obama 3.0 when she is president?
About Trump, he wants to divide the country between lines, he does not want to work with everybody, do you think it is a good thing? Don't you see a risk of him waging a war even more damaging than the Iraq war? Don't you think he'll get impeached at every corner for his careless behaviors?
That's the kind of questions I'm asking myself, and I'm interested in non partisan perspectives....



I think that Clinton had one undistinguished Senate term and one bad term as Secretary of State. It's difficult to discern how much of the business end at State was Clinton and how much Obama, but it's not at all difficult to discern her treatment of the office as a way to leverage donations to the Clinton Foundation and pad her wealth. It's not at all difficult to discern her cavalier attitude toward communications security, which seems to have been primarily motivated by keeping things secret from posterity (and the FBI) rather than keeping them secret from our enemies.

I do expect gridlock if Clinton becomes president. The difference is that President Obama, despite the white-knuckle hatred and partisanship he's been subjected to, is not a dishonest power broker. The same cannot be said of Hillary Clinton. Congress won't have to dredge up specious reasons to attack President Clinton. She's done their work for them. The emails aren't going away. Neither is pay-for-play. Unlike Benghazi, these are issues with real substance behind them and real corruption at their heart.



Using her office to possibly leverage donations to a charitable organization that has helped millions of people is the worst you have on Clinton? the standard for evil is sooooooo low these days.



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SPIGuy wrote:
Joe Cool wrote:
SPIGuy wrote:

Somewhere along the way, Hillary Clinton got lost. She took turn after turn in her journey toward the political promised land. All of them were wrong turns that took her further and further from where she came and from where she belonged. She chose K Street and Wall Street over Main Street. She chose power politics over public service. She chose secrecy over disclosure. She chose enrichment over integrity.



Trying to get an honest opinion, as you don't seem to be partisan:
what make you think that she picked K St and W St over Main St? She is ambitious and she has been in the circles of power for so long, it's no surprise she's being connected with everybody, no?
I think it is important to evaluate her on her previous jobs, do you think she failed when she was senator or secretary of state ( she made mistakes of course, but overall?) ?
What makes you think (other than the republican gridlock that won't happen for sure if the democrats control one house) that it won't be some sort of Obama 3.0 when she is president?
About Trump, he wants to divide the country between lines, he does not want to work with everybody, do you think it is a good thing? Don't you see a risk of him waging a war even more damaging than the Iraq war? Don't you think he'll get impeached at every corner for his careless behaviors?
That's the kind of questions I'm asking myself, and I'm interested in non partisan perspectives....



I think that Clinton had one undistinguished Senate term and one bad term as Secretary of State. It's difficult to discern how much of the business end at State was Clinton and how much Obama, but it's not at all difficult to discern her treatment of the office as a way to leverage donations to the Clinton Foundation and pad her wealth. It's not at all difficult to discern her cavalier attitude toward communications security, which seems to have been primarily motivated by keeping things secret from posterity (and the FBI) rather than keeping them secret from our enemies.

I do expect gridlock if Clinton becomes president. The difference is that President Obama, despite the white-knuckle hatred and partisanship he's been subjected to, is not a dishonest power broker. The same cannot be said of Hillary Clinton. Congress won't have to dredge up specious reasons to attack President Clinton. She's done their work for them. The emails aren't going away. Neither is pay-for-play. Unlike Benghazi, these are issues with real substance behind them and real corruption at their heart.



When any of these allegations actually have truth and a conviction behind them, then I will give them the time of day to process. Otherwise, you are giving them too much credit, because there is an entire industry/machine that has been in production for 20+ years in trying to create these issues.

So, you based your decision entirely on accusations, but no conviction. Essentially, you dragged the accused into the street and performed the punishment without due process. Seems kinda vigilante behavior that makes you feel all warm and good inside, but has diminished society in the process.

Its OK, its a human frailty. I just hope that nobody ever accuses you of wrongdoing, because of circumstance, or because you are target - and then you are tried and punished without due process.

Like I said - give me one prosecution that sticks against HRC, and I'm all ears. Not the trumped out scenarios and traps laid by the opposition (Whitewater! Vince Foster! Clinton Foundation! Secret Murders!), but something that is truly illegal, has been proven in a court of law, has been convicted, and sentenced. Then I will begin to believe you.

