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Subject: If An Empire Shield Generator Were Added What Would You Want It to Do? rss

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David Umstattd
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Since there are so many general and generic expansion threads I'm going to continue with specific threads on specific ideas that people feel the game might need.


Namely, the empire's shield generator from ROTJ. There are two questions here:

1. Does the game need something like this added to the empire?

2. What would it look like if it were added?


I think a lot of people think that the Construct Second Death Star card is rather underwhelming given the potential liability in regards to The DS. Personally I think they are over hyping the problem. Usually when the rebels attack the DS it's after using a hidden fleet or Plan the Assault which can jump onto or next to the DS regardless of the DS position. And the likelyhood of the rebels pulling off two DSP objectives I feel is highly unlikely.

so I think if the shield generator were to be added it would have to have more general use. Definitely not a benefit unique to the DS or DSUC.

I would suggest making it stronger than the ion cannon or rebel shield generator. This should be a project card (probably only one copy) that allows you to protect a specific system's space units. Possibly helpful for protecting a vulnerable ISD from Rebel Assault. Or for protecting a DS you think is vulnerable to DSP.

Two space tactic cards a turn may be too strong. perhaps it allows you to change one opponents die to a blank side every combat round (and can include the DSP turn) so not an instant "You can't hurt me" unit but something that makes space attacks much harder.

It SHOULD NOT be a new orange square unit. The empire has no choice when it comes to production and this is by design. Empire production takes forever as is and adding decisions in there would just make things cumbersome af.


Personally I think a defensive based unit for the empire wouldn't be seen as very useful for the way the empire plays. The empire is meant to be played aggressively. So I think the facility should have some other additional function at the very least. Like (since it's a research station) it increases the empire's mission hand size (something I think the empire is in need of since they commonly are forced to discard)

This is something that should be able to be built quickly. The only stipulation would be "resolve in a system with imperial ground units." so it's a facility you can pop up anywhere in a pintch to help out an in danger system. The problem is due to the rebel's ability to first strike it would only work as a preemptive move. And since structures can't move it'd have limited utility (hence why I think it should increase empire hand size.)


What do you guys think? A lot of people have just generally suggested that it be added to the game but how do you suggest it work specifically? What is the empire lacking right now that this new unit would solve? Is it even needed? Discuss.


EDIT: Apparently there is a significant portion of the BBG community that abhors coming up with feedback on enhancements to the mechanics and analysis of missing lore. If you find yourself in this camp kindly take a long walk off a short pier and stop spamming this thread with off topic crap.
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Clinton Rice
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I would want the shield generator to defend BGG from threads of speculation and rumors about hypothetical unannounced expansions. I honestly don't think any are planned. Or needed.
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Jason Sherlock
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KoalaXav wrote:
I would want the shield generator to defend BGG from threads of speculation and rumors about hypothetical unannounced expansions. I honestly don't think any are planned. Or needed.


This is FFG that we are dealing with. Of course there will be expansions. Most likely the shield generator will be in the first (of probably many) expansion sets.

Oh, wait, you were being snarky, and probably weren't wanting a reply. Moving on.
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Clinton Rice
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jackalope wrote:
KoalaXav wrote:
I would want the shield generator to defend BGG from threads of speculation and rumors about hypothetical unannounced expansions. I honestly don't think any are planned. Or needed.


This is FFG that we are dealing with. Of course there will be expansions. Most likely the shield generator will be in the first (of probably many) expansion sets.

Oh, wait, you were being snarky, and probably weren't wanting a reply. Moving on.


There are reasons to think that an expansion (while possible) is not guaranteed. The product code is one of them. The fact that the game has been out six months and hasn't had one announced yet (even though there is a major theatrical Star Wars release in the next few weeks) is another.

And just because I'm being snarky doesn't mean I'm not ready to defend my ground reasonably.

This game is massively expansive. And very complicated. It does not need more complication.

But look at it this way. Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition came out in I think...September. This game has already had two packaged rereleases, digital expansions, and a recently announced brand new expansion. All of this announced in three months. Some of it announced before the game was on the shelves.

