$15.00
$5.00
$30.00
$20.00
Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
65 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Terra Mystica» Forums » Organized Play

Subject: Tournament frustration about the metagame, and proposed balance changes. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Gambia
Brest
msg tools
Tournament picks always revolve around the same factions. At higher leagues, they can be categorized into tiers.

God tier:
Engineers (assuming no green nor red is picked)

Tier I:
Darklings, Mermaids, Swarmlings, Nomads

Tier II:
Alchemists, Halflings, Cultists, Chaos Magicians, Witches, Dwarves

Tier III:
Giants, Fakirs, Auren

Tier I factions are strong factions that are often picked. Tier II factions are mostly picked when the setup is particularly good for them. Whereas Tier III factions are weak and are almost never picked.

Im my opinion, this meta contains some frustrating points:

1 - Engineers are either most of the time unstoppable if neither green or red is picked, or either the green/red pick and Engineers will both have a burdened start.

2 - 4th seat sometimes don't have good options

3 - Tier III factions are never a good choice

To answer these points, it looks natural to buff Auren and/or Giants in a way that would give them more resiliency to grey.


A) So I suggest to fill Auren's lack of special ability with this one :

"Because of their selfishness, the spirit of the forest doesn't allow Auren to transform a hex into the home terrain of another's player. If they anyway choose to do so, then the hex is transformed one step further toward the color wheel, until a color that is not the home terrain of another player is reached".

For example, in a green, grey, blue, black layout, if Auren decide to transform a red hex into grey, then it becomes green. If they decide to transform a brown hex into black, then it becomes green (it still count as 1 spade for the spade >> 2VP).

This would make Auren an effective counter to Engineers and differentiate them from Witches, which is known to outclass Auren.

B) Against the black-yellow-green layout, 4th seat pick is known to be difficult. So it can be relevant to buff the Giants too.
This buff can be the following :

"Whenever Giants have a lone spade they cannot use, they can add a second spade to it at the lowered cost of 1w instead of discarding it" (Eligible for cult spades, act5, bon1 and spades obtained via the usual exchange rate).

These buffs are easy to test on snellman by using the "loose adjust option", or for home games.

C) Fakirs would be able to benefit from bon4/bon10: an usual errata buff already discussed and tested in home games.

Does anyone also think these are effectively frustrating points ? What do you think about the proposed buffs ?

Edit :
- added precision to why engineers is in god tier
- moved Alchemists to tier II (it is not picked that often)
- added Fakirs buff suggestion

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Stokes
United States
North Augusta
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Duck Season!
badge
I also believe that you met the King of the Forest, Mei, and meeting him is a sign of good luck.
mbmbmbmbmb
I would like to see random four factions picked with VP bidding. Forget balancing, if you want a good race it will just cost you to get that advantage.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gambia
Brest
msg tools
mls5stokes wrote:
I would like to see random four factions picked with VP bidding. Forget balancing, if you want a good race it will just cost you to get that advantage.


Yeah why not. However I don't like the VP bidding system. I think it's too hard to correctly evaluate the relative strength of a faction before the game even start, and it gives too much importance to the bidding phase.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Wolfpacker
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmb
I'd say if you really want to test the effectiveness of your proposals then get 7 current or recent D1 players (season 10 and later) or any 1450+ rated players and play a full 7p league setup. Since you would be using "option loose-adjust-resource" to test any of these proposals the games would be unrated. Give everyone large time limits so players don't have to rush and can concentrate on their real league games.

I think it would be ok to have these sorts of adjustments for D1 and perhaps D2 games, including auction, but probably not any lower.

When I made the Fire and Ice Test Leagues it showed that 5p was a viable and legitimate format for a tournament league play in both 11p and 6p league sizes. People might still prefer the 4p for F&I, but that preference does not eliminate the fact that 5p F&I Leagues still work.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonah P.
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Maybe it's just me, but I find the engineers quite difficult to play. And I would say I'm pretty good at the game. I usually score around 145 and have had some really good games with the cultists scoring around 170. However, when I play engineers I crash and burn. Any advice on where they usually start? Starting bonus tiles? Style of play? Round scoring tiles?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gambia
Brest
msg tools
JamesWolfpacker wrote:

I think it would be ok to have these sorts of adjustments for D1 and perhaps D2 games, including auction, but probably not any lower.


