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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » News

Subject: Lantern Festival expansion cancelled rss

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TJ
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-mon...

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This was a very hard decision to make. It comes from a place of utmost respect and dedication to the brand... not common sense or practical business money-making logic.

Everyone is being issued a $45 refund (per pledged lantern festival) via paypal. We are covering the -11% kickstarter fees that we lost from funds collected during the 2012-2013 campaign. If you do not have a paypal account at that email address, you can easily set one up by following the instructions on your refund email from paypal.

WE DO NOT SUPPORT THE SALE OF PLEDGES. If you sold your pledge or bought a pledge from another individual, you must contact them. We can only send the refund to the official email address we have on file.

If you have any issues, need help, would prefer store credit or would simply like us to keep the money and waive your refund, please visit our support page at kingdomdeath.com/support for more information and to contact us.

I was unsatisfied with the expansion. It failed to live up to the Kingdom Death standard. In the future, it is likely that I will create another product that uses the same miniatures but it will not be the Lantern Festival I pitched in the 2012 - 2013 kickstarter. I love Kingdom Death and the sad fact is that we are all stuck with a crazy creator!

WHY!?
There are a lot of reasons. Most importantly, it failed to live up to my expectations.

That’s not a good enough reason!
I agree. I’ll elaborate. It all ties back to the essential experiences that make up Kingdom Death: Monster. Overwhelming odds, tactical strategy, evolution, surprises, accessibility, hard developmental choices and building survivor miniatures. Lantern Festival had some, but NOT all of these things.

It was pitched to EXTEND the current timeline, meaning only the small fraction of players who completed the core game could enjoy it, killing its accessibility. Most of our player base has yet to finish playing all the current expansions, which makes extending the main campaign in the way the Lantern Festival was pitched, a less than ideal choice.

Since there were no armor sets (just the twilight cloak), it led to a significant lack of accomplishment and not much evolution. The game felt incomplete when you weren’t chasing a new armor set or making hard decisions about the best gear you could make from a hand of resources. It left Lantern Festival without that feeling of evolution.

KD:M is a series of hard-fought, uphill climbs and moments of respite to recover or push the development of your settlement. Imagine a titan’s staircase. Your gaming group is trying to tackle it. After a vertical climb, you get an easier horizontal walk to recovery and start to plan the next vertical challenge. Lantern Festival lacked those horizontal moments, wherein you made major developmental choices that would affect the overall outcome.

Without all those elements in concert, it could never be a proper encore to the spectacular performance of KD:M.

To be a proper encore It would need to be more like a new core set, with the focus of the settlement shifted to be more macro, dealing with a developing town instead of a small settlement. Since that is not what was pitched, nor is it what we worked toward on its first development cycle, I am refunding everyone instead of releasing content I can’t stand behind. The realization of what this particular part of the Kingdom Death world needed to be, was simply to large in scope for the funds that were raised to create it.

Lastly, it was also just plain crazy to write a game extension BEFORE the game and its tons of expansions were in the hands of players playing the game.

Call it vanity, creator responsibility (or lack thereof), or proof of my utmost respect for our fans and player base. This was a very hard (and very expensive) decision to make. I could have just put something “all-right” out and kept the money.

When playing it safe, pulling punches and putting out content that doesn’t make me pee a little with excitement becomes the norm. I’ll let you know to the tune of “Sellout” by Reel Big Fish, silly trumpets and all. I’ll “skank” my way over to the bank and slam dunk the deposit box!
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Team Ski
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Wow, that sucks!!!!!!! shake
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M. L.
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Yeah - not what I expected at all. Pretty crappy overall. I understand his reasoning, but it's still quite disappointing. At least I got my refund, I guess.
 
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The refund was at least hassle free. Was the plastic for the Lantern Festival ever shown? I wonder if it's soon to be in the store for a fair bit more $ than was just refunded or if they held off production on it. Maybe they'll turn up as part of the new kickstarter.
 
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Steve Lamx
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I was not part of kick starter but I have been an adapter of KD:M and all expansions in retail. Sad to hear this didn't live up to his high expectations but being someone that holds their own work up to a magnifying glass I understand the inner battle he must of had. Can't wait for KS:2 and to see where those lantern fest minis turn up in the future.
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Kostas K.
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Well, that's an interesting way to increase faith amongst your fanbase right before the launch of a new kickstarter...