Rebellion was released in May. Read the writing on the walls. Expansions are not a sure thing. I am not saying they can't or won't happen. But people need to stop acting like they absolutely are.
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KoalaXav wrote:
The fact that the game has been out six months and hasn't had one announced yet (even though there is a major theatrical Star Wars release in the next few weeks) is another.

There have been several FFG games where expansions were not announced within 6 months. TI3 for one, as well as Runewars.

Quote:
This game is massively expansive. And very complicated. It does not need more complication.

I'm not sure I agree that this game is "very complicated". There are complexities, but the overall workings are relatively simple compared to other games of its length.


jackalope wrote:
Most likely the shield generator will be in the first (of probably many) expansion sets.

I'm not sure there will be "probably many". FFGs epic games typically have had fewer expansions. TI3 only had 2 (and the second was announced many years after the first expansion), Runewars only had 1. Starcraft only had 1. World of Warcraft had 2 (and one was a small one).

I could see this game getting zero expansions, or one, maybe two. I just don't see this one being a game that gets endless expansions. It doesn't seem built for that model.
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I really hope there are not any expansions, and I don't know whether they will happen or not.

The chance that they will realese additional components/rules for this game without screwing up the balance are so slim....

The one expansion I could see is a shorter scenario...


Anyway, to answer the OP's 2nd question:

It should be a project card that places it on a planet with Imperial ground troops (without any rebel unit in the system), the system can be remote tho.
The ability should either cancel the Rebel leaders tactic values or the ability to use tactic cards.

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Three Headed Monkey
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Nice idea jooice. Something not inherently tied to the Death Star is what I was thinking too. Perhaps forcing the Rebel player to re-roll all direct hits? I don't think it is a huge effect as it's a 1 in 6 chance of rolling it to begin with, and it also protects the DS from Death Star Plans a bit too.
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Witold G
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Three Headed Monkey wrote:
I don't think it is a huge effect as it's a 1 in 6 chance of rolling it to begin with, and it also protects the DS from Death Star Plans a bit too.


Just so you know, that would drop the chance of destroying the DS in a single trench run to ~8.10%...
 
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Mattias Elfström
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KoalaXav wrote:
This game is massively expansive. And very complicated. It does not need more complication.


Funny. I'd say this is a quite simple game, great for introducing people to meatier fare.

A few expansions would be nice, but not essential.
 
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Billy Babel
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I'd simply want to make it switch the focus of the death star battle from space to ground. You have to now win the ground battle to blow up the death star.
 
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Matthieu Fontaines
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So, why not simply : "each turn, Imperial player may choose to play or not the space battle, as long as no rebel troops are present unchallenged on ground"
 
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David Umstattd
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This thread is not a discussion on if an expansion will be made. This is a discussion on if there is the specific need for a imperial shield generator mechanic.

So please stay on topic. Posting spam is a violation of BGG rules.
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David Umstattd
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BillyBabel wrote:
I'd simply want to make it switch the focus of the death star battle from space to ground. You have to now win the ground battle to blow up the death star.


I think we agree on that as the goal of the unit but what should be the specifics? It should be something that has general use in multiple circumstances (not just for the DS) but a "capital ships and space stations can't take damage) might be too powerful. However if it's a single, once per game unit that requires a project card and maybe construction time that makes some sense.


Basically what I'm saying is don't get tunnel vision on the DSUC. Good lore based game design revolves around analyzing what could have happened and what people thought could happen as much as what did happen.
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David Umstattd
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Three Headed Monkey wrote:
Nice idea jooice. Something not inherently tied to the Death Star is what I was thinking too. Perhaps forcing the Rebel player to re-roll all direct hits? I don't think it is a huge effect as it's a 1 in 6 chance of rolling it to begin with, and it also protects the DS from Death Star Plans a bit too.


This I like but it doesn't protect the DSUC from just normally being destroyed like we saw in the film. Which is why I think it should be related maybe to blocking black hits.

Though making it something that also counters DSP may be a really good idea. Sure you can protect your DS by stationing it over a planet but to use the DS you have to move it from out of your place with the shield generator.
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David Umstattd
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jooice wrote:


It should be a project card that places it on a planet with Imperial ground troops (without any rebel unit in the system), the system can be remote tho.
The ability should either cancel the Rebel leaders tactic values or the ability to use tactic cards.