I don't agree here. I think all divisions should be playing the same game.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gambia
Brest
msg tools
Jonah Pak wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but I find the engineers quite difficult to play. And I would say I'm pretty good at the game. I usually score around 145 and have had some really good games with the cultists scoring around 170. However, when I play engineers I crash and burn. Any advice on where they usually start? Starting bonus tiles? Style of play? Round scoring tiles?


It applies only for engineers with no colour neighbours.
Here are some general advices :
- Almost always start e7 and f6.
- Bon1 and spades are of worthy importance.
- Make a second temple in the early game (r1 or r2), take at least a favour that gives income (the +5pw is very useful for power actions).
- Third temple in middle game is also great.
- Take act6 almost whenever available. Don't upgrade dig level.
- Consider shipping upgrade and bon4 in the middle game to expand.
- Send priest on cults that reward bonuses.
- Play along the round and tile bonuses (Engineers are very flexible and can afford to do that without sacrificing too much income).
- Consider building SH in rounds 4, 5 or 6 along some bridges if you have enough resources. (Sometimes even from round 3).
- Calculate to build 3 towns if possible.
- Win network scoring with 15+ buildings.

Here are compiled examples from last 5 seasons in D1:
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S11_D1L1_G2
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S11_D1L1_G3
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S11_D1L1_G6
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S11_D1L1_G7
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S12_D1L1_G5
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S13_D1L1_G3
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S13_D1L1_G6
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S13_D1L1_G7
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S14_D1L1_G5
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S14_D1L1_G6
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S15_D1L1_G2
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S15_D1L1_G7
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Space Trucker
Germany
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Some thoughts:

On tiers/the situation of game metagame:
At the moment the situation with engineers is indeed unsatisfying in some games. Engineers with no neighbors can often only be controlled if several other players aim at it. If every player takes a nice option from engineers once or twice in the game, so that they don't win networks or don't build 3 towns it's actually possible to beat them in a normal or high scoring game. Low scoring game can be a bit tougher for engineers anyway.
I'm not sure if this metagame has already reached a globale maximum, became stale, or if it will evolve further. Engineers weren't always the dominant faction (in earlier days it was darklings).
This season we twice see rainbowjoe attacking engineers with green, maybe this style will evolve further (his situation doesn't look that bad in the 2 games without discussing any futher at this point) or at least cause players to be a bit more careful in chosing engineers (as players became more careful to pick CMs due to some very painful games).


On your proposed Auren redesign:
This would effectivly mean that Auren always have 2 "empty" 1-spade colors and 0-2 "neighboring" 1-spade colors. Auren with no neighbors (2 "empty" 1-spade colors and 0 "neighboring" 1-spade colors) already are a pretty competetive choice (I don't find the data, I guess it was by Juho). It's just taht they are never a smart choice, at least in the base game, because witches are always even better. With your proposed change, a setup with neighbors would probably even be better?
First impression is that this would be too resistant and therefore too strong.
It could also change the meta the other way round - either many early Auren picks (because it's the safe faction now), or blue/grey factions seldom picked from early seats because Auren could be picked to destroy them. I guess Auren could become a very disruptive faction, selfsandwiching between other factions. But pretty hard to predict, this would be a major change...

On the proposed Giant buff:
The possibility to use single cult spades, bon1 and dig with 4w is no small buffs, but sounds more controlable. Probably this would make Giant's at least an average faction and also give them more aggressive potential (more early digging).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gambia
Brest
msg tools
SpaceTrucker wrote:
Some thoughts:

On tiers/the situation of game metagame:
At the moment the situation with engineers is indeed unsatisfying in some games. Engineers with no neighbors can often only be controlled if several other players aim at it.

If two players aims at it and say the third one doesn't, it means that the two first players might have sacrifice something somewhere else to take this particular action so it might favor the third. So I don't think it's a good solution to rely on the dynamic of multi-player games to balance itself.

SpaceTrucker wrote:
Low scoring game can be a bit tougher for engineers anyway.


Engineers do have an innate VP ability so they are more than ok on these games imo.

SpaceTrucker wrote:

This season we twice see rainbowjoe attacking engineers with green, maybe this style will evolve further (his situation doesn't look that bad in the 2 games without discussing any futher at this point) or at least cause players to be a bit more careful in chosing engineers (as players became more careful to pick CMs due to some very painful games).