Lantern Festival was a very special expansion, since it not only offered new content but also the promise of continuing the story, something sorely needed given the unsatisfying ending of the main story in the base game.
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Demian
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Given that Adam is who he is, not surprised by the cancellation. When I caught up with him at GenCon, we discussed the Lantern Festival briefly. He gave me the impression that he wasn’t happy with the way it currently tacked on to the end of the core game and was working on revisions.

Will be missing the King and Scribe models though. Looking forward to them and the content when they’re ready.
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I'm all with Kostas on this one. Seems like the KS2 ate Lantern Festival, as they all may be aware of the fact that the development of Lantern Festival will stall while fulfilling the next big KS.
Not quite sure what to think yet, besides feeling pretty sad there will be no extension of the campaigns it feels rushed (like finally getting rid of the old Kickstarter before new one starts)... And I would not be surprised to see the concept come to life one day, maybe not with a 45$ price tag...
Brave move, though.
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JAn
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As someone who is jumping on late and very much looking forward to the upcoming Kickstarter, this kind of commitment to quality only has me more excited. It's understandably disappointing for everyone who pledged, but I this kind of decision furthers the feeling that this game really is a "vision" and unique in today's market.
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I applaud this decision. It is as honest as it gets, and it is probably a decision much harder to take than just moving forward with a sub-par expansion just to comply and make some more cash.

Adam Poots is telling all of us that he won't create anything that doesn't match the highest quality requirements, and that is something to commend. In the long term we will probably understand this move better.

What will he have prepared for KS2?

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I have a feeling we will see a completely repriced Lattern Festival in KS2. Maybe with a different name.

Here is your $45. Now give me 200$ for "Hail the King" expansions that is a new expansion that extends the game featuring King, Scribe and some other minis. arrrh
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I don't buy it. Sorry.

You advertise the expansion for so long, making us drool about it, and you wait until 2 weeks before the next kickstarter to reveal that you will not deliver + we get a refund right away.
That's convenient.
That's business 101: change your weakness into a strength.
Don't deliver, get rid of a promise AND show how reliable and trustworthy you are at the same time. That's clever.

For me, they knew that for a long time and waited the last minute to refund in order to show people how "honest" they are.
Which is a big plus for the next KS (just read the comments and see how it worked like a charm).

I'm ok with the decision but not with the timing.
For me, it means that it seems spontaneous but that it's not.
And I hate to be played with like that.

He HAD to get rid of that expansion before the next Kickstarter so he KNEW that it would not see the day.
He didn't discover that fact today or last week or not even 4 months ago.
Now that I read this "letter", the "TBD 5 Nov" of the last update bugs me a lot because at that time he HAD TO know it wasn't true.

I'm sorry guys. I don't like the manoeuvre.
The strange mix of sentimentality and commerce is not my thing.
This kind of letter makes me feel like I am his girlfriend or something.
I'm not. I'm a client. So talk to me accordingly because the next KS will deal with my money, not with my feelings anyway.

To the one talking about a possible Lantern festival in the future: how could he do that as he would be forced to make a major expansion that would HAVE TO cost 45$. Any dollar above and people will consider this as a scam.
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JAn
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The funny thing is that you are talking like a spurned g/f. If you're a true consumer you just want the product or your original investment back. Nothing more, nothing less; no letters, no excuses. Money talks, bullshit walks.

When I really don't care about a sale gone wrong, I don't write half a dozen paragraphs about it.

Stay strong. BGG is here for you, man.
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Don't spin it.
Just read.
I made it easy for you because it's in bold characters.
I'm ok with the decision.
What I'm not ok with is the timing and the bullshit.
If you don't agree that's fine and we'll agree to disagree but just don't twist my words to make them fit your opinion.
That would be a shitty move.
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Krzysztof RabidBlackDog
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baylock wrote:
a major expansion that would HAVE TO cost 45$


That's really funny
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baylock wrote:

I made it easy for you because it's in bold characters.
I'm ok with the decision.


When I'm okay with a decision I don't keep going on about just how okay with the decision I am.

