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Zombicide: Black Plague» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rotten / Invisibility - How exactly does this work? rss

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Brian Smith
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As are others, I am confused on how the Rotten/invisibility enchantment card works.

I assume the enchantment needs to be recast each turn. So I assume you take the rotten token off after the zombies activation/spawn?

I'm confused by the official ruling which seems to contradict the rule book:

- Can Invisibility be cast on a survivor who used a combat action or made noise in their turn?
- Can a survivor cast it on himself?

GG: In both cases, the answer is “Yes”. The Enchantement is lost if the target Survivor makes Noise after it is cast.


The rules state that a survivor that has not made noise and/or attacked can become "rotten."

However, the official clarification above seems to do away with this rule and invisibility can be cast on basically anyone no matter wither they attack or make noise. So if I understand the rule clarification correctly a lone survivor could attack and make noise and then as his last action cast invisibility. The end result would be all zombies would simply head for him and he would have immunity. Obviously this would make the game ridiculously easy!

So which is it? Can a survivor make noise and attack and then cast invisibility (or have it cast on him)? Or can the spell only be cast when the survivor has not made noise and/or attacked?

Call me confused! I would love some clarification.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Think of it this way. There is a difference between actually having the Rotten skill vs just gaining the benefits. The Invisibility spell grants the benefits (regardless what the target survivor has done previously in the turn).

And yes, GG has said you can cast Invisibility on yourself. If you think about it though this can easily become a broken mechanic and be abused. It could be used to control all the zombies on the board by managing noise and invisibility. Some players, myself included, house-rule that you can't cast it on yourself.
 
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Brian Smith
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Thanks Chuck!

I only have the core game. Unless I am mistaken the only way a survivor can become invisible is by getting the invisibility card and/or casting invisibility spell at a cost of one activation.

So if I understand the enchantment card correctly anyone can benefit at any time, correct? What action(s) they did before hand or after the spell is cast on them are irrelevant. For example, according to the official rules a person could cast the spell on himself and make noise and engage in combat.

I assume that the rules regarding combat and noise breaking the spell ONLY apply if a survivor has the skill on his survivor card to begin with? In other words, not having or using an enchantment card.

The way you house play is the spell can be cast on anyone but themselves (at the cost of 1 activation and 1 noise) and the targeted survivor can make noise and engage in combat w/out losing the benefits of being invisible.

Am I understanding the official rules and your house rules correctly?

You'd think they'd issue a clarification!


 
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Brian Smith
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I just read the card again. It DOES matte what the survivor does after the spell is cast on him. The survivor can't attack or make noise. The survivor CAN make noise/combat beforehand, however.

Since it states directly on the cart itself you can't engage in combat or make noise how does this skew the game?

I'm still confused. Hopefully you can spell if out for me.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Correct, if you make noise or do combat after receiving Invisibility you will break the spell.
 
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Brian Smith
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Carcking wrote:
Correct, if you make noise or do combat after receiving Invisibility you will break the spell.


So the OP problem only applies when a survivors starts with "rotten" skil. Is that correct?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Rotten is fine. It is easily understood and is not broken. Invisibility is a broken version of Rotten.

I just say that the noise caused by casting Invisibility happens after the effect, thus cancelling it.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Bghead8che wrote:
Carcking wrote:
Correct, if you make noise or do combat after receiving Invisibility you will break the spell.


So the OP problem only applies when a survivors starts with "rotten" skil. Is that correct?

The OP issue is with Invisibility. For example, a survivor can make enough actions of noise so he is the noisiest zone, then cast Invisibility on himself. He can do this turn after turn. This will draw all the zombies on the board to his zone, effectively ccontrolling the Zs so the other survivors can go about the quest relatively unhindered, by managing LoS. Then the Zs can easily be lead away from his zone if they spend a turn making sure he is not the noisiest zone. The Zs will simply walk away from the zone. If he happens to have dragon bile and torch, well...
 
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Conan Meriadoc
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the rules for Invisibility as written are broken and simply do not work; I'd suspect they never have been playtested for issues.

The most common variant I've seen to make it less OP is to prevent casting invisibility on oneself (you're making noise as part of the casting).

I'm considering another variant: Invisibility doesn't affect zombies on the invisible survivor's zone - They're close enough to smell him. This allows a survivor to avoid attracting attention, but not to act as a zombie beacon while other survivors complete the scenario objectives.
 