Or maybe it's more that other players have already been careful at not picking witches against engineers.

SpaceTrucker wrote:

It could also change the meta the other way round - either many early Auren picks (because it's the safe faction now), or blue/grey factions seldom picked from early seats because Auren could be picked to destroy them. I guess Auren could become a very disruptive faction, selfsandwiching between other factions. But pretty hard to predict, this would be a major change...


I agree it would change the meta, but auren with no color neighbour would almost be the same faction as it is now. Which is not much a threat and is weaker than Witches for the reasons we know. So an early Auren pick wouldn't be that strong.

Also, auren wouldn't destroy blue much more than witches do now. They would take some black hex easier though, but blue aren't usually concerned about these hexes in a blue/green matchup.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonah P.
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Ahh, Thanks so much for the tips! I'm excited to execute some of these strategies!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
bob lawblaw
msg tools
This thread is really going to upset the "darklings are OP and need nerfed" group...

A) I theoretically wouldn't be opposed to errata for Giants/Auren/Fakir to make them plausible to play.

B) After the absolute shitshow that is the bonus landscapes, however, I'm more afraid of damage this would potentially cause to the game, so the proposed changes would have to be really, really solid for me to actually get behind any of this (aka definitely not the convoluted Auren idea in the OP)

EDIT: Also, 11/14 factions are playable according to the OP... doesn't sound like stale game to me. Sure 14/14 would be great, but 14 perfectly balanced factions isn't achievable.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Sandman
Germany
flag msg tools
This

Skyswooper wrote:

God tier:
Engineers


is in my opinion far more problematic than this

Skyswooper wrote:


Tier III:
Giants, Fakirs, Auren



Therefore, I would suggest to slightly nerf the Engineers instead. In my opinion a reduction of the pw income of their 2nd TE to 3pw (or even 2pw) seems fair as the TE normally gets built relatively early in the game and thus it contributes quite much to their snowballing-ability (remember that pw and the corresponding ACTs are disproportionately more worth for Engineers in relation to other factions due to their lower building costs).


In general it cannot be intended that you have to go on a suicide mission to be able to stop engineers. And it is quite obvious (I might look into the numbers on the upcoming weekend to back this impression) that engineers outperform on average without any neighbours whereas you underperform on average if you pick red or green with engineers in the game. Especially the outperformance without an opponent on the terraforming wheel might be true for most factions, but it is extreme for engineers.


I also do like the idea of auren and giants getting buffed (fakirs of course as well but this is nothing to debate about..^^).

I quite like the suggestion you made for giants. Being able to use lone spades from round bonuses or the round tile by paying just 1 additional W for the second spade might be more influential as one might think but shouldnt make them to strong obviously as it doesnt get used that many times in a game. This might also weaken Engineers a little (!) bit as the spade+2C roundtile, which the small ones do like a lot for obvious reasons, would become interesting for giants as well.

On contrast i absolutely do not like your suggestion for auren as it is simply not really elegant. I also do think that there shouldnt be any major changes to any of the factions in general so im not sold on the idea of giving the auren a faction ability. If you really would like to have a faction ability i would have loved them to have the cultists ability from the "special landscapes" that breaks any ties on the cult tracks.

EDIT: 2pw for 2nd Engineers TE, although im not sure which one fits better and typo (Edit2)
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Space Trucker
Germany
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
DieKrake wrote:
This

Skyswooper wrote:

God tier:
Engineers


is in my opinion far more problematic than this

Skyswooper wrote:


Tier III:
Giants, Fakirs, Auren



Therefore, I would suggest to slightly nerf the Engineers instead. In my opinion a reduction of the pw income of their 2nd TE to 3pw (or even 2pw) seems fair as the TE normally gets built relatively early in the game and thus it contributes quite much to their snowballing-ability (remember that pw and the corresponding ACTs are disproportionately more worth for Engineers in relation to other factions due to their lower building costs).

Lowering the temple income of engineers from 5pw to 2pw is a huge change. I would rather welcome small changes would prefer to nerf engineers that have a lot of stuff, not the ones that already struggle. Maybe going down to 4pw for the second temple and do sth else, too, maybe one or both of these:
- 3rd and 4th trading post give only 1pw
- 8th dwellings gives no worker income
Both would only affect engineers that explode in the midgame and place a lot of stuff on the board. It would not hurt engineers that have a hard time anyway, but only make building 15-17 structures a bit harder.

