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Subject: What is the Sin/Hero win ratio in the games you have played? rss

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Claus Appel
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Copenhagen
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Poll
How often has each side won in the games you have played?
Sins have always won
Sins have won far more often
Sins have won slightly more often
About 50/50
Heroes have won slightly more often
Heroes have won far more often
Heroes have always won
      86 answers
Poll created by SpectrumDT

Opinions have been very divided regarding the balance in The Others: 7 Sins. Some people find that the Sins win all the time and hence argue that the game is imbalanced; some find that the Heroes win at least half of the time and hence argue that the game is balanced.

This thread is not a discussion of whether the game is "balanced". That is a nebulous term anyway and depends on a lot of factors. In this thread, I simply want to gather some data: How often do people see the two sides win?

After voting, feel free to post and elaborate: How many games have you played, how experienced are your players, stuff like that.

Personally, I have played four games and the Sins have won all four.
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Emivaldo Sousa
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14 games. Sin's player won 13.

The one the heroes won was the first mission, with a very experienced group and I (playing as Sin) was way off, making mistakes and never had much luck with combat. Heroes rolled several explosions on key combats and equipped themselves really well. It still was on on the last roll and the hero sacrificed himself.

Since when both objectives are completed at the same time, the heroes win, they got this one.

Their victory was deserved, but it was kinda of an odd duck. Let´s see what happens next.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Elk Ridge
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Where's my "Haven't Played Yet" option?

-shnar
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Emivaldo Sousa
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One thing that people could elaborate on the comments is what missions the heroes have actually won.

I think the terror ones are much easier on the heroes than the ones that punish them when reaching full corruption.
 
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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zinho73 wrote:
14 games. Sin's player won 13.

The one the heroes won was the first mission, with a very experienced group and I (playing as Sin) was way off, making mistakes and never had much luck with combat. Heroes rolled several explosions on key combats and equipped themselves really well. It still was on on the last roll and the hero sacrificed himself.

Since when both objectives are completed at the same time, the heroes win, they got this one.

Their victory was deserved, but it was kinda of an odd duck. Let´s see what happens next.


It was brought up in another thread, so just double checking.

When your heroes take a voluntary corruption point, are they following this rule:


When a hero takes corruption this way, and only then, he adds to his current roll all the bonuses visible on his Corruption track, under the corruption level he just reached and all levels before (to the left of) that.

___________________________________

It seems at least some players may be playing this rule wrong and only taking whatever bonus is under the current corruption point and not stacking them.

I also think Faith members may be playing too conservatively in trying to keep their heroes alive and healthy for as long as possible and not understanding that they need to take one, or many, for the team. By prolonging the game in this way (keeping your heroes healthy), it allows the Sins player to accumulate and hoard more cards in their hands, which allows them to better react to the Faith player.

Also, by killing the bad guys, you allow the Sins player to reallocate them to favorable spots. So its best to kill when needed, otherwise take some damage and move through them.

Jorune
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Emivaldo Sousa
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Jorune wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
14 games. Sin's player won 13.

The one the heroes won was the first mission, with a very experienced group and I (playing as Sin) was way off, making mistakes and never had much luck with combat. Heroes rolled several explosions on key combats and equipped themselves really well. It still was on on the last roll and the hero sacrificed himself.

Since when both objectives are completed at the same time, the heroes win, they got this one.

Their victory was deserved, but it was kinda of an odd duck. Let´s see what happens next.


It was brought up in another thread, so just double checking.

When your heroes take a voluntary corruption point, are they following this rule:


When a hero takes corruption this way, and only then, he adds to his current roll all the bonuses visible on his Corruption track, under the corruption level he just reached and all levels before (to the left of) that.

___________________________________

It seems at least some players may be playing this rule wrong and only taking whatever bonus is under the current corruption point and not stacking them.

I also think Faith members may be playing too conservatively in trying to keep their heroes alive and healthy for as long as possible and not understanding that they need to take one, or many, for the team. By prolonging the game in this way (keeping your heroes healthy), it allows the Sins player to accumulate and hoard more cards in their hands, which allows them to better react to the Faith player.

