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Subject: Clarification on engine moving backwards. rss

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Mauro Lazzara
United Kingdom
Aberdeen
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Hi all,

Can a reversing train move through a station?
The rules are actually almost perfectly clear on this, and yet...

On the English rules, page 13, top right corner, it reads "You can move backwards to a turnout space and if you stop there...", which suggests that the train doesn't have to stop and can move through.

What's my problem then!?
Well, imagine that your train engine is on track section 8, just below Santa Fe, and that the turnout station behind you is empty. Let's say that you are taking a double auxiliary action requiring that you move your train backwards by two spaces - and it's a requirement, so you cannot choose to move backwards less than two spaces. According to the rules as I read them (unless I've missed a bit), you could move back into the station with the first backward movement, and then out of it with the second, ending up on track section 7 - effectively only moving back one space on the main track.

Now, this trick doesn't work if there is another train in the station,... which might validate pulling it off when it is possible to do so, but despite this opportunity not being always available, and despite the rules suggesting everything is fine, I still get a whiff of "cheating" in this, so I'd like a confirmation that reversing through a station is indeed fine - or a clarification that it's not.
Also, if it's not OK to reverse through a station, I would assume that you cannot reverse into it and stop if you are required to move backwards for more spaces - you'd just stick to the main track and move backwards there. Correct?

Cheers
 
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Thomas Leitner
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I'm not sure what you're finding unclear? The rules explicitly state you can move backwards to or through a station space.

As to the second part of your question, you can never choose to move backwards fewer spaces than required.
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Mauro Lazzara
United Kingdom
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Hello Thomas,

Can you please point out in the rules where it says explicitly that you can move through a station? Even for forward movement, I could only find parts where it says that you can move to it "and if you stop there...", suggesting that you don't have to, but it's always kept implicit.
That's not important in forward movement, because you can always choose to move less spaces than allowed: instead of carrying out two movements passing through an empty station, I could just move once sticking to the main line, as I am allowed to do, and the result would be the same; however, as we both point out, backward movement is a requirement.

So this is unclear to me, because the rules never say explicitly (unless I missed it, of course) that you may move through a station, especially backwards.
"Implicit" can't always be trusted and may require interpretation. I have another rules thread here, about moving your train forward zero spaces inside a station and then upgrading it: since zero is certainly less movements than you are allowed, I assumed implicitly that it was OK, but as it turns out, it's not.
 
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Axel
Germany
Görlitz
Sachsen
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Quote:
You can move
backwards to a turnout space and if
you stop there, may upgrade its train
station as usual.


Page 13
 
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Nikolas Co
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New York
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The part about "if you stop there" simply means that if it is the last space your train is moved to during that action: you can't move into a turnout space, upgrade a station, and continue moving.
puposolitario wrote:
Well, imagine that your train engine is on track section 8, just below Santa Fe, and that the turnout station behind you is empty. Let's say that you are taking a double auxiliary action requiring that you move your train backwards by two spaces - and it's a requirement, so you cannot choose to move backwards less than two spaces. According to the rules as I read them (unless I've missed a bit), you could move back into the station with the first backward movement, and then out of it with the second, ending up on track section 7 - effectively only moving back one space on the main track.
Yes, that's fine. Well played!
puposolitario wrote:
Now, this trick doesn't work if there is another train in the station,...
Indeed, an engine ("train") being in the turnout space both prevents opponents from building a station there and forces them to move backwards further on the main track (when an action requires moving their engine backwards).


To be clear, here's a few example situations. In all of them, the blue player has just performed a double auxiliary action to remove two cards from their hand from the game; therefore they must move their engine backwards two spaces.
Above, the blue player may end their movement on either space 7 (if they use the turnout space) or space 6 (if they don't).

Above, the blue player must end their movement on space 6.

Above, the blue player may end their movement on either:
* Space 5 (if they use the turnout space between 7 and 8
* Turnout space between 4 and 5
* Space 4 (if they use no turnout space)

Between the three pictures, only the bottom one allows the blue to upgrade a train station (the one between spaces 4 and 5).
(Apologies for there being no discs and no station master tokens in the examples. I just took some quick photos to illustrate the movement rules)
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Robert
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NikolasCo wrote:
[Most of great explanation cut for brevity...]

Between the three pictures, only the bottom one allows the blue to upgrade a train station (the one between spaces 4 and 5).
(Apologies for there being no discs and no station master tokens in the examples. I just took some quick photos to illustrate the movement rules)
Skeptics, please note that this was up-voted by the designer, so we can safely assume that Nikolas' explanation is correct.
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Mauro Lazzara
United Kingdom
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Hi Robert,

Thank you for pointing it out, this closes the case for me.
 
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Tom Ribbens
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DocCool wrote:
NikolasCo wrote:
[Most of great explanation cut for brevity...]

