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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » General

Subject: RIP Lantern Festival...cancelled. rss

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Hugh Jorgan
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Really shite news, but what can you do?

I agree that a blatantly underwhelming release for something so anticipated would inexcusable, but damn, I wasn't ready for a cancellation announcement, at least postponed.

If it means waiting, so be it, I'm not getting bored of KD and I still have 70% of my minis to paint and 5 untouched expansions. However, I do think KD needs a 'game changer' expansion in the future; I still think a dungeon crawler augmentation of the hunt phase is the way to go, or perhaps interaction between settlements as was the plan for LF.

Redeem yourself with some fresh expansion announcements on the 25th

 
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Jeff White
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Well, I guess that wraps up the Kickstarter then. I'll give him credit for not pushing out something he was unhappy with though. I had high hopes for an awesome expansion.
 
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Eric Randolph
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Without a doubt a huge bummer, but it's definitely a tough thing to just outright cancel an expansion. He's probably painfully aware of the backlash he'll get.
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Alessio Massuoli
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why cancelled?
I just did not receive an update... was this an update only Kickstarter backers received (I'm not a ks backer), or are you just being melodramatic because nothing happened?
 
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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Ugh... That blows

Props to Adam for being a stand up guy and refunding the pledge.
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Alessio Massuoli
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OK, I checked the news (wasn't in my feed)

OK, too bad, but it would have been worse to spend $200 or who knows how much on a lousy expansion.
 
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S W
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I've got nothing but respect for this decision.

If lantern festival had appeared on the store yesterday, at almost any price, I would have ordered it without even reading the description. I've spent more time, and more money, on KD:M than any other game be far since it came out, and this is because Poots delivers a totally different experience, a totally different level of quality, to anything else out there.

For KD:M to release an "OK" expansion, to change the game so it didn't *feel* like KD:M, would have been devastating to that. The Kickstarter had put severe constraints on the cost and scope of what could be done, and I find it really difficult to see how it could have been achieved.

Hopefully, another expansion using the same models will be on it's way soon; we'll have to see if there is anything sneaky in the kickstarter
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Peter Bowie
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Yay! Less money to invest next Kickstarter. I mean... I'm sorry for your loss.

It's a pretty classy move though. The gameplay doesn't adhere to Poots' standard of quality, refunds abound. Hopefully we'll get a retool of it in the future - much better than getting a subpar version now.
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Siseph wrote:
I've got nothing but respect for this decision.

If lantern festival had appeared on the store yesterday, at almost any price, I would have ordered it without even reading the description. I've spent more time, and more money, on KD:M than any other game be far since it came out, and this is because Poots delivers a totally different experience, a totally different level of quality, to anything else out there.

For KD:M to release an "OK" expansion, to change the game so it didn't *feel* like KD:M, would have been devastating to that. The Kickstarter had put severe constraints on the cost and scope of what could be done, and I find it really difficult to see how it could have been achieved.

Hopefully, another expansion using the same models will be on it's way soon; we'll have to see if there is anything sneaky in the kickstarter


Agreed. I sincerely hope that this commitment with top-notch quality stays with KD:M forever.

It's a pity that it had to end this way, but I still hope for something really special to come with the KS.

In the long run we will all appreciate this outstanding act of honesty because it is just another proof of Adam Poot's personal commitment with providing only content that stands above the highest standards, and also proves that this man is made of a different material. These are the things that make me love KD:M. There is nothing even close out there, and it seems that Adam Poots will do his best to keep it like that, for what I truly thank him.

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Stuart Martyn
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Though I can't fault the reasoning, it's a terrible shame; I was very much hoping to bring out some of my old favourite survivors for another bite of the apple!

One can't help but notice the phrasing, though; 'To be a proper encore It would need to be more like a new core set, with the focus of the settlement shifted to be more macro, dealing with a developing town instead of a small settlement. Since that is not what was pitched, nor is it what we worked toward on its first development cycle, I am refunding everyone instead of releasing content I can’t stand behind. The realization of what this particular part of the Kingdom Death world needed to be, was simply too large in scope for the funds that were raised to create it.'

