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The Horus Heresy: Burning of Prospero» Forums » Rules

Subject: That Grenade Harness... rss

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Kevin Outlaw
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So, how are people playing it?

At first blush, it seems like a simple thing. One terminator gets to take a grenade harness. Before his unit shoots, he gets to make a free bonus attack.

Now, my immediate thinking was the harness was a good way to make a termie with dual-wielding claws a bit more flexible. In fact, in all the pictures throughout the rules the harness is indeed on the back of a dual-wielding termie.

But the rules specifically say the harness is used before a combat squad makes a shooting action, and afterwards the unit takes its shooting action as normal.

And that would be a problem for a termie with lightning claws if he's the only model in the zone, because he wouldn't ever have a shooting action.

Now, it seems stupid to prevent the terminator from firing the grenades just because he doesn't have other weapons to fire. I can't believe that's what the rules intend. So, I'm assuming the rules are badly worded, and simply mean you can only use the harness if you are in a legal position to make a shooting action (not adjacent to enemies) and not intending to make a combat action this turn.

In other words, you fire the grenades and then take a shooting action, even if that shooting action is to not shoot because you don't have any weapons to do so.

In other, other words, firing grenades prevents you from making a combat action that turn, although you can still shoot if you are able to.

How is everyone else handling this?
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Marc Nelson Jr.
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Well, I'm not a Warhammer guy and I don't have the BoP rules yet...

But in Betrayal at Calth, the Grenade Harness gives you a bonus when making a melee attack.

Quote:
Grenade Harness

This auxiliary system is fitted to Legion Terminator armor plate, allowing the armor's wearer to trigger a barrage of frag grenades that precede a devastating charge.

Frag Assault: When a unit that contains a model equipped with a Grenade Harness makes a Melee Attack, it rolls one additional dice for each model in the target unit.
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Kevin Outlaw
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marcnelsonjr wrote:
Well, I'm not a Warhammer guy and I don't have the BoP rules yet...

But in Betrayal at Calth, the Grenade Harness gives you a bonus when making a melee attack.

Quote:
Grenade Harness

This auxiliary system is fitted to Legion Terminator armor plate, allowing the armor's wearer to trigger a barrage of frag grenades that precede a devastating charge.

Frag Assault: When a unit that contains a model equipped with a Grenade Harness makes a Melee Attack, it rolls one additional dice for each model in the target unit.


in Prospero it's very clearly shooting up to three zones before your shooting action. Not sure why they made it so different.
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Cutthroat Cardboard (Barry)
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:

Now, it seems stupid to prevent the terminator from firing the grenades just because he doesn't have other weapons to fire. I can't believe that's what the rules intend. So, I'm assuming the rules are badly worded, and simply mean you can only use the harness if you are in a legal position to make a shooting action (not adjacent to enemies) and not intending to make a combat action this turn.


I think it's pretty much as you describe. The rule states "before their combat squad makes their shooting attacks" As you can't make a shooting attack when you are adjacent to the target it clearly can't be used prior to a combat attack. The only contentious position would be if it was on its own and therefore no other unit in its squad was shooting but like you I think this is just a poor use of language. I believe they are only telling us the timing and type of attack action not trying to place any further limitation on the use of grenades.
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Kevin Outlaw
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Skipp wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:

Now, it seems stupid to prevent the terminator from firing the grenades just because he doesn't have other weapons to fire. I can't believe that's what the rules intend. So, I'm assuming the rules are badly worded, and simply mean you can only use the harness if you are in a legal position to make a shooting action (not adjacent to enemies) and not intending to make a combat action this turn.


I think it's pretty much as you describe. The rule states "before their combat squad makes their shooting attacks" As you can't make a shooting attack when you are adjacent to the target it clearly can't be used prior to a combat attack. The only contentious position would be if it was on its own and therefore no other unit in its squad was shooting but like you I think this is just a poor use of language. I believe they are only telling us the timing and type of attack action not trying to place any further limitation on the use of grenades.


Yeah. I really can't see it working any other way. Anyway - I'm playing it as an additional shooting action you can take if you are in a legal position to make a shooting action, even if you don't have any other weapons to shoot with. If that's not the intent, then I wouldn't ever put the grenades on a dual-wielding termie, because it's too restrictive (and for absolutely no good reason).
 