I like the idea of "your opponent cannot play space tactics cards" as this doesn't prevent your opponent from drawing them. And this simulates the "oh we have all these tricks we can pull if we can just take down that shield generator" feeling that the film had while also having universal use.
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This was discussed at length in this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1665528/more-thematic-dsuc-..., but my answer is the same:

Quote:

I think that's a decent idea, but maybe a shield generator should be a project card. When played, the Rebels could put a shield bunker mini on a planet over which a DSUC is located. As an additional price to this, I do like the idea of moving the DS back one space on the build track.

The generator could protect the DSUC as long as it was alive, but it would behave like any other structure in the game (defeated if no other friendly ground units on system).

I don't like the idea of automatically giving the DSUC defensive units to protect the generator. If the Empire wants to devote resources to protecting it, they need to reallocate what they already have.
 
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Subtrendy Gaming wrote:
This was discussed at length in this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1665528/more-thematic-dsuc-..., but my answer is the same:

Quote:

I think that's a decent idea, but maybe a shield generator should be a project card. When played, the Rebels could put a shield bunker mini on a planet over which a DSUC is located. As an additional price to this, I do like the idea of moving the DS back one space on the build track.

The generator could protect the DSUC as long as it was alive, but it would behave like any other structure in the game (defeated if no other friendly ground units on system).

I don't like the idea of automatically giving the DSUC defensive units to protect the generator. If the Empire wants to devote resources to protecting it, they need to reallocate what they already have.


Untrue. That was a discussion about giving the DSUC free ground troops and adding some rule about needing to defeat those in order to do damage to the DSUC which is a horrendous idea that's is specific to the DSUC which in this thread we've established shouldn't be the case. This is a discussion of the specific unit of the imperial Shield Generator and how it would need to interact with all units in order to be a useful expansion to the game. that was a thread on the DSUC which the shield generator should only be tangentially related to.
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Saro Gumusyan

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I had a crazy thought, what if the Empire had the option of building the Death Star II on it's own hidden remote system based on probe cards in hand? This would depend on drawing the right remote systems early on so that it's not in a poorly located corner.

If the Imperial player finds a worthy system he places the DSUC on BQ3 along with the probe card underneath it on the side (like the Rebel Base location). Once the DS is ready it is deployed to that system and the card returns to the Imperial player's probe hand.

Of course the Rebel player can force a reveal with a ground or space unit, and the Imperial player could reinforce or bluff reinforcement if necessary.
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Darth Coupon wrote:
I had a crazy thought, what if the Empire had the option of building the Death Star II on it's own hidden remote system based on probe cards in hand? This would depend on drawing the right remote systems early on so that it's not in a poorly located corner.

If the Imperial player finds a worthy system he places the DSUC on BQ3 along with the probe card underneath it on the side (like the Rebel Base location). Once the DS is ready it is deployed to that system and the card returns to the Imperial player's probe hand.

Of course the Rebel player can force a reveal with a ground or space unit, and the Imperial player could reinforce or bluff reinforcement if necessary.


That is actually a great idea!!! You can add that an infiltration mission if succesful reveals it too when its in the same system.
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Saro Gumusyan

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Arontje wrote:
Darth Coupon wrote:
I had a crazy thought, what if the Empire had the option of building the Death Star II on it's own hidden remote system based on probe cards in hand? This would depend on drawing the right remote systems early on so that it's not in a poorly located corner.

If the Imperial player finds a worthy system he places the DSUC on BQ3 along with the probe card underneath it on the side (like the Rebel Base location). Once the DS is ready it is deployed to that system and the card returns to the Imperial player's probe hand.

Of course the Rebel player can force a reveal with a ground or space unit, and the Imperial player could reinforce or bluff reinforcement if necessary.


That is actually a great idea!!! You can add that an infiltration mission if succesful reveals it too when its in the same system.


Thanks, I agree there should be a way for the Rebels (Bothan spies) to uncover the location of the Death Star, maybe infiltrating in the same region as the Death Star II?
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Arontje wrote:
Darth Coupon wrote:
I had a crazy thought, what if the Empire had the option of building the Death Star II on it's own hidden remote system based on probe cards in hand? This would depend on drawing the right remote systems early on so that it's not in a poorly located corner.