I think, perhaps, we can say... The Lantern Festival is dead. Long live the Lantern Festival. But only the KS will tell.

What will become of the King and Scribe, I wonder? New Nemesis expansions? Perhaps even an expansion that swaps either of them for the Watcher? That'd be a tempting one! Or perhaps we wait for the 'Town' expansion.
 
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Nicola Pertici
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Quote:
it is likely that I will create another product that uses the same miniatures

That's all I wanted to know! Let's just wait nov 25th
 
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Nerds call me
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Aw, that sucks. I can respect his decision from a business perspective but I was really looking forward to the King. It's such a great mini that I hope he finds a place for it in KDM as a Watcher replacement or something. I really hope the KS bring some new expansions to the table for those of us who have owned and played KDM for over a year now. But this announcement really makes me think we won't be seeing a lot of new content outside of the 1.4 update.
 
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Enkidu Ur
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TheEremite wrote:
Though I can't fault the reasoning, it's a terrible shame; I was very much hoping to bring out some of my old favourite survivors for another bite of the apple!

One can't help but notice the phrasing, though; 'To be a proper encore It would need to be more like a new core set, with the focus of the settlement shifted to be more macro, dealing with a developing town instead of a small settlement. Since that is not what was pitched, nor is it what we worked toward on its first development cycle, I am refunding everyone instead of releasing content I can’t stand behind. The realization of what this particular part of the Kingdom Death world needed to be, was simply too large in scope for the funds that were raised to create it.'



So it's much less about quality control than about being economical. Can't blame the man tooooo much, he has to ruin a business after all, I am sure he can't take another Dragon King to burn away his profit.

But damn, it feels kinda shitty to be an original backer of the lantern festival but not the Dragon King.
The King was one of my most favorite miniatures after all.

Edit: lol, run a business of course...nice Freudian slip
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Christian Koch
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This were not the best news to wake up to. But now, half a day later I think the decision is okay. I understand the reasons Adam Poots had and somehow I feel relieved with that. The game is complete for now and I'm looking forward to the new Kickstarter which will surely be full of interesting content. Time to paint everything and play. Just play the base game, all the expansions and additional campaigns.

Kingdom Death reached what no game did before: For almost one year now I'm totally exited and it lost nothing of its initial fascination when I first saw it last year at a friend's house. I hope Poots keeps this high standards and if it means to sacrifice an expansion, it has to be done.
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Phoenix Butthole Hands
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Gilgamesh1914 wrote:
TheEremite wrote:
Though I can't fault the reasoning, it's a terrible shame; I was very much hoping to bring out some of my old favourite survivors for another bite of the apple!

One can't help but notice the phrasing, though; 'To be a proper encore It would need to be more like a new core set, with the focus of the settlement shifted to be more macro, dealing with a developing town instead of a small settlement. Since that is not what was pitched, nor is it what we worked toward on its first development cycle, I am refunding everyone instead of releasing content I can’t stand behind. The realization of what this particular part of the Kingdom Death world needed to be, was simply too large in scope for the funds that were raised to create it.'



So it's much less about quality control than about being economical. Can't blame the man tooooo much, he has to ruin a business after all, I am sure he can't take another Dragon King to burn away his profit.

But damn, it feels kinda shitty to be an original backer of the lantern festival but not the Dragon King.
The King was one of my most favorite miniatures after all.

Edit: lol, run a business of course...nice Freudian slip


Well, he all but said the decision was more about quality than business. Given the history I doubt he would have backed out if he thought the expansion was going to be what he had hoped.

The thing is, he implies that the Lantern Festival can't be an expansion anymore, at least not the way it was pitched. His statement that it would be too large in scope to do it justice and therefore financially unviable doesn't really apply to the expansion from the Kickstarter. I mean, I don't doubt he's concerned about screwing the company over financially by putting out the Lantern Festival completely reworked, but honestly he is stating:

[It would be] more like a new core set... too large in scope for the funds that were raised to create it

While it isn't great that he cancelled the expansion, he's not saying that he cancelled it because of the money, but because he wants to make it a new base game. Which is exciting.
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jpancier wrote:
Gilgamesh1914 wrote:
TheEremite wrote:
Though I can't fault the reasoning, it's a terrible shame; I was very much hoping to bring out some of my old favourite survivors for another bite of the apple!

