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Subject: Did we break it? rss

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Nathan Woll
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First play this weekend with 3 other first time players. The game progressed smoothly with everyone enjoying themselves and then it just died.

We reached a point where the game had no end in sight and everyone wanted to quit. The oxygen track was at the end but the temperature track was about less than halfway. All 4 players were maxed out on money. All 3 awards had been won, all 3 end-goals were identified (scientist/banker/miner etc). No one needed any cards. The resource pile was exhausted as players simply hoarded steel/titanium/energy/heat etc. (this is a flaw right? There is nothing to do with steel and titanium late game so they just pile up. Plus even if players had something to spend it on, the bonus 5 points for most steel or most heat encourages hoarding.)

So no one wanted cards (most of the cards help set up an "engine" and are useless once you have a production engine going), but no one had any incentive to raise the temperature. It's only 1 VP! By late game most players can get 2 VP or 1 1/2 VP each action so no one will raise the temperature. Even if you can get only 1 VP there is no incentive to raise the temperature instead of other 1 VP actions.

This resulted in the game basically degenerating because there was nothing in the design that forced an end to the game. (basically 1 player just "took one for the team" and spent every action raising the temperature so the game would finally end)

Did we miss a rule? What incentive is there to raise the temperature and end the game?

This was a very bad experience and I don't think any of us would play again.
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How many actions do you do in one generation?
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ZdadrDeM wrote:
How many actions do you do in one generation?


This, you have an unlimited number of actions in a generation, so using an action to spend heat to raise temperature is no loss unless you're competing for the Themalist award and surely not everybody would be in contention for that.

I'm assuming that as players were hoarding heat that they had nothing else to spend it on.
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Paulo Renato
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nswoll wrote:
First play this weekend with 3 other first time players. The game progressed smoothly with everyone enjoying themselves and then it just died.

We reached a point where the game had no end in sight and everyone wanted to quit. The oxygen track was at the end but the temperature track was about less than halfway. All 4 players were maxed out on money. All 3 awards had been won, all 3 end-goals were identified (scientist/banker/miner etc). No one needed any cards. The resource pile was exhausted as players simply hoarded steel/titanium/energy/heat etc. (this is a flaw right? There is nothing to do with steel and titanium late game so they just pile up. Plus even if players had something to spend it on, the bonus 5 points for most steel or most heat encourages hoarding.)

So no one wanted cards (most of the cards help set up an "engine" and are useless once you have a production engine going), but no one had any incentive to raise the temperature. It's only 1 VP! By late game most players can get 2 VP or 1 1/2 VP each action so no one will raise the temperature. Even if you can get only 1 VP there is no incentive to raise the temperature instead of other 1 VP actions.

This resulted in the game basically degenerating because there was nothing in the design that forced an end to the game. (basically 1 player just "took one for the team" and spent every action raising the temperature so the game would finally end)

Did we miss a rule? What incentive is there to raise the temperature and end the game?

This was a very bad experience and I don't think any of us would play again.


for once, each time you raise the temperature you gain 1 terraforming Rating (a victory point), that alone should be incentive enough...

I'm sure you were doing something very wrong if every player wasn't playing cards or using the heat they were producing to raise the temperature...

What you are describing makes no sense
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Evan G
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There is absolutely no reason to hoard resources, but especially not Plants and heat. Towards the end of a generation even if all cards have been played, the player who has a ton of heat may as well spend all or most on raising the temperature for free TR. If the other players have already passed he can just repeat the temperature action before the next generation.
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It seems like the problem is of hoarding nature. For us the game usually ends in generation 8-15 and with 70-100 points. Its kinda a race in that way.

Sure you can hoard to get alot of points but usually you lose the game that way when some other player goes for the global parameters
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Michael Denman
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There are so many things that make no sense here, but I'll try to hit a few of them.

nswoll wrote:
All 4 players were maxed out on money.


What does that even mean? Production levels are unlimited as are the amount of resources you could store on a card. There is no max.

nswoll wrote:
The resource pile was exhausted as players simply hoarded steel/titanium/energy/heat etc.


