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Subject: There's no zealot like a convert... rss

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Mutton Chops
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What, I wonder, could induce someone to travel thousands of miles to another country, clad in the trappings of a culture so different in many ways to the one in which they were formed, to die violently and futilely, if not religion?

Irish jihadist 'Khalid Kelly' blows himself up in Isil suicide bombing near Mosul

So sad and pointless.
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Sad and pointless but not all radical ideologies are religious.
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Mutton Chops
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whac3 wrote:
Sad and pointless but not all radical ideologies are religious.
That's true. But I can't recall a non-religious ideology that condones, or even encourages, suicide.
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mutton_chops wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Sad and pointless but not all radical ideologies are religious.
That's true. But I can't recall a non-religious ideology that condones, or even encourages, suicide.


Does this count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido
 
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Mutton Chops
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darthhugo wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Sad and pointless but not all radical ideologies are religious.
That's true. But I can't recall a non-religious ideology that condones, or even encourages, suicide.


Does this count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido


I don't know enough about it to comment, really, but from what I can make out, it would seem suicides prompted by adherence to Bushido would almost exclusively be occasioned by loss of "honour", and directed solely towards oneself, not as a means of attacking others. I suppose Kamikaze would appear, on the face of it, to be an exception to this, but that seems to be a reactive rather than pro-active thing: not the hallmark of a thirst for martyrdom, but rather the desperate response of a culture which collectively felt its back was against the wall.

There is, though, a history in most cultures of those feeling great shame committing suicide, so perhaps what I should have said was that I couldn't recall a non-religious ideology that condones or encourages suicide as part of attacks on those who don't espouse that ideology.
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Mutton Chops
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Drew1365 wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
But I can't recall a non-religious ideology that condones, or even encourages, suicide.


Obamacare.


I'd rather hoped we might keep the reflexive drivelling on about the US election out of this thread, but I suppose I should have known better... <sigh>
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mutton_chops wrote:
What, I wonder, could induce someone to travel thousands of miles to another country, clad in the trappings of a culture so different in many ways to the one in which they were formed, to die violently and futilely, if not religion?


People who put the toilet paper roll on with the paper hanging under.

You asked, I answered.
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mutton_chops wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Sad and pointless but not all radical ideologies are religious.
That's true. But I can't recall a non-religious ideology that condones, or even encourages, suicide.


Does this count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido


I don't know enough about it to comment, really, but from what I can make out, it would seem suicides prompted by adherence to Bushido would almost exclusively be occasioned by loss of "honour", and directed solely towards oneself, not as a means of attacking others. I suppose Kamikaze would appear, on the face of it, to be an exception to this, but that seems to be a reactive rather than pro-active thing: not the hallmark of a thirst for martyrdom, but rather the desperate response of a culture which collectively felt its back was against the wall.

There is, though, a history in most cultures of those feeling great shame committing suicide, so perhaps what I should have said was that I couldn't recall a non-religious ideology that condones or encourages suicide as part of attacks on those who don't espouse that ideology.


In WW2, this code was bastardized by the Emperor and the military. Since I'm lazy, here is the ref to that period from the cited source. There are many excellent books written on this subject, so if interested, one should get those.

During pre-World War II and World War II Shōwa Japan, bushido was pressed into use for militarism,[16] to present war as purifying, and death a duty.[17] This was presented as revitalizing traditional values and "transcending the modern".[18] Bushido would provide a spiritual shield to let soldiers fight to the end.[19] As the war turned, the spirit of bushido was invoked to urge that all depended on the firm and united soul of the nation.[20] When the Battle of Attu was lost, attempts were made to make the more than two thousand Japanese deaths an inspirational epic for the fighting spirit of the nation.[21] Arguments that the plans for the Battle of Leyte Gulf, involving all Japanese ships, would expose Japan to serious danger if they failed, were countered with the plea that the Navy be permitted to "bloom as flowers of death".[22] The first proposals of organized suicide attacks met resistance because while bushido called for a warrior to be always aware of death, but not to view it as the sole end, but the desperate straits brought about acceptance.[23] Such attacks were acclaimed as the true spirit of bushido.[24]

Denials of mistreatment of prisoners of war declared that they were being well-treated by virtue of bushido generosity.[25] Broadcast interviews with prisoners were also described as being not propaganda but out of sympathy with the enemy, such sympathy as only bushido could inspire.[26]

The famous writer Yukio Mishima was outspoken in his by-then anachronistic commitment to bushido in the 1960s, until his ritual suicide by seppuku after a failed coup d'état in November 1970.

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darthhugo wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Sad and pointless but not all radical ideologies are religious.
That's true. But I can't recall a non-religious ideology that condones, or even encourages, suicide.


Does this count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido


Bushido is slightly different suicide was offered as an honourable way out to alleviate the individuals disgrace and dishonour falling on their famillies. Trump was not the first to come up with the idea of killing them all.


Edit like the knights code of Chivilary . it was largely added after the fact when Japan when most of the internal wars had largely ceased.
 
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Jon M
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mutton_chops wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Sad and pointless but not all radical ideologies are religious.
That's true. But I can't recall a non-religious ideology that condones, or even encourages, suicide.


Does this count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido


I don't know enough about it to comment, really, but from what I can make out, it would seem suicides prompted by adherence to Bushido would almost exclusively be occasioned by loss of "honour", and directed solely towards oneself, not as a means of attacking others. I suppose Kamikaze would appear, on the face of it, to be an exception to this, but that seems to be a reactive rather than pro-active thing: not the hallmark of a thirst for martyrdom, but rather the desperate response of a culture which collectively felt its back was against the wall.