I would welcome small buffs on other faction, where one could be sure that no new too strong faction is created and there's no major change in how they feel to play. Slightly changing numbers on tableaus. Small buffs like this for the "bad" factions could be:

Auren:

Maybe one or some of these:
- SA costs only 4w/6c (instead of 4/8 - there is no reason why the bad green faction has the worse SA)
- 1st and 2nd TP grant 2pw (instead of 1)
- grant one/two additional cult point at the start (like starting with 2 water, 1 air or 1 at each cult), to make early using cult bonuses with the SH easier
(I would not like to touch the SH, as it is already pretty good and giving a bad faction a really strong SH would only result in another faction that is almost forced to start with SH to be competetive)

Giants:
Some of (not all) these:
- 1st and 2nd TP grant 2pw (instead of 1)
- Reduce cost of advance dig to 1p/1w/4c. (actually advance dig is simply to bad for giants)
- Change starting power to 9/3 instead of 7/5 (give easy access to act6 to possibly delay SH to round 2 or dig twice in round 1)

Fakirs:
Some (not all) of these:
- 1st and 2nd TP grant 2pw (instead of 1)
- change starting power to 7/5 or 8/4 or 9/3 instead of 5/7 (not sure about 9/3 which would give them easy access to act6)
- reduce SH cost to 4/8 instead of 4/10
This would make the SH a bit more viable while granting more power for more spades/coins.

Dwarves:
- SH creates 4pw (instead of 2pw)
(would make an earlier SH a bit more viable without changing much)

Halflings:
- SH creates 4pw (instead of 2pw)
(would make an SH a bit more viable without changing much)

Even if a faction would not become really good, it would already be nice to see the gap a bit more narrow.

Possible small nerfs for darklings (one or both):
- Reduce darkling's starting power to 6/6 instead of 7/5 (would make very good starts a tiny bit harder without denying access to act2)
- reduce starting recources to 1/13 or 1/14 instead of 1/15
(would make starts with very early SA or 2nd temple a bit harder)
- maybe in return: SH creates 4pw (instead of 2pw) - people will probably skin me for suggesting this, but darkling SH is most of the time a very bad building and only viable very late (more income doesn#t matter last round, but could make building this in 4th or 5th round a tiny bit more attractive)

It's interesting to think about this, but I don't really see how changes like this could become reality. It only affects a small freak fraction of the playerbase, so I guess Feuerland would not be interested in changing numbers in a 2nd edition or sth. like this (?). Having many rules changed on the snellman would not be very newcomer friendly (but might of course be a tick-able variant for competetive play).
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gambia
Brest
msg tools
I dont like these kind of "value optimisation" nerf. Because its hard to determine the correct value and most of all it introduces rules that are contradictory with information displayed on the faction board of the real game (after all its a real life game before being played online and I vouch for it to keep this spirit).

Thats why the giants buff I propose looks more like an errata and you dont need to put sticker to take that rule into account.

Buffing Fakirs and Dwarves with an errata is very easy and has been already discussed : give them use for bon4 and bon10.

I know the Auren proposed errata is quite a change but it gives to this part of the wheel color the needed resilience imo. Maybe someone can come up with a better idea?

If you were to nerf darklings with an errata (it might be needed if the meta shifts) then disallow them to use spades obtained without priest conversion. It denies them cult spades (so they cant have bread and butter in these situations) and they will have no use for bon1 (which was strictly better than bon8 for them in the early game).

Nerfing engineer is unnecessary if Auren and Giants receive a buff.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Space Trucker
Germany
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Skyswooper wrote:
I dont like these kind of "value optimisation" nerf. Because its hard to determine the correct value and most of all it introduces rules that are contradictory with information displayed on the faction board of the real game (after all its a real life game before being played online and I vouch for it to keep this spirit).

It's just two different attempts. One is changing the rulebook with erratas (while keeping the same game material), one is slight finetuning for sth. like a 2nd edition (as it was done for Agricola or Through the Ages). That's a matter of goals and taste.