Why would you hoard heat? OK, so maybe the Thermalist award was active, but it had to be clear what place every one was in. Is it all so tight that nobody could spare 8 heat to raise the temperature? That seems very unlikely.

nswoll wrote:
It's only 1 VP! By late game most players can get 2 VP or 1 1/2 VP each action so no one will raise the temperature. Even if you can get only 1 VP there is no incentive to raise the temperature instead of other 1 VP actions.


Why couldn't you do those actions AND raise the temperature? This is a strong indication that you're playing the game wrong.

nswoll wrote:
This resulted in the game basically degenerating because there was nothing in the design that forced an end to the game.


Yes there is. All three parameters reward you with a victory point. All of my games have been close enough to warrant snatching up every single point you can find.

nswoll wrote:
This was a very bad experience and I don't think any of us would play again.


I really think you played the game wrong, but I understand how you could have a bad taste in your mouth now regardless of why. It's a shame because I really think TM is going to be game of the year on a lot of lists.
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X Shrike
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nswoll wrote:
All 4 players were maxed out on money.


There isn't a cap on any of the resources. How do you max money out?

If you mean production, you can go beyond 10 per turn. Just leave a marker cube on the 10 and start sending another cube marker up the production track.

nswoll wrote:
No one needed any cards.


This concept is bizarre to me. The people I play with and I always end the game wanting to play more cards.

nswoll wrote:
The resource pile was exhausted as players simply hoarded steel/titanium/energy/heat etc. (this is a flaw right? There is nothing to do with steel and titanium late game so they just pile up. Plus even if players had something to spend it on, the bonus 5 points for most steel or most heat encourages hoarding.)


This sounds like y'all made the, for some reason, very common mistake of thinking that you only get 1 or 2 actions a generation.

If this is the case, you actually get 1 or 2 actions and then the next player gets 1 or 2 actions. The players keep going around and around the table performing 1 or 2 actions until everyone has passed. After everyone has passed, then the generation proceeds to the production phase, and once the production phase is completed, then the next generation begins.

nswoll wrote:
So no one wanted cards (most of the cards help set up an "engine" and are useless once you have a production engine going), but no one had any incentive to raise the temperature. It's only 1 VP! By late game most players can get 2 VP or 1 1/2 VP each action so no one will raise the temperature. Even if you can get only 1 VP there is no incentive to raise the temperature instead of other 1 VP actions.

This resulted in the game basically degenerating because there was nothing in the design that forced an end to the game. (basically 1 player just "took one for the team" and spent every action raising the temperature so the game would finally end)

Did we miss a rule? What incentive is there to raise the temperature and end the game?

This was a very bad experience and I don't think any of us would play again.


I am interested in what they were doing that generated 1.5 to 2 points per turn. Animals and microbes?

The incentive to raise the oxygen, temperature, and generate oceans is to make the game end while you are in the lead as well as give points. This may sound obvious but, this game is essentially a race to get the most points by making an economic engine. If you make the game end quickly, it can stop a player working a slower point engine from getting ahead of you.
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Nick P.
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nswoll wrote:
Did we miss a rule?

I guess you misplayed a rule or two. Either every player incorrectly did only 1 or 2 actions and then you ended the generation or you incorrectly used the actions of the cards more than once each generation.

1) Every player can do unlimited actions each generation, but he can do only one or two at once and then it's the next players turn. This goes around repeatedly until every player couldn't do any more and has passed.

2) Each action on a blue card can be used only once each generation.

That way ressources can de spent and won't pile up and it does make sense to increase temperature, oxygen and build oceans for TP.

nswoll wrote:
This was a very bad experience and I don't think any of us would play again.
If you misplayed one or both of the rules mentioned above, you should give the game another chance, using the correct rules.

It seems you broke it, but there is a way to fix it!
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Quote:
By late game most players can get 2 VP or 1 1/2 VP each action so no one will raise the temperature. Even if you can get only 1 VP there is no incentive to raise the temperature instead of other 1 VP actions.

THIS COULD BE THE PROBLEM

You can do 2 actions per turn, until you pass. If you use a card, it can be used only ONCE per round (generation). Place a token on it to signify you used the action. When everyone passes, then you can use the card again.

