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Codex: Card-Time Strategy – Deluxe Set» Forums » Rules

Subject: Order of effects upon unit death rss

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Chris Franka
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There is a unit that causes the opposing player to discard a random card when that unit causes another unit to die (I can't remember which unit actually has this power at the moment).
If it kills a unit patrolling in the Technician slot (Dies: +1 Card), does the opposing player draw his patrolling bonus card before or after being forced to discard a random card?
We ruled that both effects are arguably simultaneous so the active (attacking) player could choose the order of resolution. But I'm curious if there's an actual order of resolving this supported by rules or rulings.
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Jason Reid
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bigtex01 wrote:
There is a unit that causes the opposing player to discard a random card when that unit causes another unit to die (I can't remember which unit actually has this power at the moment).
If it kills a unit patrolling in the Technician slot (Dies: +1 Card), does the opposing player draw his patrolling bonus card before or after being forced to discard a random card?
We ruled that both effects are arguably simultaneous so the active (attacking) player could choose the order of resolution. But I'm curious if there's an actual order of resolving this supported by rules or rulings.


I feel like I know every card at this point but I can't think of one that has that effect.

BUT I do know that, e.g. if a Gunpoint Taxman (which steals a gold) kills a patroller in the Scavenger slot (which awards the defender a gold), the attacker can sequence the results of the attack such that the Taxman steals the Scavenger gold (like if the defender didn't have a gold to begin with).

So it sounds like attacker's choice, but it might depend specifically on what the attacking unit says (again I can't think of a unit with this ability offhand).
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Robert Ramirez
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Chris, i'm pretty sure it was this spell.
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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When 2 effect trigger at the same time, the active player decide the order. Simple as that.
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Andrew Hauge
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Wildhorn wrote:
When 2 effect trigger at the same time, the active player decide the order. Simple as that.

Yeah, and since both effects do occur simultaneously (as noted for Gunpoint Taxman), this applies here.

Note that unless you have some idea of what's in your opponent's hand, you probably don't have much information to go off of when choosing the order of these operations, although whether the draw will reshuffle their discard pile might affect that.
 
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Alex Churchill
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CarpeGuitarrem wrote:
Wildhorn wrote:
When 2 effect trigger at the same time, the active player decide the order. Simple as that.

Yeah, and since both effects do occur simultaneously (as noted for Gunpoint Taxman), this applies here.
Is it that simple?
If this was a unit fight (as in Gunpoint Taxman), sure, that makes sense.

But as a spell's effect... my intuition (based on MtG, where spell resolution is basically* atomic) would be that the damage is dealt, then (because there's no state-based actions in Codex) the creature immediately dies, you carry on processing the spell so the controller discards; and then once the spell is done and in the discard pile, other things that triggered can happen, such as the Technician draw.

The rulebook... hmm, does say
rules wrote:
A triggered ability (such as “Whenever you attack, your units get +1/+1”) might
kick in during another action

So I think my MtG intuition is probably wrong in this case. Ah well.


*: In MtG, triggered abilities ("When such-and-such dies...") can't take effect during a spell's resolution. Replacement effects ("If so-and-so would die, instead return it to owner's hand") can modify what happens during a spell's resolution, though.

Of course, in MtG there's a timing difference between "Destroy target creature. Its controller discards a card." and "Deal 3 damage to target creature. Its controller discards a card." In the first case, the creature is gone before the discard happens, but in the second case the creature is sitting around with lethal damage waiting for the spell to finish so that state-based actions can kill it. But Codex has no concept of state-based actions, so I'm fairly sure units can die from damage in the middle of a spell or ability.
 
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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Codex is not MtG.
 
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Alex Churchill
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Wildhorn wrote:
Codex is not MtG.
While this is obviously true, it does take a lot of its terminology, structure and default assumptions from MtG. In not all, but many areas, Codex rules can be treated as "like MtG unless otherwise stated".
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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alextfish wrote:
Wildhorn wrote:
Codex is not MtG.
While this is obviously true, it does take a lot of its terminology, structure and default assumptions from MtG. In not all, but many areas, Codex rules can be treated as "like MtG unless otherwise stated".


Actually, there is not much terminology from MtG into it, could you name me some (beside Flying and Legendary). The structure is nothing like MtG. So you should not assume anything works like in MtG.
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Alex Churchill
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Wildhorn wrote:
alextfish wrote:
Wildhorn wrote:
Codex is not MtG.
While this is obviously true, it does take a lot of its terminology, structure and default assumptions from MtG. In not all, but many areas, Codex rules can be treated as "like MtG unless otherwise stated".


Actually, there is not much terminology from MtG into it, could you name me some (beside Flying and Legendary). The structure is nothing like MtG. So you should not assume anything works like in MtG.
Are... you serious? There was an entire topic on the old Sirlin forums titled "Codex for MtG players", describing the very many similarities between Codex and MtG. There were numerous threads where the comparison was made with phrases like "The way Codex interactions work can be assumed to be like MtG unless something says otherwise". (It's really frustrating that they took down the old Sirlin forums a couple of months ago, removing all the accumulated Codex knowledge just as the game was reaching backers and stores.)

And as for terminology... Let's just look down the list of Codex keywords seeing how many compare to MtG:

• Not comparable: Flying/anti-air (not actually like MtG's flying/reach), channelling, detector/invisible/stealth, healing, long-range, sparkshot, stash
• Very similar to MtG: Ephemeral, indestructible, obliterate, overpower, resist
• Identical but renamed: Boost (kicker), forecast (suspend), readiness (vigilance), swift strike (first strike), unstoppable (unblockable), untargetable (shroud)
• Identical, not even renamed: Deathtouch, fading, frenzy, haste, illusion, legendary, flagbearer

So that's ten abilities not comparable, thirteen identical to MtG with or without a name change, and five where there are similar MtG cards that will definitely help you understand it. In fact, there are plenty of Codex cards that don't just use terms identical to MtG, but that are actually identical or extremely similar to an MtG card. Tooth and Nail, One Dozen Eyes, Fireslinger, Cosmic Larva, Natural Order, Khalni Hydra, Mind Control, Peek, Sign in Blood, Jhoira's Timebug, Triskelion, and on and on.

The colours are clearly inspired by MtG's colours. Red has haste, ephemeral units, burn spells, ATK pumps but no HP pumps, temporary creature stealing, and sacrificing long-term potential for short-term gain. Black has discard, direct kill, -1/-1 runes, reanimation, skeletons and zombies, and demonic pacts with harsh drawbacks. Green has token spam, economy gain, +N/+N effects, a fog effect, the biggest creatures, fetching units straight from codex onto the battlefield. Blue isn't quite so direct a copy of MtG's blue but still has illusions, permanent creature stealing, copy effects and information warfare. Purple is just a love letter to MtG's Time Spiral block (the bits of it that aren't a love letter to the Protoss) - both "time rune" mechanics are carbon copies of identical mechanics from that MtG block.

And that's not even counting concepts like "damage", "targeting", "activated abilities" and "triggered abilities", which occur in several games but where Codex's implementation is by far closest to MtG than to any other game I've encountered.
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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By "not much terminology from MtG" I meant direct exact names. So there are 7 of them.

By structure I meant the way the game play, not the colors.
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Sharpo Bject
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Hi guys, you don't get to do triggered abilities in the middle of the resolution of other spells or abilities like in hearthstone. You must resolve the entire spell before the technician bonus happens.
 
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