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Geoff Davis
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This one gave me a pause for thought and I haven't yet glued it on as I'm still in the process of painting the models.

The short answer from me is I'm going to put it onto the sergeant. The reason is that I'll be pulling double duty on the figures for both prospero and 40k/30k (Horus Heresy) tabletop games. In the Heresy army lists they are an upgrade for the sergeant and as the inevitable 40k rules for the weapons on the frame are released its likely it will give the same options. Although the fact they did put them on the claws model may cause an amendment to the army lists for 30k!

The pause was because in prospero I couldn't see a restriction for sergeant only that I was expecting.

As for what it does, again seems to be a version of the tabletop rules as in that they give the squad a bonus for charging into cover and the option to lob them onto a target, both of which you can do with traditional frag grenades.

They seem to have mostly skipped grenades in the prospero rules as there aren't any on the frames unlike the Calth Marines which are festooned!

D
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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The_big_D wrote:

The pause was because in prospero I couldn't see a restriction for sergeant only that I was expecting.



Yet there is such a restriction in Calth, where your only option is to put the harness on the sarge. But then, in Calth it gives a close combat buff, while in Prospero it's a secondary ranged attack. It's a bit odd, really.

Not quite sure what you mean about a bonus for charging into cover; it just seems like a regular shooting action to me.
 
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Geoff Davis
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
The_big_D wrote:

The pause was because in prospero I couldn't see a restriction for sergeant only that I was expecting.



Yet there is such a restriction in Calth, where your only option is to put the harness on the sarge. But then, in Calth it gives a close combat buff, while in Prospero it's a secondary ranged attack. It's a bit odd, really.

Not quite sure what you mean about a bonus for charging into cover; it just seems like a regular shooting action to me.


I know, they have kept that background/army list element from the horus heresy tabletop game in the Calth squad setup but ignored it in the prospero squad setup.

The cover bit is refering to the massed battle tabletop rules. In 40k/30k there are 2 effects from a grenade harness. One is a close combat advantage which is simply that you don't get penalised in the ensuing round of combat if you launched an assault into a unit that is behind cover. The second is a shooting attack.

They seemed to have ignored any shooting mode when creating the Calth rules and ignored any close combat advantage when writing the prospero rules. Odd, but there we are!

D
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Kevin Outlaw
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The_big_D wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
The_big_D wrote:

The pause was because in prospero I couldn't see a restriction for sergeant only that I was expecting.



Yet there is such a restriction in Calth, where your only option is to put the harness on the sarge. But then, in Calth it gives a close combat buff, while in Prospero it's a secondary ranged attack. It's a bit odd, really.

Not quite sure what you mean about a bonus for charging into cover; it just seems like a regular shooting action to me.


I know, they have kept that background/army list element from the horus heresy tabletop game in the Calth squad setup but ignored it in the prospero squad setup.

The cover bit is refering to the massed battle tabletop rules. In 40k/30k there are 2 effects from a grenade harness. One is a close combat advantage which is simply that you don't get penalised in the ensuing round of combat if you launched an assault into a unit that is behind cover. The second is a shooting attack.

They seemed to have ignored any shooting mode when creating the Calth rules and ignored any close combat advantage when writing the prospero rules. Odd, but there we are!

D


Ah. Thanks for clarifying. I thought you meant some kind of cover benefit in Prospero, but that could well be down to me not drinking enough coffee today.

When they do things like this with the grenade rules, it does lend weight to the theory that they are testing what works and what doesn't, perhaps with an eye on creating a "best of" somewhere down the line.
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Mark
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"...players take it in turns to make attacks with any of their combat squads that are able to do so."

A lone termie with dual-wielding claws, armed with a Grenade Harness can make a shooting attack (with the Grenade Launcher). All models in a zone make up a Combat Squad (even lone models).

The Grenade Harness says "...may fire at a target within 3 squares before their shooting attacks."

Nothing in that sentence says a unit that cannot make a shooting attack, is precluded from firing the Grenade Launcher. It just says the Grenade Harness attack comes first, and would not be combined with other shooting in the squad (if there is any). It would not matter if the squad could not otherwise make a shooting attack.