Eventually you will go player to player until 1VP for raising the temperature or oxygen is all that is left.
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Tjoe Waldner
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One more thing...how come steel and titanium are useless towards the end of the game? I had 7 production on titanium the last time I played. I had no titanium left by game end. Lots of cards have victory points. Towards the end if you have the money you want to play them for that reason alone.
How do you 'hoard' in this game? If your not spending your resources your not gaining anything. Period. I never have enough resources To do all I want too. I can understand not spending much in one turn to do more the next. But saving for one turn just means next turn it will all say goodbye.
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Jeremy DuCharme

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another point, some cards, particularly animal and plant production require specific temperatures to play. And both grant VPs at the end of the game.

Also, are you aware of the rule that you can't get any TR points from a parameter that is maxed? As in once O2 hits 14%, all further O2 production does not grant points?
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Nathan Woll
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XShrike wrote:

This sounds like y'all made the, for some reason, very common mistake of thinking that you only get 1 or 2 actions a generation.

If this is the case, you actually get 1 or 2 actions and then the next player gets 1 or 2 actions. The players keep going around and around the table performing 1 or 2 actions until everyone has passed. After everyone has passed, then the generation proceeds to the production phase, and once the production phase is completed, then the next generation begins.


THIS!

Ok, that makes more sense.
Yeah, we were playing you only get 1 or 2 actions every generation so it made no sense to take a 1 VP action when better actions were available.

Ok, thanks. Maybe we'll try again.

(and i didn't mean "maxed out" literally i just meant that players had more money than could conceivably be spent in two actions)
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nswoll wrote:
XShrike wrote:

This sounds like y'all made the, for some reason, very common mistake of thinking that you only get 1 or 2 actions a generation.

If this is the case, you actually get 1 or 2 actions and then the next player gets 1 or 2 actions. The players keep going around and around the table performing 1 or 2 actions until everyone has passed. After everyone has passed, then the generation proceeds to the production phase, and once the production phase is completed, then the next generation begins.


THIS!

Ok, that makes more sense.
Yeah, we were playing you only get 1 or 2 actions every generation so it made no sense to take a 1 VP action when better actions were available.

Ok, thanks. Maybe we'll try again.

(and i didn't mean "maxed out" literally i just meant that players had more money than could conceivably be spent in two actions)


Yeah, what you played has no actual relationship to Terraforming Mars.
yuk

Fix this one thing and you and your crew will have a much better time playing this game. It should generally be done around generation 13-16 or so and take a couple of hours with 4 players.

It's gonna be funny to see how overboard FryxGames goes with rewriting this in the 2nd edition of the rule book. Too many people have been making this mistake.
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Paulo Renato
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I just don't understand how people keep doing this error... it's pretty clear in the rules that a Generation (Round) will end when all players choose to Pass their turn... until they pass they can do 1 or 2 actions when it's their turn...

I don't see how people go that each player can only have 2 actions in each Generation...
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Nathan Woll
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Muse23PT wrote:
I just don't understand how people keep doing this error... it's pretty clear in the rules that a Generation (Round) will end when all players choose to Pass their turn... until they pass they can do 1 or 2 actions when it's their turn...

I don't see how people go that each player can only have 2 actions in each Generation...


I wasn't the one who taught the game, but the few rules i read seemed pretty poorly written.

Just your summary that I quoted can be misinterpreted easily. In fact, if that's all the rules say then I can see why we played it wrong.

If I take 1 action how will the player after me know it is their turn? Because I will do something to indicate that I'm done (even though I have a remaining action), perhaps I might say "pass"? So when all players have "passed" or finished their one turn then the generations ends. (is a possible interpretation)

I don't know exactly how it's written but we missed it. Hopefully I can convince the owner of the game to try again.
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Paulo Renato
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nswoll wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
I just don't understand how people keep doing this error... it's pretty clear in the rules that a Generation (Round) will end when all players choose to Pass their turn... until they pass they can do 1 or 2 actions when it's their turn...

I don't see how people go that each player can only have 2 actions in each Generation...


I wasn't the one who taught the game, but the few rules i read seemed pretty poorly written.