One can't help but notice the phrasing, though; 'To be a proper encore It would need to be more like a new core set, with the focus of the settlement shifted to be more macro, dealing with a developing town instead of a small settlement. Since that is not what was pitched, nor is it what we worked toward on its first development cycle, I am refunding everyone instead of releasing content I can’t stand behind. The realization of what this particular part of the Kingdom Death world needed to be, was simply too large in scope for the funds that were raised to create it.'



So it's much less about quality control than about being economical. Can't blame the man tooooo much, he has to ruin a business after all, I am sure he can't take another Dragon King to burn away his profit.

But damn, it feels kinda shitty to be an original backer of the lantern festival but not the Dragon King.
The King was one of my most favorite miniatures after all.

Edit: lol, run a business of course...nice Freudian slip


Well, he all but said the decision was more about quality than business. Given the history I doubt he would have backed out if he thought the expansion was going to be what he had hoped.

The thing is, he implies that the Lantern Festival can't be an expansion anymore, at least not the way it was pitched. His statement that it would be too large in scope to do it justice and therefore financially unviable doesn't really apply to the expansion from the Kickstarter. I mean, I don't doubt he's concerned about screwing the company over financially by putting out the Lantern Festival completely reworked, but honestly he is stating:

[It would be] more like a new core set... too large in scope for the funds that were raised to create it

While it isn't great that he cancelled the expansion, he's not saying that he cancelled it because of the money, but because he wants to make it a new base game. Which is exciting.


I can't understand people's initial feelings today. But I would have everyone take a deep breath, stop and consider the whole KD:M project, -especially the original KS backers.

I believe it's plain unfair and ungrateful to make some of the accusations that have been made today, or to imply certain things concerning the "obscure motives" that might have led Poots to make this decision to cancel the LF.

After all that he has delivered people still lapidate him, literally. That attitude shows a blatant lack of confidence on the reasons that he has explained to justify the cancellation. Yet these lapidators will be the first ones to try to grab an EB on Nov 25th. Please.





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Phoenix Butthole Hands
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Shu1984 wrote:


I can't understand people's initial feelings today. But I would have everyone take a deep breath, stop and consider the whole KD:M project, -especially the original KS backers.

I believe it's plain unfair and ungrateful to make some of the accusations that have been made today, or to imply certain things concerning the "obscure motives" that might have led Poots to make this decision to cancel the LF.

After all that he has delivered people still lapidate him, literally. That attitude shows a blatant lack of confidence on the reasons that he has explained to justify the cancellation. Yet these lapidators will be the first ones to try to grab an EB on Nov 25th. Please.



My sentiments summed up well. I'm actually surprised at how little vitriol there is compared to other games. This is the kind of shit he talks about in the rest of the announcement and it obviously eats him up to hear this kind of response. It's funny to think that people who backed the Kickstarter would want him to put out something sub par, at a financial loss that could potentially sink the company. If you didn't want the company to be successful then you should rethink using Kickstarter. And if you think that developers dont spend years working 12 hour days and eating ramen to make their project happen, you belong on the short bus.
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Sammy
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I'm happy to hear the models will still be used.
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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I bought the shirt "they await the king"

well, the way I see it, the final draft of the lantern festival seems to have been 10 regular years or so, with the king and great game hunters as nemeses and the scribe as final boss. Plus, "town something" and maybe "invade other supplements something". No new resources or gear (again, where do I craft those white dragon bracers?), just, I suppose, keep chasing L3s, starve somewhere in the hunts, craft more expensive sets. And the creator did not like it. Cancelling was a good call, even if not the one I'd like to hear. I don't want to spend top money on a bad game.

