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A Game of Thrones (First Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: is lannister really the most disadvantaged? rss

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Aron Berge
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Everybody seem to discuss how to help up Lannisters starting position but my impression is that the house winning the least is Tyrell followed by Stark and Lannister.

Isnt the problem that Baratheon and Greyjoy ihas a better position rather than lannister having a weak one?

Of course this site cant be seen as any statistically valid proof but it can help show my point. How are your statistics? http://westeros.rahja.net/index.php?goto=hausstats

I saw someone propose giving the three land powers n extra footman to compensate for Greyjoy and Baratheons extra ship, giving everybody the same starting mustering points. Anyone tried this?
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oystein eker
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There are a few chesslike moves in the beginning to almost finish off Lannister - with no possible countermeasures. Not even an alliance will have good enough bargain to stop this attack. These moves were discovered after print and an official houserule came up to fix it.

I like the different weak and strong factions in the game. It forces weak players to gang up on strong ones from start. Alliances or at least truce in certain de-militarized areas are a must to survive.

If you are playing a weak house and loose early - you have not done your diplomatic homework. Use arguments like: " We most set up a common strong defence to the north. You take area X and I take area Y - with no further force build up. But I have to expand - so keep sea lanes free so I can move south. If not - I have to expand through your territory and we will both be weak and loose the game."

Trying to even out faction by compensation will end up with a lot of discussion and life long playtesting. AGoT is not designed to have even factions. Keep it that way.
 
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Adam McLean
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The problem is that if someone follows the scripted moves for Greyjoy, he will take Lannister out very early. If you have someone playing Greyjoy who doesn't bother trying to remove Lannister then yes, Lannister could end up being a force. Unfortunately, unless there are a couple small changes and/or house rules, then the first moves of the game are always predictable.

So far the best ways I have found (by playing) are (1) The official change of putting Greyjoy in the 5 spot on the King's Court track giving him 0 star orders. (2) This was suggested by someone on the Fantasy Flight forum, don't know if he posts here, that rather than adding a footman to the land players, change the knight for Baratheon and Greyjoy to a footman. This way doesn't add too many units to start, it evens out the mustering points, and allows them to protect their home sea area/island while keeping the same amount of units to march on turn 1. (3) This is a small change I made on my board that my group found to help balance things out. I moved the border of The Golden Sound and Ironman's Bay from in the middle of Riverrun to the border of Riverrun and Seagard. This prevented Greyjoy from being able to march from Pyke into Riverrun or support with his ships there. It gives Lannister a bit more breathing room between them.

Those 3 things seem to work the best for my group, since implementing them, our games have been better balanced but without losing the inherent advantages or disadvantages of each house
 
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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If someone follows the scripted move for Greyjoy, Baratheon and Tyrell should back of Lannister, and Stark should be moving south with due haste. Greyjoy can't fight a two-pronged war. I've seen Greyjoy go against Lannister once (this was myself) and even though I devastated Lannister, I was forcibly ejected from the neck and could never get more than a handful of cities at a time. What follows is a game of Tyrell vs Baratheon in the south, which Baratheon can usually win to win the game, since Stark can't keep him out of the fingers.

Greyjoy going against Lannister seems like the perfect way to hand the game to Baratheon. Greyjoy needs to hold the neck, push north, and maybe reach for the fingers. Strike at Lannister in desperation and only to win. If the person playing Lannister can't agree to this treaty, you need someone wilier playing Lannister.

Despite my tone, this isn't actually the only way to play, I'm sure there are other strategies that work for different groups, but that's my point, this game is all about the group mechanic. I have seen Lannister win or come closer to winning than I've seen Greyjoy. Tyrell, in fact, is our weak man. The game is all in the deal making, and I love it
 
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Adam McLean
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I agree that there needs to be some deal making (and breaking) but I don't like when there are game-long truces between 2 (or more) players, that takes away from the strategy. As far as Tyrell and Baratheon backing off Lannister if Greyjoy goes after him, that is dependant on them not being ruthless. If Lannister is occupied with Greyjoy in the north, Tyrell could easily go after Lannisport, and Baratheon can make it over to Harrenhal. Once Lannister is gone, the board opens up. What essentially happens is that Greyjoy, within a couple turns, has, not including the sea areas he can support from, Pyke, Flint's Finger, Seagard, and Riverrrun (7 mustering points), and has within reasonable reach Lannisport, Harrenhal and Moat Cailin without having to protect the other 4 with units.

That is why we made the change to the sea border. It makes Greyjoy strategize his use of Seagard, doesn't allow him to support or send troops from Pyke direct to Riverrun, and encourages him to deal with Stark and/or move into the Fingers area, possibly meeting up with Baratheon in the Eyrie area. It allows Lannister to be a bit more comfortable in Lannisport and Riverrun, but more freedom to deal with Tyrell and Baratheon.

Anyway you add it up and no matter what adjustments that can be made, the area will always be hotly contested with all those cities and strongholds in such a confined space.
 
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Aron Berge
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I love the game but my opinion is that it would be even better if the chance of winning was less depending on which house you got.
 
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Rob Corn
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Our group has basically stopped playing the 5 player version for that reason (although the change of the sea border is interesting... maybe we'll give that a try). Lannister did manage a win once, though, out of a couple dozen games.

It's either 6 player Clash of Kings or 4 player Storm of Swords. Storm of Swords is seeing some of the 5 player Lannister problems with Stark, however, but that's a different topic.
 
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Adam McLean
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It's funny you say that about Stark on the Storm of Swords board. After a few games of getting the mechanics and strategies under our belt, we were just talking about that after our last game. Lannister too has his own problems on SoS, while he is spread out to capture some early claim, he is spread out sometimes too thin if Greyjoy and Baratheon are aggressive early. He can have little support from his own units. It can be eased a little if Stark keeps Greyjoy occupied, but Stark can fall into the same issues if Baratheon and Greyjoy head toward him instead of Lannister.

So far we have enjoyed 6 players on the base game the best, with the sea border change I made, we found that everyone seems to have an equal chance. Even with 5 players it makes our games much more evenly matched, the people who have played Lannister since the change have all remarked how they didn't feel on the defensive right from the getgo. That's why we tried it and that's why I ended up changing it on the board itself.

If you want me to email a picture of the change, I'd be happy to do so, just let me know.
 
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James Ludlow
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oatesatm wrote:
If you want me to email a picture of the change, I'd be happy to do so, just let me know.


I would really appreciate it if you could upload an image of this to BGG. If you want to avoid moderation, you can upload it to your personal image gallery.

Click "My Geek"
Click "Gallery"
Upload image.

Something like this would likely be appropriate for the AGoT image gallery though.

 
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Adam McLean
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I went ahead and uploaded it to my gallery. I did try previously to have it posted to BBG but they said it was a bit too blurry and already on the website (I think a closeup of the area is on here). I think you can see it just fine.

Thanks for telling me about my gallery, I had no idea I was able to do that. If you have any questions about it, let me know.
 
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Thiago Boaventura
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Haggis wrote:
Our group has basically stopped playing the 5 player version for that reason (although the change of the sea border is interesting... maybe we'll give that a try). Lannister did manage a win once, though, out of a couple dozen games.


My group too. Instead, we have played others maps home made. This game needs a fix. I won't play this game in original map anymore.
 
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