Just your summary that I quoted can be misinterpreted easily. In fact, if that's all the rules say then I can see why we played it wrong.

If I take 1 action how will the player after me know it is their turn? Because I will do something to indicate that I'm done (even though I have a remaining action), perhaps I might say "pass"? So when all players have "passed" or finished their one turn then the generations ends. (is a possible interpretation)

I don't know exactly how it's written but we missed it. Hopefully I can convince the owner of the game to try again.


I think that is pretty clear on the rules that Passing means giving up all your actions, if you chose to do one action you are not passing, you are only doing one action and when you are done you just say to the next player, "I've done all the actions I want to do, it's your turn"
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Muse23PT wrote:
I just don't understand how people keep doing this error... it's pretty clear in the rules that a Generation (Round) will end when all players choose to Pass their turn... until they pass they can do 1 or 2 actions when it's their turn...

I don't see how people go that each player can only have 2 actions in each Generation...


To answer your comment (how people keep doing this error...")" We misplay clearly spelled out rules because we often do not read rules carefully, and/or slowly enough! I guess we're all guilty at some point, but most of the time rules errors come from being too anxious to play the game and not patient enough to slowly trudge through the rules. I know I've made my share of 'misses' by overlooking a rule that was clearly there, but I got in a hurry and scanned a section or two - and I'm a writer/publisher, trained to read carefully and slowly. I still miss rules - and TMars is not a quick read!

I have found if I read the rules thoroughly, then set up the game and play a few rounds, then re-read the rules, I am much more apt to catch errors before our first group game. In recent years, after my first play with everyone, I carefully re-read the rules (they make more sense after a complete play-through), and at that point I usually find a rule or two that we overlooked or did not play exactly right.

Thus, a "can't wait to play" zeal often results in overlooked rules.





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Muse23PT wrote:
I just don't understand how people keep doing this error... it's pretty clear in the rules that a Generation (Round) will end when all players choose to Pass their turn... until they pass they can do 1 or 2 actions when it's their turn...

I don't see how people go that each player can only have 2 actions in each Generation...


I made some suggestions in another thread. Someone there pointed out the player aids make it seem like 1-2 actions per turn then produce.

Enlarge and look in bottom right corner.
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pacemaker67 wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
I just don't understand how people keep doing this error... it's pretty clear in the rules that a Generation (Round) will end when all players choose to Pass their turn... until they pass they can do 1 or 2 actions when it's their turn...

I don't see how people go that each player can only have 2 actions in each Generation...


I made some suggestions in another thread. Someone there pointed out the player aids make it seem like 1-2 actions per turn then produce.

Enlarge and look in bottom right corner.


I think another problem is how often people that understand the game refer to a "Generation" as a "Round". Sure, it is a bit weird that a lot of people make this same exact mistake, and the rulebook could probably explain it a little better, but they always refer to a generation as a generation.

On the other hand, a "round" normally makes people think of going once around the table, and then the round is over. When I teach this game, possibly to the annoyance of everyone at the table, I always use the word "generation", if only to pound home to everyone exactly how a generation plays out.
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Sebastian Stückl
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nswoll wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
I just don't understand how people keep doing this error... it's pretty clear in the rules that a Generation (Round) will end when all players choose to Pass their turn... until they pass they can do 1 or 2 actions when it's their turn...

I don't see how people go that each player can only have 2 actions in each Generation...


I wasn't the one who taught the game, but the few rules i read seemed pretty poorly written.

Just your summary that I quoted can be misinterpreted easily. In fact, if that's all the rules say then I can see why we played it wrong.

If I take 1 action how will the player after me know it is their turn? Because I will do something to indicate that I'm done (even though I have a remaining action), perhaps I might say "pass"? So when all players have "passed" or finished their one turn then the generations ends. (is a possible interpretation)

I don't know exactly how it's written but we missed it. Hopefully I can convince the owner of the game to try again.


No, that really isn't a possible interpretation.
Passing your turn is very obviously different from taking 1 or 2 actions.
The word isn't used the way you interpreted it in most board games, especially not when players share turns/rounds rather than taking individual turns.
In general, it will mean to skip your turn, with play proceeding with the next player. Of course, this can be different based on context.


