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Subject: [Solved] Council Dissolved mechanics rss

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Philippe Castonguay
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Hello,

I was playing a game last night (on VASSAL) and I played the Political Strategy Card. My opponent played "Council Dissolved" and we did what we could to work through it.

I had the lions share of Influence and am likely to keep it through the next couple turns so, my two enemies are against me having any political power.

How we played was this: I declared I was going to use the Political Card, and my friend played his Action Card. I had no means of stopping this. So, I drew 3 action cards, took a CC, and then did not resolve an agenda.

At this point, we were unclear. For clarity, the Action Card states:

Quote:
The player who chose the Political Strategy does not draw a Political Card.


I took two potential meanings.

A: I do not draw _A_ Political card (thus no agenda is resolved) and the effects of the card are resolved. At this point, we continue down the Political Strategy Card, where I draw 3 Political Cards, put 1 on top, 2 on bottom.


B: I do not draw a Political card, at all. Meaning that I don't draw one for an agenda, and I continue not to draw one (for re-arranging the Political landscape) for the remainder of the Political event.

As explained later, B is the official ruling by a FFG member. The reasoning is that there was no resolution of an agenda so the remainder of the Political Card is ignored.


Both of my enemies opted for B, I benefited the most from A and felt it was a reasonable assumption (The card could be written "The player who chose the Political Strategy does not draw Political cardS" if it was meant to mean B)

We are playing on VASSAL and played 1 round, so the Political Deck is still in state (for the next week) that we can retroactively re-work the deck.

I would need to find hard evidence though, not interpretations. (though opinions are welcome) and even then, the ruling may not be overturned.

I've checked the FAQ quickly (I will revisit it) but I do not think it is detailed there.

Thank you in advance,

-Phil
 
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Philippe Castonguay
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
For reference, the Political Card:

Quote:
Draw three Action Cards and receive one Command Counter from your reinforcements. Then draw the top card of the Political Deck and resolve its agenda. After completing the agenda, draw the top three cards of the Political Deck, secretly read them, and then place one card face down on the top of the deck and the rest face down on the bottom of the deck


It is possible that by the wording "After completing the agenda,..." the requirements to do what follows is not met if the Action Card "Council Dissolved" is played, since the agenda is not completed. This would be a point for the case of B. However, it states that the agenda must be completed. In the rules, the actual act of going through the agenda is the act of "resolving". It may be that a completed agenda occurs after the agenda is resolved or skipped by an action card.
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Jonathan Folkert
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
Option A is clearly the intent of the card, although I understand how rules lawyers could see otherwise.
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Philippe Castonguay
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
Thanks for the support. They are just jealous I took MR first turn. Do you know of any evidence to back this, or why you would come to this conclusion?

Thanks again,

-Phil
 
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Scott Lewis
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
KirovThug wrote:
Option A is clearly the intent of the card, although I understand how rules lawyers could see otherwise.

Not sure I agree it's "clear" at all.

The thematics behind the card (which obviously aren't necessarily a solid basis, but can give some guidance) is that the council disbands. The question is, when they meet again, are they picking up where they left off (ie, voting for the previous law/policy that was on the agenda) or do they scrap the old agenda and start anew.

IE, was the card intended to act as a possible de-facto veto, or just a delay? And I don't think the answer to that question is clear, as both interpretations seem equally valid to me.
 
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Philippe Castonguay
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
Thanks for weighing in, hope all is well Sigma.

I agree that sometimes the thematics can be telling, but in this case there really isn't a lot to go on. Generally in the real world, when we dissolve a council, it means that all the council members are dismissed and the gate is left open for another group of council members. This can occur (in Canada) at the end of a 4-year run, or when there is a loss when trying to pass an important bill. I would argue, that if the agenda that was on the table (albeit it was never seen in our game, except by the last person to play the Political card) was cause to dissolve the council, it is unlikely that the very SAME bill or agenda would be pending after a new council arrives.

I know that most people are playing with the "Council Disbanded" card rather than this one, so maybe that's why it's not discussed more, the disbanded card is clear. We can glean some information from the "Council Disbanded" card. The card nullifies all effects of the PRIMARY and SECONDARY ability. Since the person using the card is no doubt a candidate for the secondary ability (short of being without sufficient CCs) the user of the card figures it is better to deny the active player their goods, the agenda, myself, and everyone else the benefits of this card. Granted, the active player still gets some goods with the "Dissolved" card, but does the following action occur? Thus denying them even more, without a consequence to the player who is using the action card?

Again, this could be worded much better, for example "The player who chose the Political Strategy does not draw ANY Political CardS."

I must stress that it doesn't appear that the use of the letter _A_ was an oversight.