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Brian Smith
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Thanks for the reply guys. Yes, the rule is broken. Perhaps we can email GG and request they update/change the rule?

The house rule that you can't cast the spell on yourself works fine, however, obviously the designers intended the survivor w/ the card could use the spell on himself.

Why not just use the rotten rules as if they apply to the enchantment card? In other words anyone that makes noise/combat before or after the spell is cast loses invisibility. That way you could cast the spell on yourself but only if you did not make noise or engage in combat before or after. By doing this you are giving a survivor a one turn invisibility skill which I believe was the intention.

Thoughts?

 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Bghead8che wrote:
Thanks for the reply guys. Yes, the rule is broken. Perhaps we can email GG and request they update/change the rule?

From experience, it won't help, but feel free to try.



Quote:
That way you could cast the spell on yourself but only if you did not make noise or engage in combat before or after. By doing this you are giving a survivor a one turn invisibility skill which I believe was the intention.

Casting the Spell causes noise, so this seems impossible.
 
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Guillaume Gleize
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Hello,

What we do with my buddies is to STRICTLY apply the written rules and it works (but the power is simply less powerful) so:

1) A survivor CANNOT apply it to himself (it makes noise).

2) The target survivor CANNOT make noise nor attack before and after receiving this power.

So we mainly use it to save a player or to send him in "silent special mission".

GG
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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If you're strictly applying the rules of Rotten, the token is only granted at the end of the Survivor's turn. This means it's useless using Invisibility on a Survivor that already acted, as they will never gain the token in the first place!

So yeah, unfortunately, strict rules reading never worked on this one. You have to tweak things somewhere.
 
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GGleize wrote:
Hello,

What we do with my buddies is to STRICTLY apply the written rules and it works (but the power is simply less powerful) so:

1) A survivor CANNOT apply it to himself (it makes noise).

2) The target survivor CANNOT make noise nor attack before and after receiving this power.

So we mainly use it to save a player or to send him in "silent special mission".

GG


Not sure if this is what a strict interpretation would mean, but this is exactly how we play it, too
 
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Guillaume Gleize
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Clipper wrote:
If you're strictly applying the rules of Rotten, the token is only granted at the end of the Survivor's turn. This means it's useless using Invisibility on a Survivor that already acted, as they will never gain the token in the first place!

So yeah, unfortunately, strict rules reading never worked on this one. You have to tweak things somewhere.


Sorry I desagree (and hope the english translations of the rules didn't change anything in the meanings) but we apply the TEXT AND IT WORKS:

A survivor send the power to (only) another one who:
1) already played but didn't attack neither made any noise
2) did not already play but must not attack nor make noise

AND IT WORKS PERFECTLY AS THE ORIGINAL RULES WRITTEN!


Remember: This power is NOT made for to attack and desapear in our reading of the original rules, this power is useful to SAVE a player or to make SILENT special missions!
But when some players want to make this card too powerful: The problems and misunderstandings begin ... in our humble opinion.

(PS: What doesn't work for us is the new explanations given by the creators lol ... So we stick to the original text).

 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Perhaps there is indeed a difference in translation, as the English rules do not support your method.

The English card text for Invisibility is:
Invisibility - Card Text wrote:
Once per Turn. The targeted Survivor benefits of the Rotten Skill's effects until the end of the Game Round.


And the English rule for Rotten is:
Z:BP Rules wrote:
At the end of his Turn, if the Survivor
has not resolved a Combat Action (Melee,
Ranged or Magic) and not produced a Noise
token, place a Rotten token next to his base. As
long as he has this token, he is totally ignored
by all Zombies and is not considered a Noise token. Zombies
don’t attack him and will even walk past him. The Survivor
loses his Rotten token if he resolves any kind of Combat
Action (Melee, Ranged or Magic) or makes noise. Even with
the Rotten token, the Survivor still has to spend extra Actions
to move out of a Zone crowded with Zombies.


Applying these literally means that if Survivor A acts first then Survivor B casts Invisibility on Survivor A, Survivor A now has Rotten, but does not have the token. Survivor A cannot gain the token, as he will not experience the 'end of his Turn' until the next Game Round, and Invisibility ends at the end of the Game Round.

Having said that, I agree that the way you are playing the card is a great way to play it. It is not totally compliant with the English rules as written, though. Are the French rules somehow different so that the way you are playing allows a Survivor to become invisible after they have acted without contradiction?