I disagree about that it's harder to evaluate the value of small number "finetuning" - in contrary i think if you don't touch critical parts this is much easier than to put e.g. the value of the proposed digging change for Auren in numbers (which would change very much depending on map and opponents - i don't know if it is like +3vp or +10vp on average margin, if it would be too strong in some setups or on one maps). For a cheaper SA I'd guess that this might result not more than ~1VP delta (2c in mid-/lategame are maybe worth 2vp comparing to alchemists, but Auren don't always want a SA, so maybe 1 - sth. like this).

Btw. I like BON4/BON10 for Fakirs and BON10 for Dwarves.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
bob lawblaw
msg tools
I guess I'm having a little bit of a hard time with this engineers are unstoppable now thing, especially given that ever since I started playing a year ago all anybody talks about is how darklings are unbeatable.

Engineers in Div1 games from seasons 12-14:
picked: 16 times
1st: 3 times
2nd: 6 times
3rd: 2 times
4th: 5 times

So which part of this is problematic exactly? The 18% win percentage of engineers over the last 3 seasons make them now... unbeatable god tier?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Space Trucker
Germany
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
bob654 wrote:
I guess I'm having a little bit of a hard time with this engineers are unstoppable now thing, especially given that ever since I started playing a year ago all anybody talks about is how darklings are unbeatable.

Many members of the "darklings are unbeatable faction" are actually also part of "I've read sth. on bgg faction" or of the "I don't play online but with my friends at home who are all really good" faction.
At least at highest tournament level I can't see darkling dominance, but much more engineer's domninance:

A look at actual div 1-3:

3 engineers with no neighbors, 3 wins with 160+ points:
http://tmtour.org/#/leagues/1381

1 engineer with no neighbors, win with 160+ points, 3 games with neighbor, all 3 games horrible for the neighbor, 1 engineer win:
http://tmtour.org/#/leagues/1380

A bit hard to tell at this point but engineers are always better than their red neighbor:
http://tmtour.org/#/leagues/1378

Pretty mixed results:
http://tmtour.org/#/leagues/1379

3 engineers with no neighbors, 3 wins (one with 'only' 157 points), 2 games of engineers vs witches, one engineer win, one open game:
http://tmtour.org/#/leagues/1376

Pretty mixed results:
http://tmtour.org/#/leagues/1377

One engineers win with 165 points, 3 unfinished games, both with witches don't look good for engineers:
http://tmtour.org/#/leagues/1375


All in all that's a more than impressive performance by engineers in the top leagues and I guess based on this noone playing there will agree with the "darklings are the one and only evil overpowered faction that always wins" stuff, even if it is repeated quite often.
(don't get me wrong: Darklings are good and especially versatile and always a pretty safe pick - but if I have to play with them against engineers on a good board I am under the strong impression that I play against an edge of engineers).
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
bob lawblaw
msg tools
Quote:
(don't get me wrong: Darklings are good and especially versatile and always a pretty safe pick - but if I have to play with them against engineers on a good board I am under the strong impression that I play against an edge of engineers).


Also don't get me wrong - engineers are definitely strong, but I just don't see them as being any stronger than at the very least darklings, and both are eminently beatable obviously otherwise there would be no game.

I think part of the problem is that the color wheel + original board create a strong symbiotic relationship between engineers and darklings. Add to this the fact that darklings + mermaids can coexist the best between neighboring colors, and nomads as another all around high-flexibility pick with no neighbors, and you end up with the classic darkling-engineer-mermaid-nomad game. Maybe this foursome is picked the most statistically, but we're not talking about the majority of games or anything like that, even in the most competitive of games.

Are darklings and engineers a little bit stronger than the rest of the boards? Yes, but I personally just think this is all a little bit of an overreaction.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dhrun
msg tools
Disclaimer:
I’m only a theoretical expert, as I never played Engineers yet
And I appreciate Skyswooper’s train of thought very much, but suggest this might lead from a discussion on balance to a slightly different discussion on how to keep things interesting for TM players who have seen it all, i.e. how to vary environment(s) while keeping some tournament+”official” frame (hi Magic players out there..).

That said, I (too) challenge that God tier tag, from my interpretation of statistics during the last year or so, Darklings still are “a bit” stronger than Engineers in the standard tournament environment who are possibly on par with Cultists (significantly higher margin but lower overall count).

See:
https://flat1701.github.io/tmstats/#a111000011..a43.......,a...