Otherwise, you are just falling into the trap set for you. And the others. It truly is the worst of human frailties, to be duped.
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maxo-texas wrote:
SPIGuy wrote:
Joe Cool wrote:
SPIGuy wrote:

Somewhere along the way, Hillary Clinton got lost. She took turn after turn in her journey toward the political promised land. All of them were wrong turns that took her further and further from where she came and from where she belonged. She chose K Street and Wall Street over Main Street. She chose power politics over public service. She chose secrecy over disclosure. She chose enrichment over integrity.



Trying to get an honest opinion, as you don't seem to be partisan:
what make you think that she picked K St and W St over Main St? She is ambitious and she has been in the circles of power for so long, it's no surprise she's being connected with everybody, no?
I think it is important to evaluate her on her previous jobs, do you think she failed when she was senator or secretary of state ( she made mistakes of course, but overall?) ?
What makes you think (other than the republican gridlock that won't happen for sure if the democrats control one house) that it won't be some sort of Obama 3.0 when she is president?
About Trump, he wants to divide the country between lines, he does not want to work with everybody, do you think it is a good thing? Don't you see a risk of him waging a war even more damaging than the Iraq war? Don't you think he'll get impeached at every corner for his careless behaviors?
That's the kind of questions I'm asking myself, and I'm interested in non partisan perspectives....



I think that Clinton had one undistinguished Senate term and one bad term as Secretary of State. It's difficult to discern how much of the business end at State was Clinton and how much Obama, but it's not at all difficult to discern her treatment of the office as a way to leverage donations to the Clinton Foundation and pad her wealth. It's not at all difficult to discern her cavalier attitude toward communications security, which seems to have been primarily motivated by keeping things secret from posterity (and the FBI) rather than keeping them secret from our enemies.

I do expect gridlock if Clinton becomes president. The difference is that President Obama, despite the white-knuckle hatred and partisanship he's been subjected to, is not a dishonest power broker. The same cannot be said of Hillary Clinton. Congress won't have to dredge up specious reasons to attack President Clinton. She's done their work for them. The emails aren't going away. Neither is pay-for-play. Unlike Benghazi, these are issues with real substance behind them and real corruption at their heart.



Using her office to possibly leverage donations to a charitable organization that has helped millions of people is the worst you have on Clinton? the standard for evil is sooooooo low these days.





The effective term here is POSSIBLY. No proof, no conviction. Just all possibles.

Well, I'm sure that its possible that many RSPers have committed rape. I don't know, but it sure is possible. It kinda requires us all to be in jail, or to be tarnished by this accusation, right?

Now, if that had any juice and energy behind it, due to someone with malicious intent against us, that would lure everyone else down the road of questioning... are they rapists? Could they rape? Oh, better be cautious of them and everything they say.

Many anti-HRC's opponents have been played like a fiddle. It is the currency of the conservative base... they manipulate them so well, it is truly an amazing sight.
 
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here is a a thought, if Clinton got control of both houses and acted like the republicans have and and treated repub voters the same way Trump proposes to do to certain groups , then the repubs would be in armed insurrection.
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Bwian wrote:
But voting for the lesser of three evils will totally change everything!


You could say Johnson is inexperienced. You can say he's unqualified. But I will need you to demonstrate in what fashion he is evil before I will guffaw along with you.
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GameCrossing wrote:
Bwian wrote:
But voting for the lesser of three evils will totally change everything!


You could say Johnson is inexperienced. You can say he's unqualified. But I will need you to demonstrate in what fashion he is evil before I will guffaw along with you.


Yes, painting Johnson or Stein as bad people is unfair. They are just both inexperienced and unqualified for the office. Maybe in eight years that will be different, but now, definitely unqualified.

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darthhugo wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
Bwian wrote:
But voting for the lesser of three evils will totally change everything!


You could say Johnson is inexperienced. You can say he's unqualified. But I will need you to demonstrate in what fashion he is evil before I will guffaw along with you.


Yes, painting Johnson or Stein as bad people is unfair. They are just both inexperienced and unqualified for the office. Maybe in eight years that will be different, but now, definitely unqualified.



This almost feels like a tacit admission that Hillary -is- evil... just more palate-ably evil than Trump
 
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