 
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Guillaume Gleize
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Wait: "Until the end of the game round" for us here means that even if the target survivor already played, he can benefit of the effect of the power (as long as he didn't attack or made noise during his turn) in place of "at the end of his turn" ... We do not pretend to understand better than you the spirit of the creators (lol) but do you see what we mean?

Plus it's clearly written on the French version of the card that "If the target survivor makes any noise or attack" the charm is over". So our interpretation may be respecting the texts (at least the French ones)?

To answer your question now that I saw your English version, I think both texts are close and correct.

Anyway it's true that those two charms: "Invisibility" and "Repulse" (whatever their name in English sorry) are made to be strong and help the players against the final zombies riots but we surely must be sure no to overpower them ...

shake
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Your interpretation is fine, balance-wise. It is a simple and easy way to implement it that isn't broken like the official way to play it.

It's just that your claim that you were playing it strictly in the ways the rules were written was not 100% accurate. That doesn't make your method worse, as the strictly accurate way is too weak in my opinion.

The card was flawed in the way it was written from the start, making little to no sense. The fact they then made it worse via a ruling that makes it insanely powerful is just mind-boggling.
 
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Guillaume Gleize
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Well,

I must admit that after reading you and some other Americans and Europeans players, after reading the creators who wanted apparently to give some kind of power to this card and after re-reading the card itself again, I'm more and more tempted to give this card a slightly bigger power like:

1) ON THE OWNER HIMSELF: NO -> To avoid many absurd situations and with the (very poor) explanation that the text says on the card that (present or futur) noise or attack cancels the effects. So the present noise of the spell itself cancels the effects.

2) ON ANOTHER SURVIVOR WHO DIDN'T PLAY YET: YES -> But in the condition of not making noise nor attack for the same (still poor) reason of the text speaking about the (present and futur) noise or attack that cancels the effects.

3) ON ANOTHER SURVIVOR WHO ALREADY PLAYED: YES -> And EVEN if he did make noise or attacked for the (much more poor) reason that the text speaks about the "result" of the rotten and the (present and futur) conditions, but not about the past conditions.

ARF! zombie

This would stay in our spirit (no self use of this card) but would give it some little more power (hide another survivor after he fought or broke a door) ...

whistle
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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That is how I generally play the card. It removes the need to remember if the Survivor who acted earlier made any noise or not.

It does have a little bit of power this way, but probably not too much.

It also matches perfectly with the idea that you just give the Survivor you cast Invisibility on the Rotten token (not the Skill) until the end of the Game Round.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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GGleize wrote:
Well,

I must admit that after reading you and some other Americans and Europeans players, after reading the creators who wanted apparently to give some kind of power to this card and after re-reading the card itself again, I'm more and more tempted to give this card a slightly bigger power like:

1) ON THE OWNER HIMSELF: NO -> To avoid many absurd situations and with the (very poor) explanation that the text says on the card that (present or futur) noise or attack cancels the effects. So the present noise of the spell itself cancels the effects.

2) ON ANOTHER SURVIVOR WHO DIDN'T PLAY YET: YES -> But in the condition of not making noise nor attack for the same (still poor) reason of the text speaking about the (present and futur) noise or attack that cancels the effects.

3) ON ANOTHER SURVIVOR WHO ALREADY PLAYED: YES -> And EVEN if he did make noise or attacked for the (much more poor) reason that the text speaks about the "result" of the rotten and the (present and futur) conditions, but not about the past conditions.

ARF! zombie

This would stay in our spirit (no self use of this card) but would give it some little more power (hide another survivor after he fought or broke a door) ...

whistle

Exactly how we resolved to play too.
 
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Guillaume Gleize
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Great! So we agree guys (at least us three but isn't it enough lol?)

So TY for your clever advices and good luck for you next battles against those @#§%% zombies!

Humans forever!

1 
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Eric Harman
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My personal house rule is that it grants rotten exactly as written (if you've made noise or attacked you can't turn invisible) but also that the invisibility spell does not make noise.

That way you *can* cast it on yourself. But you can't kill a bunch of zombies and then use one action to become invincible.
 
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monte fraser
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so ANY survivor can get rotten if he makes no noise during his turn? but the player acts as a noise token..does rotten supersede this?
 
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Eric Harman
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Jackink wrote:
so ANY survivor can get rotten if he makes no noise during his turn? but the player acts as a noise token..does rotten supersede this?


I believe the language of rotten states *actions* that create noise or attacks.

Or something to that effect.
 
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