Of course there are weaknesses to all statistics (e.g. for league play, league points would be even more meaningful than Margins), but I think these points can be derived here:
- Exact league settings
- With SCORE9(TE>>4) included, only recent games
- Therefore most will be competitive play
- All above 1250 = equivalent to ca. division 1-3 plus some division 4
- There are no unusual standard deviations, including for Engineers (the value behind “Margin” is standard deviation, right?), so there do not seem to be exceptional “all or nothing” factions (e.g. dependent on colour constellations)
- Darklings have higher margins _and_ higher play counts than Engineers – that makes them stronger in my eyes, be it for metagame reasons, player experience, map, faction constellations or whatever
- Cultists have the highest margins, so technically they are most underplayed

I think the high play count of Darklings is significant in particular – the higher the division, the smarter the players, the more play time of factions should balance strength of factions till ultimately all factions score roughly the same. Still Darklings get the highest play counts _and_ the second highest Margin (only below Cultists).

Independent of that I agree with bob654 that some imbalance does not hurt – as long as there is enough variation, it might even be more interesting that some factions are stronger on average/more flexible than others.
Then again I cannot gauge yet, how repetitive it might feel with 100, 200, … games with exactly the same format, see first lines


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evil Roy
United Kingdom
Sutton
Surrey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think (at least I very much hope) that untested, home-brewed variants aren't going to be picked up by the league without extensive testing and balancing first.

I suggest this thread is moved to the Variants forum.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gambia
Brest
msg tools
bob654 wrote:
I guess I'm having a little bit of a hard time with this engineers are unstoppable now thing, especially given that ever since I started playing a year ago all anybody talks about is how darklings are unbeatable.

Engineers in Div1 games from seasons 12-14:
picked: 16 times
1st: 3 times
2nd: 6 times
3rd: 2 times
4th: 5 times

So which part of this is problematic exactly? The 18% win percentage of engineers over the last 3 seasons make them now... unbeatable god tier?


Oh, the reason why engineers are god tier is because when they have no color neighbors, they seem unstoppable. The statistic you compiled includes games where engineers have color neighbors.

In the current divisions 1-3 the stat for engineers with no color neighbors are:
1st: 9
2nd: 1
3rd: 0
4th: 2
still playing: 3

Which is 75% win percentage right now. That's a lot.
I've edited my first post to specify I'm talking about engineers with no green nor red.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Stokes
United States
North Augusta
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Duck Season!
badge
I also believe that you met the King of the Forest, Mei, and meeting him is a sign of good luck.
mbmbmbmbmb
How do other faction favor with no neighbors? It would seem to me that that condition would bump most factions into a majority in wins.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dhrun
msg tools
I agree with EvilRoy in that TM rules and to a smaller extend league rules should not be changed without very careful consideration and even then very rarely.
In particular the general rules should only be changed with consent of an overwhelming(?) player majority and if possible the game developers / other official shareholders.
I’m more open to evolution of competitive play, but this should be kept as “downward compatible” as possible, i.e. rather add than change, e.g. new tiles, new maps, new factions, _maybe_ new mechanisms; possibly putting options to additional tournament formats rather than to the existing one, because:

For one thing we all know it is difficult to improve things which are excellent already and different people feel differently about those too.
And, greater minds might smile, but I admit frequent changes and even subtle shifts take from my sense of achievement (which can be mollified by adding some extra history/categories/stats) blush

As one step I'd support a bidding system as Matt suggested above.
Only problems I see:
Poor Daniel or Juho would have to do the work?
Can there be any implementation that does not slow play start too much?
This might scare of new/more casual players which would be a shame, a bit of the fun to me is that this community is so big..
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gambia
Brest
msg tools
mls5stokes wrote:
How do other faction favor with no neighbors? It would seem to me that that condition would bump most factions into a majority in wins.


Yeah that's true, any faction of tier II with no color neighbor are at least as strong as factions in tier I.

However, only engineers (and chaos magicians, but CM hardly never have no color neighbor) look too much dominant when they have no color neighbor.




1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gambia
Brest
msg tools
Dhrun wrote:
I agree with EvilRoy in that TM rules and to a smaller extend league rules should not be changed without very careful consideration and even then very rarely.


I agree too. That's why I proposed only rules that could look like an errata.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.