One heart!
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Magic Pink
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rakehell wrote:
The funny thing is that you are talking like a spurned g/f. If you're a true consumer you just want the product or your original investment back. Nothing more, nothing less; no letters, no excuses. Money talks, bullshit walks.

When I really don't care about a sale gone wrong, I don't write half a dozen paragraphs about it.

Stay strong. BGG is here for you, man.


YEAH THEM BITCHES IS CRAZY MIRITE

thank god there's real men around to show them how to act, right brah?

Your entire post is repulsive. And true consumer? Jesus, seriously?
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baylock wrote:
I don't buy it. Sorry.

You advertise the expansion for so long, making us drool about it, and you wait until 2 weeks before the next kickstarter to reveal that you will not deliver + we get a refund right away.
That's convenient.
That's business 101: change your weakness into a strength.
Don't deliver, get rid of a promise AND show how reliable and trustworthy you are at the same time. That's clever.

For me, they knew that for a long time and waited the last minute to refund in order to show people how "honest" they are.
Which is a big plus for the next KS (just read the comments and see how it worked like a charm).

I'm ok with the decision but not with the timing.
For me, it means that it seems spontaneous but that it's not.
And I hate to be played with like that.

He HAD to get rid of that expansion before the next Kickstarter so he KNEW that it would not see the day.
He didn't discover that fact today or last week or not even 4 months ago.
Now that I read this "letter", the "TBD 5 Nov" of the last update bugs me a lot because at that time he HAD TO know it wasn't true.

I'm sorry guys. I don't like the manoeuvre.
The strange mix of sentimentality and commerce is not my thing.
This kind of letter makes me feel like I am his girlfriend or something.
I'm not. I'm a client. So talk to me accordingly because the next KS will deal with my money, not with my feelings anyway.

To the one talking about a possible Lantern festival in the future: how could he do that as he would be forced to make a major expansion that would HAVE TO cost 45$. Any dollar above and people will consider this as a scam.


I agree, this is 100% bullshit.
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I think Baylock is right. It was a business and shameless decision really calculated to play on emotions of backers.

I think it was because the expansion was too expensive for a $45 production and he would bleed money, but he will definitely resell it to us at some point with a more resonable mark-up.

Since not one of us really has any information about it, it is really easy to reuse a LOT of stuff (mechanics, cards, ideas) produced during its development, change some minis (maybe not: everyone still comments, that they want a king, so we basically we beg for it), then rename the whole thing and put it on new kickstarter for triple the amount of money.

Why not? Makes sense. Here is your $45, now give me back $150 for this expansion that is Sooooo not Latern Festival.

And giving back $45 is not fine after what? 3 years?
Damn - I tell you what! I would really love to $45 from 10 000 people for years, put them into the bank account and then after three years take the interests and give the money back to the those who gave it to me. That is like 50-60k of interests easily.

Anyway I don't want to feel like this post was written by an angry kid, so yeah: I'm also ok with the fact that Poots discarded the expansion.

It is not like I want KD to go bankrupt because he made a wrong decision pricing the LF 3 years ago when he didn't know what he was doing.

But it would be more honest for me to say- I'm sorry I fucked up, I will not try to cover it with a PR story about how sincere creator I am!

I feel like he could have said the truth a lot earlier (I would have snatched that resin grandmother from ebay if I knew I don't need to save money for Lattern Festival angry) and I think he should have given this lousy (actualy it's cool modest) t-shirt for free to every backer that waited for the LF for so long + refund the money. Or refund the money and give some store credit on top of it. I don't know. Anything.

Anyway I'm not going to be mad too long. And I will probably shower him with money anyway during new KS. In the end I think he really committed to creating something really cool and he probably f**ked a lot on the way but also learned a lot and I wish him all the best as I never thought that being as old as I am I will find a new hobby that will excite me as much as KD.

I just hope that opinions like mine would make him consider how to improve communication next time as customer service and communications is something this brand needs to improve a lot! Just look at this update it is not even on www (nor the one before), facebook or newsletter.



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Magic Pink wrote:
Jesus, seriously?