There is, though, a history in most cultures of those feeling great shame committing suicide, so perhaps what I should have said was that I couldn't recall a non-religious ideology that condones or encourages suicide as part of attacks on those who don't espouse that ideology.


There is a long history of military "suicide missions" and individuals in essence taking on suicidal odds with not a care for whether they live or die. This spans the ages and different cultures from the 300 to Iwo Jima.
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Mutton Chops
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Jon_1066 wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Sad and pointless but not all radical ideologies are religious.
That's true. But I can't recall a non-religious ideology that condones, or even encourages, suicide.


Does this count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido


I don't know enough about it to comment, really, but from what I can make out, it would seem suicides prompted by adherence to Bushido would almost exclusively be occasioned by loss of "honour", and directed solely towards oneself, not as a means of attacking others. I suppose Kamikaze would appear, on the face of it, to be an exception to this, but that seems to be a reactive rather than pro-active thing: not the hallmark of a thirst for martyrdom, but rather the desperate response of a culture which collectively felt its back was against the wall.

There is, though, a history in most cultures of those feeling great shame committing suicide, so perhaps what I should have said was that I couldn't recall a non-religious ideology that condones or encourages suicide as part of attacks on those who don't espouse that ideology.


There is a long history of military "suicide missions" and individuals in essence taking on suicidal odds with not a care for whether they live or die. This spans the ages and different cultures from the 300 to Iwo Jima.


Agreed, but I'd argue that's not an ideological thing per se, but a product of extreme circumstances and/or a sense of duty or shame, and against one's instincts towards self-preservation, as opposed to pursuing death willingly and deliberately when other options are eminently available, because one's beliefs tell one it's the right thing to do - and, crucially, that one will somehow, in fact, not only survive, but actually be in a "better world". For that latter, you really do need religion.
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Tom McVey
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Well, the good news is that "Irish terrorist bomber" no longer means the Europa Hotel got bombed for the umpteenth time...
 
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If this wasn't real and tragic it would feel like a bad joke.
 
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Adam Alleman
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Drew1365 wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
But I can't recall a non-religious ideology that condones, or even encourages, suicide.


Obamacare.


Exactly why we need to eliminate the private corporations that run our health care. If corporations are people than they are psychopaths.
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mutton_chops wrote:
What, I wonder, could induce someone to travel thousands of miles to another country, clad in the trappings of a culture so different in many ways to the one in which they were formed, to die violently and futilely, if not religion?


Hate? Anger? Frustration? I can think of lots of reasons - he used a truck, but maybe religion was also merely the vehicle in this case?
 
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Jon M
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mutton_chops wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
...
There is a long history of military "suicide missions" and individuals in essence taking on suicidal odds with not a care for whether they live or die. This spans the ages and different cultures from the 300 to Iwo Jima.


Agreed, but I'd argue that's not an ideological thing per se, but a product of extreme circumstances and/or a sense of duty or shame, and against one's instincts towards self-preservation, as opposed to pursuing death willingly and deliberately when other options are eminently available, because one's beliefs tell one it's the right thing to do - and, crucially, that one will somehow, in fact, not only survive, but actually be in a "better world". For that latter, you really do need religion.


But the suicide bombers are in a society that levers those emotions - duty and shame. How do you know this wasn't the prime driver in this case? Once you are in then the sense of duty to carry it out and sense of shame if you failed is very similar to the Kamikazes of WWII. The religion may be an additional motivator or sop to help them follow through but a death cult doesn't necessarily need religion.
 
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Mutton Chops
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gamesterinns wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
What, I wonder, could induce someone to travel thousands of miles to another country, clad in the trappings of a culture so different in many ways to the one in which they were formed, to die violently and futilely, if not religion?


Hate? Anger? Frustration? I can think of lots of reasons - he used a truck, but maybe religion was also merely the vehicle in this case?


In what way? And how does one separate out the hate and anger, etc., from the philosophy that enables and encourages it...? Terry Kelly was not an emotionally stable man...why was that? Could very early experiences of religion from the Catholic church have input to his state of mind, perhaps?Maybe the imprint of such inculcation left him with a need to abdicate responsibility for his poor choices to an imagined higher authority.
 
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Mutton Chops
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Jon_1066 wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
...
There is a long history of military "suicide missions" and individuals in essence taking on suicidal odds with not a care for whether they live or die. This spans the ages and different cultures from the 300 to Iwo Jima.


Agreed, but I'd argue that's not an ideological thing per se, but a product of extreme circumstances and/or a sense of duty or shame, and against one's instincts towards self-preservation, as opposed to pursuing death willingly and deliberately when other options are eminently available, because one's beliefs tell one it's the right thing to do - and, crucially, that one will somehow, in fact, not only survive, but actually be in a "better world". For that latter, you really do need religion.


But the suicide bombers are in a society that levers those emotions - duty and shame.


I disagree. The sense of "duty" felt by the Kamikaze pilots (if you read their own accounts) is clearly not the same as the almost euphoric excitement exhibited by Jihadis. I would argue the difference is the idea that a certain destiny in paradise awaits the latter (in their view).

Jon_1066 wrote:
How do you know this wasn't the prime driver in this case?


Because Terry Kelly never felt any duty towards anyone except himself, and I don't doubt that somewhere inside he may have felt something akin to shame, but his overweening narcissism would have simply sublimated that into a conviction that he was right to be fighting for his god against the evils of his former life.
 
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mutton_chops wrote:
That's true. But I can't recall a non-religious ideology that condones, or even encourages, suicide.


Nationalism?



Germany must live even if we must die.

From the Warrior's Memorial, put up in 1934 by a group of WWI veterans, in Hamburg.
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