"Climb the ladder and paint the house" does NOT say if you don't have paint, you can't climb the ladder.

And, any comparisons with other games is OK for background, but hazardous for rules interpretations. Trust me.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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ZombieMark wrote:
"...players take it in turns to make attacks with any of their combat squads that are able to do so."

A lone termie with dual-wielding claws, armed with a Grenade Harness can make a shooting attack (with the Grenade Launcher). All models in a zone make up a Combat Squad (even lone models).

The Grenade Harness says "...may fire at a target within 3 squares before their shooting attacks."

Nothing in that sentence says a unit that cannot make a shooting attack, is precluded from firing the Grenade Launcher. It just says the Grenade Harness attack comes first, and would not be combined with other shooting in the squad (if there is any). It would not matter if the squad could not otherwise make a shooting attack.

"Climb the ladder and paint the house" does NOT say if you don't have paint, you can't climb the ladder.

And, any comparisons with other games is OK for background, but hazardous for rules interpretations. Trust me.


Nobody is using other games to determine a rules interpretation. We are just discussing how it's interesting that a company that relies heavily on its fluff created two different rules for the same weapon.

And "climb the ladder and paint the house" would be a bloody stupid instruction to give to someone who didn't have paint, which is why I say the wording in the rules is poor.

We all know that models in the same zone form a combat squad, and if there is even one model in the same zone as the termie the rules actually make complete sense. You fire the grenade, then you fire the remaining guns. But the rules failed to clarify the situation for when a termie without guns is alone, which is silly when a termie without guns is one of the best choices for the grenades.

The point is, a lone termie cannot take a shooting action (you can argue the first quote in your post verifies that). But we all seem to agree that the wording in the rules is to help clarify when the attack happens, rather than to limit when it happens.
 
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Mark
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Well, to discuss another game, we had a similar issue with Rad Grenades in Betrayal at Calth. Nearly the same wording. Consensus was "Fire Away!"
 
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Mark
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Flamer in Prospero works the same. Fires before the squad. So, if the Flamer is the ONLY model in the squad, and it fires BEFORE the squad, and there are NO MORE models that can fire, then the Flamer CAN'T fire? But, if it CAN'T fire BEFORE the squad, CAN it THEN fire?
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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ZombieMark wrote:
Flamer in Prospero works the same. Fires before the squad. So, if the Flamer is the ONLY model in the squad, and it fires BEFORE the squad, and there are NO MORE models that can fire, then the Flamer CAN'T fire? But, if it CAN'T fire BEFORE the squad, CAN it THEN fire?


Well, it actually doesn't work quite the same.

When I wrote my OP, I hadn't used any flamers. I had read the rules, and didn't have any issues with them, which is quite interesting, because they are indeed similar to the grenade rules.

I am 100% certain the intent in both cases is fire with those weapons, and then fire with whatever else you've got; but there are differences in the way each is written.

I'll put on my special rules lawyer hat (which I absolutely do not wear in real life because rules lawyers shouldn't play Games Workshop games!).

For a start, the rules specifically say, you can make an attack (combat or ranged) with all of your combat squads that are able to do so. Additionally, the flamer rules specifically call the flamer attack a "shooting attack".

So, right there I know that I am safe to fire my flamer as a shooting attack. The unit is equipped correctly, even if the flamer is alone.

The flamer rules specify you make this attack before the REMAINDER of the squad fire. This is a timing rule. You make your special shooting attack, and then if there are any other models, they make their shooting attack.

The difference with the grenade harness is that it's never called a shooting action (but of course it is), and you make it before the squad makes THEIR shooting attacks - it's an additional attack.

Subtle as it is, there is a difference.

The flamer gets to make a legal shooting attack before the remainder of the squad. The grenade harness gets to make an attack before its own shooting attack. The problem boils down to that, by the rules, you can't take an action if you aren't equipped for it, and a dual-wielding claws terminator isn't equipped to shoot.

Of course, that's all nonsense, and I see absolutely no reason not to allow the attack in both cases. It's just an example of how some fuzzy rules book writing has the potential to keep rules lawyers gainfully employed.
 
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Mark
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Hey! DON'T mess with my disruption of the Space-Time Continuum!
 