Also, by killing the bad guys, you allow the Sins player to reallocate them to favorable spots. So its best to kill when needed, otherwise take some damage and move through them.

Jorune


Playing correctly, yes.

And although I think you are correct in saying that you do not have to be afraid of dying or taking damage, you must judge very well when to do it, because those unavoidable DMG can pile up very quickly. In the game won by the heroes, they were really careful, abandoning their safe moves in very few, key times.

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Tyler DeLisle
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This definitely isn't going to be a truly scientific poll since there are a ton of variables in what sin was played, what mission, varying experience levels, etc.

Still, my gut feeling from the games I've played is just that a table full of novices to the game, playing as the Sin is more forgiving. As long as you're just getting monsters on the board and attacking plus rolling for debuffs, that's enough to make things hard on the Heroes.

Heroes need to play a competent game, they need to know how to accurately judge risk vs reward, and they have to have a good idea of what's important, and what the Sin player is capable of.

Eric Lang said often that lots of play testing lead to what he was confident was a 50/50 balanced game with a slight edge towards the Sin player. That's with very experienced players who knew the system inside and out. Like with most Co-Op games, it takes multiple plays to learn the system sand know how to beat it, I think it will take 2-3 games for players to get on equal footing.
 
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Brian M
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I feel like in the games we've played, the heroes have to really struggle, plan carefully and really make optimum use of their resources, while the sin player can just kind of wing-it and still be competitive.

Quote:
Like with most Co-Op games, it takes multiple plays to learn the system sand know how to beat it, I think it will take 2-3 games for players to get on equal footing.

This is very much not a co-op. Especially when you are just playing 2 players.
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Sammy
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Mostly the Sin winning.

Of the 9 or 10 games I've played the heroes have won twice.

Once with a double KO, which the heroes win.

Second time was where you have to get innocent tokens back to the starting space. Sin somehow ended up with no monsters in the area & the hero (Benoit I think) was able to stroll into the starting space to win the game.
 
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Jo Haugen
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Heroes win every terror (although I blame some of this on the sin player making mistakes) and sin win every corruption and redemption.

Some of the losses are round 1 exploding dice killing multiple faith characters causing an immediate restart, which is increadibly boring as it's often not due to player mistake but a roll of the dice. Most of the time I think we're just not good FAITH players yet.
 
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Tyrone ..................
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I've played 6 times and the Sin has won every time. I finally shelved the game.
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Tyler DeLisle
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StormKnight wrote:
Quote:
Like with most Co-Op games, it takes multiple plays to learn the system sand know how to beat it, I think it will take 2-3 games for players to get on equal footing.

This is very much not a co-op. Especially when you are just playing 2 players.


Obviously it's not a co-op, but the system for the heroes is similar to that of a co-op, where you're having to eliminate threats on the board and there are cards that create an unknown element that can throw your plans out of wack. My point was that this is similar to a co-op where the "good guys" need to have a good awareness of the game mechanics, and what cards might come out to learn how to plan accordingly. This is regardless of player count, even if just one player is playing the heroes, they still are in command of multiple characters on the board and need to learn how to utilize them together effectively.
 
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Tyler DeLisle
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rccoll wrote:
I've played 6 times and the Sin has won every time. I finally shelved the game.


Really? Was that 6 times with the same players? Did you vary up the game types? Was it the same person playing the Sin each time, or did you switch it up?

The Heroes have lost each one of my games, but each time I feel like if certain mistakes weren't made, the win was in the Heroes' grasp. The Heroes even had a chance to win if we didn't, incorrectly, let the Sins player play 3 sin cards on the final turn.
 
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Orri Bragason
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In the 9 or so game I have played , the sin player has won twice.
I really enjoy the game (we rotate sin player) and I really do think that the win ratio will reach 50/50 or higher for the sin player eventually when most of us get into the role.

The reason the heroes win more in my group is that playing as the heroes has so many parallels in other gaming scenarios(turn order planing from any co-op, dice math from zillions of games) and they can focus on short term goals while the Sin player has a more distinct play style , he has to plan further ahead and try to find the right moments to play cards or engage to not waste models in lost fights.