Now, if you look at these four years as an extended Kickstarter (that was about fulfilled two days ago), you can say that you paid and waited for something that was not delivered. I won't judge your lifestyle, but since you got refunded at a loss, you should just complain about the delusion of your expectations... that, I can understand (four years you have been told "wait, it's going to be great" then, since a new campaign is about to start, you get "you know what? never mind, I won't do that anymore".

this is bad, but you can buckle up, I guess. personally, I will judge this retroactively when next expansions come out. If they are bad, these were only empty excuses, otherwise this was, once again, the right call.

oh, and if you bought the pledge or sold it? well, we are not talking about a good game now, just about money changing hands. you will figure a way to settle this.

Of course, I want a king and a scribe expansions (and are those big game hunters )
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Enkidu Ur
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jpancier wrote:
Gilgamesh1914 wrote:
[q="TheEremite"]Though I can't fault the reasoning, it's a terrible shame; I was very much hoping to bring out some of my old favourite survivors for another bite of the apple!

One can't help but notice the phrasing, though; 'To be a proper encore It would need to be more like a new core set, with the focus of the settlement shifted to be more macro, dealing with a developing town instead of a small settlement. Since that is not what was pitched, nor is it what we worked toward on its first development cycle, I am refunding everyone instead of releasing content I can’t stand behind. The realization of what this particular part of the Kingdom Death world needed to be, was simply too large in scope for the funds that were raised to create it.'





[It would be] more like a new core set... too large in scope for the funds that were raised to create it

While it isn't great that he cancelled the expansion, he's not saying that he cancelled it because of the money, but because he wants to make it a new base game. Which is exciting.


But that is exactly what he was saying. He is doing it, not because the rules or manufacture of the miniatures run into unsolveable technical problems, but because it would be uneconomical to produce it with the current vision in mind.
If you look at the king and scribe alone, their miniatures are worth way more than 45 bucks. He already took a blow for the dragon king, which is admireable, I understand he won't tank his company, which not only entangles him, but his family, employees etc.

And make no mistake here, I am not dishing out 'obscure accusations' against Poots. He has literally admitted that it is a problem to create with the current funds, not that there is an inherent problem to produce it at all.

So even if the slightly PR-ish talk of the unrelenting developper and his uncompromised vision holds a good portion of truth (which it does, he has shown that time and time again), the logical operative point here is economical concerns.It is not that Poots couldn't still realize his fleshed out vision, but produce it at a slight or big loss in favor of the loyality of the backers as he did with Dragon King and some other expansions.

As I stated above, I completely understand his decision from a business and even a personal point of view, but let's call a square a square here and get real. You'd really have to think that Poots was some kind of purely altruistic saint, if you feel that the points I raised, are an attack on his reputation. He is an entrepreneur and more idealistic than most, but still an entrepreneur.
 
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Gilgamesh1914 wrote:
jpancier wrote:
Gilgamesh1914 wrote:
[q="TheEremite"]Though I can't fault the reasoning, it's a terrible shame; I was very much hoping to bring out some of my old favourite survivors for another bite of the apple!

One can't help but notice the phrasing, though; 'To be a proper encore It would need to be more like a new core set, with the focus of the settlement shifted to be more macro, dealing with a developing town instead of a small settlement. Since that is not what was pitched, nor is it what we worked toward on its first development cycle, I am refunding everyone instead of releasing content I can’t stand behind. The realization of what this particular part of the Kingdom Death world needed to be, was simply too large in scope for the funds that were raised to create it.'




[It would be] more like a new core set... too large in scope for the funds that were raised to create it

While it isn't great that he cancelled the expansion, he's not saying that he cancelled it because of the money, but because he wants to make it a new base game. Which is exciting.


But that is exactly what he was saying. He is doing it, not because the rules or manufacture of the miniatures run into unsolveable technical problems, but because it would be uneconomical to produce it with the current vision in mind.
If you look at the king and scribe alone, their miniatures are worth way more than 45 bucks. He already took a blow for the dragon king, which is admireable, I understand he won't tank his company, which not only entangles him, but his family, employees etc.