This isn't an edge case where multiple rules, laws, action cards, etc. are in play, this is supposed to directly relate to a specific (very regular) event in TI3. If I take it literally, I find myself leaning towards A, but I can't be certain this was the intent. Even with my prejudice to the situation, I must say it is ambiguous and I don't have much ground to argue one way or the other, considering I have the most to gain but the least support.

 
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Scott Lewis
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
pcaston2 wrote:
I would argue, that if the agenda that was on the table (albeit it was never seen in our game, except by the last person to play the Political card) was cause to dissolve the council, it is unlikely that the very SAME bill or agenda would be pending after a new council arrives.

If the council was dissolved due to some external "emergency" (and not due to stalling on the agenda), they would more likely pick up where they left off when the reconvene. IE, if a snowstorm prevented them from gathering, they would't say "well, we were going to vote on XYZ last time, but since the snowstorm stopped us, let's scrap that, and move on."

That's where the ambiguity of this card comes from - what's causing the dissolution of the council?

The card's wording itself is unclear either way. Unless an official ruling is made, each group would just have to make their own decision when it comes up.

pcaston2 wrote:
I must stress that it doesn't appear that the use of the letter _A_ was an oversight.

What makes you think that? While I love TI3, the wording of MANY aspects of the game is inconsistent. For example, the use of "turn" vs "round". So I don't think you could say with certainty that the wording itself was or was not an oversight. The text in this game is rife with oversights.
 
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Philippe Castonguay
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
I believe councils are only dissolved when the same council does not intend to be reconvened. (So an external emergency might delay, but I don't think it would dissolve) If the emergency were to wipe out the council, it may be dissolved before another group was brought in. I'm saying it generally would suggest a change of people, and with that change, a change in politics. It's not clear-cut by any means, but I might lean that way, or at least argue that it must be 50-50.

And yes, the language in TI3 is fairly loose, often requiring revisions, house rules, interpretation, I've seen a lot of that on the forums. It's possible the _A_ was an oversight, but it is an _A_ for now, and without any further clarification in FAQs, living rulebooks, etc. It's what we have.

If you do go with option B though, and this is a stretch, but you could also say that no one may never again draw a political card. By activating the political card, regardless of who it is, they do not get to draw a political card.

This is ridiculous, of course, but it highlights the fact that the card doesn't live on indefinitely, it has it's effect and is gone. It's not a law, it's an instantaneous interaction.

It still is possible that the instantaneous action applies to the agenda, and the other political cards (They could have said "...doesn't draw a political card as an agenda" if they meant just the one) but all we have is the words that are written.

I happen to believe that after the first card from the political deck is not drawn, during the political primary action phase, that the effects of the card have been satisfied, it is discarded, and we continue down the road. It may be that the road ends there, because the bump in the road stopped us from continuing. I don't know.

We played the way we did, with option B, and unless something concrete occurs, that will likely be the way it stays.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
pcaston2 wrote:
If you do go with option B though, and this is a stretch, but you could also say that no one may never again draw a political card. By activating the political card, regardless of who it is, they do not get to draw a political card.

This is ridiculous, of course, but it highlights the fact that the card doesn't live on indefinitely, it has it's effect and is gone. It's not a law, it's an instantaneous interaction.

True, but I think having it in effect for the duration of the strategy card execution is plausible.

I personally would go for B also, but I can't be sure what the intent was as-written
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Starkiller
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
To me, the question is very simple:

Does the Action Card say (LAW) on it?
(It's an action card, and none of them do.)

If it doesn't say (LAW), it's not a continuing political affect. IMO.

So, the way I see it, the active player would not draw a PC, consequently there would be no voting this round. The rest of the Political SC (taking AC, etc) would be completed. Next round the Political SC would continue as normal.

I mean, how many of the AC have lingering affects?

 
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Scott Lewis
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
akinfantryman wrote:
I mean, how many of the AC have lingering affects?

Some of these linger longer than others, but they all have non-instant effects:

A Beacon of Hope
Armistice
Communications Breakdown
Cultural Crisis
Diplomatic Immunity
Dug In
Enhanced Armor
Experimental Weaponry
Fighter Prototype
Flanking Tactic
Grand Armada
Into the Breach
Military Foresight
Morale Boost
Moving Speech
Productivity Spike
Scientist Assassination
Spacedock Accident
Strategic Planning
Temporary Stability
Thugs
Usurper
War Footing
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Starkiller
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
sigmazero13 wrote:
akinfantryman wrote:
I mean, how many of the AC have lingering affects?

Some of these linger longer than others, but they all have non-instant effects:

A Beacon of Hope
Armistice
Communications Breakdown
Cultural Crisis
Diplomatic Immunity
Dug In
Enhanced Armor
Experimental Weaponry
Fighter Prototype
Flanking Tactic
Grand Armada
Into the Breach
Military Foresight
Morale Boost
Moving Speech
Productivity Spike
Scientist Assassination
Spacedock Accident
Strategic Planning
Temporary Stability
Thugs
Usurper
War Footing

I stand corrected.