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Claudio Hornblower
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Am I right in thinking that:

1. you can always Shoot Attack or Combat Attack; the difference is that you SA against non-adjacent enemies in LOS, while CA is versus adjacent only; and you can't SA if you could CA

2. so I have my 2-claws Terminator with Grenade Harness; one 3-veterans Wolf squad is 2 squares away (= non-adjacent): I Shoot Attack it

3. I decide to use the Grenade Harness; roll 3D6 for the attack, my opponent rolls 3D6 for defense, then apply damage (if any);

4. then I proceed to resolve my unit's shooting attack; rules say to apply my Shooting weapon profile, which for Two Lighting Claws is "-" (none); my range attack window ends.

And by the way, I am not allowed to put Grenade Harness on Terminator Sergeant, right?
"One Tartaros Terminato may be equipped..."
It's like the Vexilla for the Veterans (not Veteran Sergeants).


(Also, as a corollary, the "short range" weapons really mean that you can only target models 2 or 3 spaces away - since you can't target 1 space away or it would be Close Attack, right?)
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Mythologem wrote:
Am I right in thinking that:

1. you can always Shoot Attack or Combat Attack; the difference is that you SA against non-adjacent enemies in LOS, while CA is versus adjacent only; and you can't SA if you could CA

2. so I have my 2-claws Terminator with Grenade Harness; one 3-veterans Wolf squad is 2 squares away (= non-adjacent): I Shoot Attack it

3. I decide to use the Grenade Harness; roll 3D6 for the attack, my opponent rolls 3D6 for defense, then apply damage (if any);

4. then I proceed to resolve my unit's shooting attack; rules say to apply my Shooting weapon profile, which for Two Lighting Claws is "-" (none); my range attack window ends.

And by the way, I am not allowed to put Grenade Harness on Terminator Sergeant, right?
"One Tartaros Terminato may be equipped..."
It's like the Vexilla for the Veterans (not Veteran Sergeants).


(Also, as a corollary, the "short range" weapons really mean that you can only target models 2 or 3 spaces away - since you can't target 1 space away or it would be Close Attack, right?)


The way you step it out in your post is how I play it, which I believe is the intent. Obviously, if your lightning claws terminator isn't alone, you would do the rest of your shooting attacks for that combat unit in your step 4.

And no, you can't put a grenade harness on a sergeant. It isn't one of his options.
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Claudio Hornblower
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Precious. Thanks again Kevin.

Not to derail the thread but, what are your thoughts on the range part? Does something like a "range 1" exist for shooting? I guess no, because Range calls for "adjacent zones", but "2 zones are adjacent if they share a border not including corners" (emphasis mine).

The "not including corners" cuts off the chance to shoot at range 1 in diagonal, leaving only orthogonal (more or less, depending on the zone shape): but "range 1" orthogonal means... melee. Which forbids ranged attack.

So Grenade Harness, as well as pistols, flamers... can only shoot at range 2, or 3, never at 1 - because that would be close combat.

That's how we're playing it right now, at least.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Mythologem wrote:
Precious. Thanks again Kevin.

Not to derail the thread but, what are your thoughts on the range part? Does something like a "range 1" exist for shooting? I guess no, because Range calls for "adjacent zones", but "2 zones are adjacent if they share a border not including corners" (emphasis mine).

The "not including corners" cuts off the chance to shoot at range 1 in diagonal, leaving only orthogonal (more or less, depending on the zone shape): but "range 1" orthogonal means... melee. Which forbids ranged attack.

So Grenade Harness, as well as pistols, flamers... can only shoot at range 2, or 3, never at 1 - because that would be close combat.

That's how we're playing it right now, at least.



Good Lord, I'm tired. After editing my last post about 100 times, due to typos that completely changed what I was trying to say, I'm starting over:

Right. The rules give some mixed messages here.

LOS says you only need to trace a straight line from any point of your square to any point on the target square. However, range says the line has to pass through adjacent spaces, and therefore you cannot count diagonals. So, I treat the range on ranged weapons as:


blankblankblankX
blankblankxxx
blankxxxxx
xxxoxxx
blankxxxxx
blankblankxxx
blankblankblankX


I'm not 100% sure if that's right, but the more powerful short-range weapons are too badass if you let them target on the diagonals, as it gives them massive range in some cases.
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