Between the three pictures, only the bottom one allows the blue to upgrade a train station (the one between spaces 4 and 5).
(Apologies for there being no discs and no station master tokens in the examples. I just took some quick photos to illustrate the movement rules)
Skeptics, please note that this was up-voted and tipped by the designer, so we can safely assume that Nikolas' explanation is correct.

Fixed that for you.
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Alexander Pfister
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Yes Nikolas did a perfect explanation.thumbsup
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David Larkin
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On p13 under auxiliary actions it says

Quote:
If both disc spaces of that action are cleared, you may use it as a double auxiliary action


and later it says
Quote:
you can never deliberately move fewer spaces backwards than required


If you can choose whether to take the second auxiliary action then surely you can chose whether you move backwards one space or two?
 
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Tilou
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Zark wrote:

On p13 under auxiliary actions it says

Quote:
If both disc spaces of that action are cleared, you may use it as a double auxiliary action


and later it says
Quote:
you can never deliberately move fewer spaces backwards than required


If you can choose whether to take the second auxiliary action then surely you can chose whether you move backwards one space or two?


No. One thing has nothing to do with other.
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Tom Ribbens
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Zark wrote:

On p13 under auxiliary actions it says

Quote:
If both disc spaces of that action are cleared, you may use it as a double auxiliary action


and later it says
Quote:
you can never deliberately move fewer spaces backwards than required


If you can choose whether to take the second auxiliary action then surely you can chose whether you move backwards one space or two?


Yes and No. You can choose to do the auxiliary action once or twice. Depending on that choice, you MUST then move your train one back for each time you do the action. So rules-wise, you're not choosing whether you move backwards once or twice, you're choosing how many times to do the action. Of course, in non-technical terms, you are doing just that.
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Mauro Lazzara
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Tom is correct in my opinion - the requirement for moving backwards depends on whether you take a single or double auxiliary action.

On a very side note though, I want to point out to Tom that when you take a double auxiliary action, you're not taking the single auxiliary action twice.
That doesn't make a difference for most auxiliary actions, including the one used in this thread as an example, but it does make a difference for the second auxiliary action: when you take it double, you draw two cards from your deck, then discard two. This is different from (and better than) drawing and discarding, then drawing and discarding again.
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David Larkin
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tomribbens wrote:
Zark wrote:

On p13 under auxiliary actions it says

Quote:
If both disc spaces of that action are cleared, you may use it as a double auxiliary action


and later it says
Quote:
you can never deliberately move fewer spaces backwards than required


If you can choose whether to take the second auxiliary action then surely you can chose whether you move backwards one space or two?


Yes and No. You can choose to do the auxiliary action once or twice. Depending on that choice, you MUST then move your train one back for each time you do the action. So rules-wise, you're not choosing whether you move backwards once or twice, you're choosing how many times to do the action. Of course, in non-technical terms, you are doing just that.

That is how I understood it, but as I can't think of any other way that you can move more than one space backwards it seemed unnecessary and its inclusion made me think I might be missing something.
 
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マルコ
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puposolitario wrote:
On a very side note though, I want to point out to Tom that when you take a double auxiliary action, you're not taking the single auxiliary action twice.
That doesn't make a difference for most auxiliary actions, including the one used in this thread as an example,[...]


I'm not sure: If you take the 'move two stpes backwards (e.g. to remove two cards from the game)' double action, you can't move one step, build a station (if possible) and then go backwards the second step. I think you had to go backwards two steps and then you might build a station (if possible).
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Alexander Pfister
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Correct: "...double auxiliary action. This means that its requirement (if it has one) and its reward are both doubled."
So not "do it 2 times" but "is doubled".
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Mauro Lazzara
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Good point, I stand corrected. It makes a difference here as well.
 
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karel vlasak
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AlexP wrote:
Yes Nikolas did a perfect explanation.thumbsup

I am still a bit confused. On page 14, description of the tile 9A, it says that the turnout spaces do not count when moving the engine backwards. However, in the Nikolas´ description above, the turnout spaces are counted (and it is consistent with the description on page 13). Does it mean that there are two different kinds/rules for backward moves of the engine? Would you please explain?
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Alexander Pfister
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vlasak wrote:
Does it mean that there are two different kinds/rules for backward moves of the engine? Would you please explain?

As in most games: buildings, cards etc. can overrule a general rule. This is the case with building 9a.
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karel vlasak
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Thanks a lot, Alexander!

So, just to be on the very safe side, if I may use the three examples of Nikolas above: If we are in the situation to move the engine 2 spaces back based on the tile 9a - in figure 1 and 2, the engine must end on space 6. In the third example, the engine may not end at the turnout between 4 and 5 but must end on space 4, correct? (of course, under the assumption that Wichita value was 2, just for the sake of example, or as if the engine started the movement another 2 spaces farther ahead and was moving 4 spaces backwards...)
 
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Alexander Pfister
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Everything correct, karel.
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