If the Imperial player finds a worthy system he places the DSUC on BQ3 along with the probe card underneath it on the side (like the Rebel Base location). Once the DS is ready it is deployed to that system and the card returns to the Imperial player's probe hand.

Of course the Rebel player can force a reveal with a ground or space unit, and the Imperial player could reinforce or bluff reinforcement if necessary.


That is actually a great idea!!! You can add that an infiltration mission if successful reveals it too when its in the same system.


I like this idea too.
A destruction of the DSUC should then be worth reputation points.

However awesome this idea is most Imperial players don't want a 2nd DS, why would they go down this route to build another?
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jooice wrote:
Arontje wrote:
Darth Coupon wrote:
I had a crazy thought, what if the Empire had the option of building the Death Star II on it's own hidden remote system based on probe cards in hand? This would depend on drawing the right remote systems early on so that it's not in a poorly located corner.

If the Imperial player finds a worthy system he places the DSUC on BQ3 along with the probe card underneath it on the side (like the Rebel Base location). Once the DS is ready it is deployed to that system and the card returns to the Imperial player's probe hand.

Of course the Rebel player can force a reveal with a ground or space unit, and the Imperial player could reinforce or bluff reinforcement if necessary.


That is actually a great idea!!! You can add that an infiltration mission if successful reveals it too when its in the same system.


I like this idea too.
A destruction of the DSUC should then be worth reputation points.

However awesome this idea is most Imperial players don't want a 2nd DS, why would they go down this route to build another?


Because its harder to shoot iT cause its not in plain sight. But maybe a reputation point loss can be doe think too as Some other Said.
 
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Saro Gumusyan

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jooice wrote:
Arontje wrote:
Darth Coupon wrote:
I had a crazy thought, what if the Empire had the option of building the Death Star II on it's own hidden remote system based on probe cards in hand? This would depend on drawing the right remote systems early on so that it's not in a poorly located corner.

If the Imperial player finds a worthy system he places the DSUC on BQ3 along with the probe card underneath it on the side (like the Rebel Base location). Once the DS is ready it is deployed to that system and the card returns to the Imperial player's probe hand.

Of course the Rebel player can force a reveal with a ground or space unit, and the Imperial player could reinforce or bluff reinforcement if necessary.


That is actually a great idea!!! You can add that an infiltration mission if successful reveals it too when its in the same system.


I like this idea too.
A destruction of the DSUC should then be worth reputation points.

However awesome this idea is most Imperial players don't want a 2nd DS, why would they go down this route to build another?


Fair question, I was just spitballing a way for the Empire to build another DS with secrecy as a means of protection. It could also work with existing mechanics.

One carrot that should be added to the second DS should be the dread associated with an even bigger technological terror. How about a free loyalty in the region once it's deployed?
 
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Darth Coupon wrote:
jooice wrote:
Arontje wrote:
Darth Coupon wrote:
I had a crazy thought, what if the Empire had the option of building the Death Star II on it's own hidden remote system based on probe cards in hand? This would depend on drawing the right remote systems early on so that it's not in a poorly located corner.

If the Imperial player finds a worthy system he places the DSUC on BQ3 along with the probe card underneath it on the side (like the Rebel Base location). Once the DS is ready it is deployed to that system and the card returns to the Imperial player's probe hand.

Of course the Rebel player can force a reveal with a ground or space unit, and the Imperial player could reinforce or bluff reinforcement if necessary.


That is actually a great idea!!! You can add that an infiltration mission if successful reveals it too when its in the same system.


I like this idea too.
A destruction of the DSUC should then be worth reputation points.

However awesome this idea is most Imperial players don't want a 2nd DS, why would they go down this route to build another?


Fair question, I was just spitballing a way for the Empire to build another DS with secrecy as a means of protection. It could also work with existing mechanics.

One carrot that should be added to the second DS should be the dread associated with an even bigger technological terror. How about a free loyalty in the region once it's deployed?


Except that it is on a remote system that doesn't have loyalty. Having it on a Populous system would enable imperial deployment, which is too easy to protect the DSUC
 
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I was thinking it could be a system in the same region, to simulate the effect of Superlaser Online.
 
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