As for the rules, they describe the process like this:
Game overview wrote:
In the
Action phase, players take turns doing 1 or 2 actions, going
around the table until everyone has passed.

Action phase wrote:
Players take 1 or 2 actions each turn, or pass. Play
proceeds clockwise around the table until all players have
passed. The actions may be combined in any way the player
chooses. The available actions are:
[...]
You can choose to take 1 or 2 actions on your
turn. If you take no action at all (pass), you are out of
the round and may not take any anymore actions this
generation. When everyone has passed, the action phase ends.

As you can see, the rules are quite clear (apart from the obvious typo)



pacemaker67 wrote:
I made some suggestions in another thread. Someone there pointed out the player aids make it seem like 1-2 actions per turn then produce.

Enlarge and look in bottom right corner.


Hmm, yeah, "take turns doing 1 or 2 actions" is quite ambiguous.
Also, the player aid doesn't mention the option of passing at all, which it could to highlight that players take turns until everyone passes.
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I think the basic problem here is not the rule text itself but that people are used to play games with a limited number of available actions. They stop reading after "1 or 2 actions" and then think "ok, I get it" instead of reading carefully.

Yes, we will refrase and emphasize that you have unlimited actions in the next reprint. We don't want to have any more people missing the basic game structure and ending up hating the game and give it bad ratings and reviews here on BGG!

In most games you have a limited number of actions, often limited by the number of available "workers", or each phase of a game consists of players doing one thing each before moving on to the next phase. Therefore, people are biased when they read the rules: "Ok, action phase: now we can do actions. How many.. looks like 2 each. Fine, let's play!"

Of course I'm biased, because me and my brothers are the game designers, but we are very surprised that so many people misread this important part of the rules!!!
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nswoll wrote:
This was a very bad experience and I don't think any of us would play again.


A different game you might enjoy is Terraforming Mars.
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EagleEye80 wrote:
I think the basic problem here is not the rule text itself but that people are used to play games with a limited number of available actions. They stop reading after "1 or 2 actions" and then think "ok, I get it" instead of reading carefully.

Yes, we will refrase and emphasize that you have unlimited actions in the next reprint. We don't want to have any more people missing the basic game structure and ending up hating the game and give it bad ratings and reviews here on BGG!

In most games you have a limited number of actions, often limited by the number of available "workers", or each phase of a game consists of players doing one thing each before moving on to the next phase. Therefore, people are biased when they read the rules: "Ok, action phase: now we can do actions. How many.. looks like 2 each. Fine, let's play!"

Of course I'm biased, because me and my brothers are the game designers, but we are very surprised that so many people misread this important part of the rules!!!

The rules are not unclear! Clearly, though, this needs to be emphasized since people somehow keep missing it. However, this is not so uncommon a structure, at least for fans of Martin Wallace's games. Many of these, for example, have several "Turns" (equivalent to your generations) where players go round and round taking actions until everyone has passed.
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nswoll wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
I just don't understand how people keep doing this error... it's pretty clear in the rules that a Generation (Round) will end when all players choose to Pass their turn... until they pass they can do 1 or 2 actions when it's their turn...

I don't see how people go that each player can only have 2 actions in each Generation...


I wasn't the one who taught the game, but the few rules i read seemed pretty poorly written.

Just your summary that I quoted can be misinterpreted easily. In fact, if that's all the rules say then I can see why we played it wrong.

If I take 1 action how will the player after me know it is their turn? Because I will do something to indicate that I'm done (even though I have a remaining action), perhaps I might say "pass"? So when all players have "passed" or finished their one turn then the generations ends. (is a possible interpretation)

I don't know exactly how it's written but we missed it. Hopefully I can convince the owner of the game to try again.


Not going to read through all the responses so it may have been said already, but the game is very clear: When your turn comes around and you do not perform an action, you are considered to have "passed". So if you complete one or two action, you can not pass, even if you wanted to. You would simply wait for your turn to come around again and complete zero actions, then you would have been considered to have passed. So when your turn is done, you can say "pass", "soft pass", "your turn" etc, and still get more actions when the turn comes back around to you.
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