I really like that at least one part of the game has a bit of a learning curve and my group is eager to get better.
 
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Tyler DeLisle
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Thanks for the differing experience Omi. I do feel that, despite the Sins winning every game that I've witnessed, the win was always possible from the heroes perspective. They made bad calls at some point, or neglected something. So I could totally see a group of experienced co-op players being really on their game and giving the Sins player a run for their money. I wish I was in that scenario because I enjoy these types of games the most when I can try my hardest to win as the Sin player, but the Heroes still come out on top. As it stands now, I've had to be sort of, purposely sloppy.
 
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Johny D
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My friends seem to enjoy this game much more than me and insist to play it quite often. Sin role is assigned randomly and I must say that the game appears not to be balanced at all.

Heroes won 100% (6/6) of the terror games played so far. I think that the SIn player has no actually chance to fight back in this kind of scenario due to extremely limited options and too many situational plays. It also doesn't help that the power level of some sins is inferior compared to others.

The sin player won 100% (7/7) of the corruption games. Despite the huge dispropotion towards the sin player I think that heroes have a good chance of fighting back, especially against least powerful sins like: Lust / Glutony

Things seem a little better for redemption (4-2 for the sin player)
 
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Andrew Greenstone

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So far I am 5 games in. The sins have won every game. We have played the intro terror mission 3 times with different players. One blue mission. One green mission.

Each game played thus far has been a two player game , sin player vs single person playing 3 heroes. I have played on both sides of the field and have enjoyed the game each time but do feel it is skewed in the sins advantage.

We have played some rules wrong a few times and with that said it's not a perfect reading of true balance but even with the small misinturpretations of the rules I feel the sins have a leg up.

Our next play through we plan on trying the game with 4 heroes regardless of the number of players.

Side note I need a rules clarification on...sins card deck...do you reshuffle if there is no deck to draw from?
 
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Steven Alexander
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I'm about to play this for the first time this weekend with a group of 5. From reading the thread it seems like our first game should be a redemption mission? Thoughts on that?

Thanks!
 
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Claus Appel
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runim wrote:
I'm about to play this for the first time this weekend with a group of 5. From reading the thread it seems like our first game should be a redemption mission? Thoughts on that?

Thanks!

I recommend you to start with the recommended starting mission. (What's it called - "Haven's Last Stand"? Something like that. It is in the rulebook.)

Try a few games with the standard rules. People's experience of the game balance varies wildly between groups. If your group finds the game unbalanced, then add small, simple houserules to make it more fun for your group.

When I play, we let each starting hero start with one free upgrade card. With that, it seems pretty balanced for us.
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Emivaldo Sousa
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Lost another one

Here is how we are doing it:
1. As sins player, I avoid great synergies. For example - no corruption generators in missions that players are punished when at max corruption.

2. Give players perfect info, letting them read the cards from the sin and mission decks before choosing characters. Some characters are definitely being more used and I think some others will never be used, but ces't la vie.

3. Faith Players laser focused on the objectives.

4. As a sin player, roll a bit under average whistle

In the game lost, one player survived a 7 dice attack while fully corrupted and with just one life point left (defending with 4 dice). Another survived a 14 dice attack with two wounds already(with some good gear and a corruption bonus, but still...).

It was a very fun game, nevertheless, and actually a bit on the Faith side this time: good equipment early on and the hits weren't happening on my side.
 
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amanwing
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I would bet that the people here with a lot of wins on the FAITH side are not playing 100% correct or have a bad SIN player. A common mistake for example is to allow shooting into districts.
I play this game a lot with my wife and I am usually the one who wins all those strategic games. She is not bad but she doesn't think too far ahead. I have a very hard time winning when I play against her. She is winning about 9/10 games. I always try to think what I did wrong after a game and often there was not too much I could have done better but I always see a lot of mistakes she makes when playing. She often chooses the less than optimal moves but still wins. This is what bothers me. But at least it keeps things interesting since we have a game she regular wins
All I try to say is that when you have two players both on the same level you will see the SIN player win more often.


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