And make no mistake here, I am not dishing out 'obscure accusations' against Poots. He has literally admitted that it is a problem to create with the current funds, not that there is an inherent problem to produce it at all.

So even if the slightly PR-ish talk of the unrelenting developper and his uncompromised vision holds a good portion of truth (which it does, he has shown that time and time again), the logical operative point here is economical concerns.It is not that Poots couldn't still realize his fleshed out vision, but produce it at a slight or big loss in favor of the loyality of the backers as he did with Dragon King and some other expansions.

As I stated above, I completely understand his decision from a business and even a personal point of view, but let's call a square a square here and get real. You'd really have to think that Poots was some kind of purely altruistic saint, if you feel that the points I raised, are an attack on his reputation. He is an entrepreneur and more idealistic than most, but still an entrepreneur.


Then the situation is clear, provided that what you state is correct (I am not sure that the $$ is the main or only reason though): He had made the KS numbers wrong. And we know that by just comparing the KS pricetags to the retail prices, which go 5x (e.g. Dragon King from $30 to $150). And he just can't afford to produce and deliver the LF he wants to create at $45 (less the KS fees).

In view of the above, what would you consider the right move?

(i) lapidate and squeeze him out of his commitment to deliver the LF as promised and probably jeopardise the future of the KDM franchise,

(ii) make him deliver a low-cost mediocre LF expansion (which would be harshly criticised after all what he said about it), or

(iii) get the refund, take a deep breath, think twice and admit that even though this is bs and a frustrating blow, he has already given his backers so much that not forcing him into (i) or (ii) can be acceptable. Move forward and expect the best of the KS2.

You call, guys. I go with (iii) hands down.







 
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Shu1984 wrote:

In view of the above, what would you consider the right move?

(i) lapidate and squeeze him out of his commitment to deliver the LF as promised and probably jeopardise the future of the KDM franchise,

(ii) make him deliver a low-cost mediocre LF expansion (which would be harshly criticised after all what he said about it), or

(iii) get the refund, take a deep breath, think twice and admit that even though this is bs and a frustrating blow, he has already given his backers so much that not forcing him into (i) or (ii) can be acceptable. Move forward and expect the best of the KS2.

You call, guys. I go with (iii) hands down.



(iv) = (iii) + bitch about it, because your really wanted the Latern Festival and were not a backer so you can't even get a refund out of it
 
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I thought that I made myself quite clear, that I don't consider (i) the right move. I'd really appreciate if you actually read the posts of your opponents, instead of strawmanning them out of unconditional Poots-praise.
From all the posts I read here in this thread, I can't find a single one I'd label as the vicious bitching you claim to oppose.
Quite the contrary, most posts are pretty well balanced and raise reasonable points with a predominantly positive conclusion to the project.

Personally, I think it would have been a nice move if there was at least the option of a compromise between ii and iii. Maybe offer the possibility to choose between a normal refund or the receipt of the miniatures alone, which could hypothetically be expanded by buying the game materials, once they are produced. Or maybe a discount on the expansion once it comes into existence etc...maybe even only a t-shirt voucher for the king would have done. Something

Like this, it just feels pretty disappointing and shallow to get nothing in return for your trust after all these years of patience. But as I said, that's life businesses don't run on nice ideas and love and cuts have to be made. Overall I think that kingdom death as a company has quite a high level of costumer loyality, but I just can't sing into the choir and praise Poots for how this singular issue was handled.

As understandable and reasonable as his decision might be, let's not call it high minded, idealistic perfectionism, but rather what it is: A planning error on his side. Which is fine, because all humans make mistakes.
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Gilgamesh1914 wrote:
I'd really appreciate if you actually read the posts of your opponents, instead of strawmanning them out of unconditional Poots-praise.


Opponents? Come on, guys...
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People who oppose your arguments in a discussion are your opponents. That's not synonymous for enemy of course.

I think it is the right term, but I might not always hit the perfect tone accidently, since my first language is German. So please keep that in mind.
 
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