Apparently I don't know the AC deck very well.modestshakeblush

I would add I still think the intent/wording is only one round.
I will concede it is not as clear as I initially thought.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
pcaston2 wrote:
I believe councils are only dissolved when the same council does not intend to be reconvened. (So an external emergency might delay, but I don't think it would dissolve) If the emergency were to wipe out the council, it may be dissolved before another group was brought in. I'm saying it generally would suggest a change of people, and with that change, a change in politics. It's not clear-cut by any means, but I might lean that way, or at least argue that it must be 50-50.


Are you arguing this point on natural language? Because actually you are wrong, at least in British English.

The normal part of tense is actually the Dissolution of X, rather than Dissolving X, but that aside - the Dissolution of Parliament occurs every summer before the summer recess for example. Every Christmas, before every election.

Some googling later, the same language is used in Australia, although in Canada they do use Dissolved, so maybe that's a North-Americanism. What I've not been able to get clarity on is whether you use that nomenclature in Canada just for elections (which would be what gives your view of new people coming in) or for every time the body moves out of session, as over here.

Anyway, long story short, I don't think 'Dissolved' in any way implies not being reconvened, and not reconsidering a motion later.

I'm not certain it doesn't mean that either, I'm just saying the language doesn't give a strong implication either way - it definitely wants a ruling.

 
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Philippe Castonguay
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
The debate is mainly regarding these lines:

Quote:
...Then draw the top card of the Political Deck and resolve its agenda.


This line, it is clear, should be affected by the card, there's no real issue with this bit. The question becomes, is the following portion of the political card affected by the cards wording

Quote:
After completing the agenda, draw the top three cards of the Political Deck, secretly read them, and then place one card face down on the top of the deck and the rest face down on the bottom of the deck


So would

Quote:
...does not draw a Political Card.


Affect both parts, or just the former.
 
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Martin DeOlden
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
pcaston2 wrote:

I would need to find hard evidence though, not interpretations. (though opinions are welcome) and even then, the ruling may not be overturned.

-Phil


For this you would have to email the question off to FFG for an official answer to the question.

from the looks of this thread we could all use an official answer on this one.

My own way of play has always done your option B where no agenda was ran and no Political cards were drawn to be set up for next round.
 
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Philippe Castonguay
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
@Kelanen I think I lost myself and everyone else going down the rabbit hole that is the title of this card. It's a nice, thematic phrase. Unfortunately, I don't think it fits well with what the card does, and I don't think it's a good indicator of what we should expect of the card. Playing this strategy card is as political as I get (meaning not at all) so I don't have much ground aside from what I've gathered over the years and a little bit of Googling.

I'll just agree that it could lean one way or another. Originally the point was made that it might lean closer to B, so I was making the argument that you could use the same logic to say it may support A (if it can be used to argue both sides, then it is likely not a very good piece of evidence).

Thanks for weighing in
 
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
akinfantryman wrote:

I would add I still think the intent/wording is only one round.

I agree it's definitely only one round. I think the question is, does it just mean "don't draw the card to vote on", or does it also affect the part of "draw 2, put one on top, one on bottom for next time". Both are part of the same resolution of the Political strategy card.
 
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Philippe Castonguay
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
I might have confused the issue by saying the card COULD be thought to apply for the rest of the game (it's ridiculous but technically the card doesn't say it doesn't do that... devils advocate kind of thing)

I've submitted a request for a ruling to FFG and if I hear anything I'll get back. Open to keeping the talk going though.
 
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Philippe Castonguay
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Re: Council Dissolved mechanics
Hey everyone,

I got a response from FFG's Dane Beltrami.

In short, the response was B. I hope he doesn't mind, but I'll quote parts of the message.

Technical
Dane Beltrami wrote:

...however, you would not draw the three cards and rearrange them. The timing of ‘After completing the agenda’ does not trigger in this case, and the effect that follows it is not resolved.

Thematic
Dane Beltrami wrote:

If you take into account the theme of the flavor text and not just the title, I believe this also fits the flavor of the card. I would say that you are unable to sow any devious seeds for the next council on account of no council members being present to scheme with due to the threat of a bomb in the area, but the same council will reconvene later once the threat has passed.


Thanks for the official ruling Dane!
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Scott Lewis
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pcaston2 wrote:
I hope he doesn't mind, but I'll quote parts of the message.

I'm sure he doesn't. Even if his email says something about "confidential" or whatever, I'm pretty sure that's just a standard signature on his email. I get those all the time from some of my friends and fellow referees.
 
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