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Subject: Supply question rss

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Krister Dahlgren
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This is the situation in a PBeM game I am currently playing. Simple question: Are the USA SPs around Vicksburg and in Memphis in supply or not, and if so, would USA PC markers be placed in north TX/LA at the end of the turn? Please give some arguments as to why or why not.


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My two cents here. My understanding is that Vicksburg and Jackson are not in supply as they cannot trace a LOC--in case you are wondering this can't be done via river as the Mississippi is DUNC: Vicksburg is between two reb forts.

Memphis, on the other hand, I believe is in supply as it can trace a path up north via rail and road through neutral and controlled spaces (but again not via river).
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Krister Dahlgren
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Yes, this seems to be the most common response and what was being ruled in the game until i objected. We await the final ruling from the moderator (James Pei) but my interpretation is that the forces around the Vicksburg area are in supply because they can trace a LoC to the northern railroads:

8.12 states that "The Union can trace [LoC] along navigable rivers through friendly controlled or neutral spaces whether Union naval control is or is not denied." This means that denial of Union naval control of a river does not automatically render the river unusable for LoC purposes.

Vicksburg can therefore trace a LoC to Memphis since there are no intervening enemy spaces despite the lack of Union naval control along that stretch of the river.

From Memphis or New Madrid, LoC is traced by land across neutral MO to St. Louis and the northern railroads. This means that the Union forces spread around Vicksburg are in supply (but it is hanging by a thin thread) and that they would be able to place PC markers in north TX/LA.

I would like to hear some comments before I continue to argue about this
 
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Good point, and at first I was leaning towards accepting it. However, if you go slowly over 8.12 you'll see why my statements above should stand.

The key is in the first two sentences under 8.12. The first sentence says "The Union can trace along navigable rivers through friendly controlled or neutral spaces whether Union naval control is or is not denied." The last part of this sentence fits your situation but the words in bold do not.

On the second sentence it can be read: "The Union can trace along navigable rivers through enemy controlled spaces (with or without an infantry or cavalry SP) where the Union has naval control." In here the opposite occurs, the first part fits your situation but not the text in bold.

Hence, Vicksburg and Jackson are not in supply. Does it make sense?
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Randy Mauldin
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What about tracing to Little Rock? Does the US have to have a PC in Arkansas Post to trace through there?
 
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Even worse. First, you can't trace to Little Rock according to my understanding of 8.12 (see previous post) and, second, you can't trace from there as there is no place to trace to (only neutral and friendly spaces can be used for a LOC).
 
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Krister Dahlgren
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Quote:
Does it make sense?

Hmmm not quite... but maybe I'm reading something wrong here... I hope you can bear with me for another round


This is my interpretation of 8.12:

Sentence 1: If all intervening spaces along the river are friendly or neutral, control of the river itself is irrelevant for a LoC.

Sentence 2: If one or more intervening spaces along the river are enemy controlled, Union naval control of the river is required (in those spaces) for a LoC.

Tracing past the fort in Columbus, KY is obviously not possible.


Vicksburg, Memphis and Jackson have USA PC markers on them from a previous turn. It is therefore my understanding that Vicksburg can trace a LoC to Memphis since both spaces are friendly controlled despite the lack of river control and from Memphis I think we agree that there exists a LoC from there to St. Louis and onwards. There are no enemy controlled spaces anywhere on the path from Vicksburg - Memphis - New Madrid - Neutral MO - St. Louis so all requirements in sentence 1 should be fulfilled? Or do you count Yazoo City? But is this not on a parallel river and can simply be bypassed by tracing along the left part of the river? This would also allow all SPs around Vicksburg in enemy spaces to chain-place PC markers there.

Compare the situation to the SP in Shreveport. If the SP in Monroe had not been there, it would be out of supply because it cannot trace a LoC along the uncontrolled Red River up to Vicksburg since the intervening spaces are enemy controlled. Had they been US controlled, it would have been in supply according to 8.12 which is the same situation as in Vicksburg relative to Memphis?


On a secondary note, I found a FAQ at https://forthepeopleqa.wordpress.com/qa/ (not sure how official this is) that lists this very similar question:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Q: If the Union is denied naval control from Columbus KY to New Orleans and has SPs and a PC marker in New Madrid, which is in supply overland, can the Union place a PC marker in Memphis (CSA control with Union SP on it) (8/2008, amended 8/2012)

A: Yes, if the Union an trace a LOC to New Madrid, even under denied Union Naval Control (DUNC) conditions. In this example New Madrid has a LOC, so the Union can trace a LOC from Memphis to New Madrid and therefore can place a Union PC marker in Memphis destroying the resource center.

River connections can be used to trace supply (in this example New Madrid-Memphis) just like rail or road connections, except the CSA cannot use them when the USA has naval control. Denying the Union naval control does not deny the Union the use of rivers, but enables the Confederate use of rivers, thus the Union can trace LOCs along navigable rivers irrespective of Union naval control.

Note that the presence of CSA SPs in a space or a CSA PC will deny Union ability to trace across a river connection in the absence of Union Naval control.


I feel that this answer strengthens my view in this case.

Little Rock was captured on a previous turn when there were no Rebel forts on the north part of the Mississppi. I agree fully that Little Rock is out of supply in this situation since there are intervening enemy spaces along the Arkansas river and it is also cut off from supply from the north side.

This is a messy situation that could be important for the outcome of this game so I really want to get this rule right.
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Perhaps you are right. The only intervening space along the river is on the Yazoo river, and you can trace through the Mississippi. I would wait for an official answer though as I'm not quite sure about this little nuance about rivers and their tributaries.

I would really like to know the answer to this one!
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Jon Gautier

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kadavriak wrote:
Yes, this seems to be the most common response and what was being ruled in the game until i objected. We await the final ruling from the moderator (James Pei) but my interpretation is that the forces around the Vicksburg area are in supply because they can trace a LoC to the northern railroads:

8.12 states that "The Union can trace [LoC] along navigable rivers through friendly controlled or neutral spaces whether Union naval control is or is not denied." This means that denial of Union naval control of a river does not automatically render the river unusable for LoC purposes.

Vicksburg can therefore trace a LoC to Memphis since there are no intervening enemy spaces despite the lack of Union naval control along that stretch of the river.

From Memphis or New Madrid, LoC is traced by land across neutral MO to St. Louis and the northern railroads. This means that the Union forces spread around Vicksburg are in supply (but it is hanging by a thin thread) and that they would be able to place PC markers in north TX/LA.

I would like to hear some comments before I continue to argue about this


I think you are correct, fwiw.
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james zajicek
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henderson
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Memphis is in supply ...there is a land route to St.Louis

Vicksburg is then is supply....via rule 8.12....US can trace along river
since no fort or ironclad.....

Then all other units are in supply from Vicksburg
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Krister Dahlgren
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I got an answer from the game's moderator James Pei, who double-checked with Mark Herman: Vicksburg and the SPs scattered around that area are in supply via the river according to 8.12 and then overland across neutral MO. He further stated that this situation is similar to what actually happened during the Red River Campaign.

But it is hanging by a thin thread, a CSA PC in Ironton or Greenville or a CSA SP in New Madrid breaks the LoC.
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