No, obvs Poe's Law...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I have much respect Poots decision and his stand on delivering quality. The way how the wait and hype for this big announcement for the 5th of November was handled left much to be desired though. Although it was not entirely Poots' words to create so much anticipation. It was the hype within the KDM-community. The hardcore KDM-addicts were looking for news on the the grand finale of KDM core campaign. A proper end in the form of the Lantern Festival. Especially in the last few days the hype for this announcement got real.

I hope Adam will be able to intervene and counter the hype to manage people's expectations when it comes to KDM announcements. The thing is that sometimes great content is put on the shop without any announcement and now we finally got an announcement it ends with a disappointment. Ofcourse this decision by Adam is the right one, but there is not much disclosure on the fact if there will be any form of further endgame content.

So I wonder if we will see changes to the core campaign and if we will see the scrybe and the festival in some form in a future expansion. (The miniatures of both look amazing.)

Quote:
KD:M Kickstarter 2
On November 25th, Black Friday. We will be launching our 2nd Kingdom Death: Monster campaign. The focus of the campaign will start on a reprint of the sold out Kingdom Death: Monster core set with an 1.4 ruleset. (Current version of the game is 1.31). An upgrade pack with the rulebook and updated cards will be available for existing fans.

Beyond that my lips are sealed. Except for this tiny teaser of course.

The lesson I learned today with the lantern festival is that I should lower my expectations of what will be announced within 3 weeks. (Since we are all basically spoiled with all current awesome(!) content.)

One more thing to add:
The news on the card pack is great! Looking forward to implement this and the promo miniatures somewhere in 2017.
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You guys know you can disagree with Baylock and not be condescending about it, right? It really doesn't help get your points across. I don't agree with him on everything but I think Adam could have said months ago that the expansion was in jeopardy based on the reasons that were provided. Instead, the lack of information did nothing but generate hype for the backers and consumers. Pretty disappointing and unnecessary. Although, I think he did the right thing by giving money back to the backers. That's unheard of from my experiences with KS.
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kurczaczekx wrote:

Damn - I tell you what! I would really love to $45 from 10 000 people for years, put them into the bank account and then after three years take the interests and give the money back to the those who gave it to me. That is like 50-60k of interests easily.


I think you have an inflated idea about interest rates on savings accounts if you think those would generate more interest than the 11-12% that Kickstarter took initially.



That being said, it's a bummer, but I'm glad he didn't just put out something half-baked. The consistent quality of KDM is what makes it so great.

Maybe this does mean that he'll expand it in to something huge and make that a bigger expansion, and if so, so be it. I'd rather have a great expansion and pay $150 bucks for it than a "meh" expansion I paid $45 for (or more, if you weren't original backer, like I wasn't.)
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TJ
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I would be surprised if he cancelled it because it was going to be too expensive to produce, or he was looking for an easy buck. He didn't do that with any other the other expansions, and likely he would have just recovered the cost by making the retail version really expensive. That's what he's done with the core game and other expansions.

He's been very tight-lipped about Lantern Festival since the first wave of expansions came out, has said in the past that he hasn't been happy with how LF has been shaping up, and that it would require a major redo. We interpreted this as meaning "Lantern Festival is going to be the most epic expansion ever!", when in reality it probably should have been a red flag. I suspect that he spent the spring/summer working on it, but couldn't come up with something that he was satisfied with, and we know he's a perfectionist. Also keep in mind that all the time he wasted on LF is effectively time he could have been working on other projects, so that's time/money lost for him as well.

I suspect that Adam didn't come to this decision lightly. He probably knew this wasn't going to happen in September/October, not sure why he waited until just now to say it, perhaps he was waiting on other materials (painting guides, digital artbooks, t-shirts) to post his final KS1 update. I would have preferred if he had just cancelled it back in February rather than get our hopes up, but I still have like 8 expansions worth of content for KD:M I haven't even touched yet, I can't act like I'm starving for new content just yet.
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Brian C
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I agree, the timing is suspicious.

"Here's your refund, so you can put it right back into the upcoming KS. And not at that ridiculous discount you were getting, either."

Lost some goodwill with me through this one, Poots. And now the future of your game is less bright. I would have preferred you tell us that the Lantern Festival will be taking a back seat to the KS, and that you'd get to it after. Even if that took a few more years.

Now you can't come back to the Lantern Festival, at all, or we are gonna be on your ass like white on rice.

Sucks. The whole thing sucks.
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