$15.00
$5.00
$20.00
Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Nemo's War (second edition)» Forums » General

Subject: compexity rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Charles Aguis
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
I see bgg rated this game 2.40 out of 5, and victory point games rated it 3 out of 9. Now I would say this is of the lighter complexity rating on both accounts. I downloaded the rules recently and was shocked to see a 32 page rule book with pretty small print. The old rules for this game was about 7 pages. What I would like to know is how this is considered light.I normally stay away from complex games. as they don't get played enough to warrant owning. I have been waiting for this 2nd edition for a long time and I've never played the first edition. Any feed back would be helpful. Thanks.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
My name is
Belgium
Brussels
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Is the complexity factor related to the rules or to the conditions to win a game?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
"Arrange whatever pieces come your way." Virginia Woolf
mbmbmbmbmb
baylock wrote:
Is the complexity factor related to the rules or to the conditions to win a game?
Valid question and I think people often associate complexity with rules length. Sometimes it is, but sometimes rules length is dictated by (a) unclear rules that need to be explained and re-explained (b) lots of fiddly bits and exceptions that aren't necessarily complex but are just lengthy.

I'm not saying either of these apply here--I haven't seen these rules nor the game--but I agree with your implicit statement: rules length is not necessarily related to complexity.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Blackford
United States
Huber Heights
Ohio
flag msg tools
Hi-diddly-ho, neighborino!
badge
"I'll have a Shirley... No, a virgin... No, a children's... Oh, what the heck? You only live once. Give me a white wine spritzer! "
mbmbmbmbmb
The rulebook may be 32 pages, but there are a TON of images and examples in there. The rules don't even start until pg. 10 (or somewhere around there), excluding set up. A 2.40/5 on the BGG scale would roughly be Medium Complexity, which seems about right. I'm not as familiar with VPG's own scale, but I'm guessing the game sits somewhere between Medium-Light to Medium.

I think you'll be fine if you're interested in the game!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Aguis
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
adm1 wrote:
baylock wrote:
Is the complexity factor related to the rules or to the conditions to win a game?
Valid question and I think people often associate complexity with rules length. Sometimes it is, but sometimes rules length is dictated by (a) unclear rules that need to be explained and re-explained (b) lots of fiddly bits and exceptions that aren't necessarily complex but are just lengthy.

I'm not saying either of these apply here--I haven't seen these rules nor the game--but I agree with your implicit statement: rules length is not necessarily related to complexity.
I read the new rule book and to me it looks pretty complex to learn, especially compared to the old rule book of 7 pages. Maybe it's hard to learn but easy to play once learned. I would love to here from somebody that has played the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Aguis
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
I just checked out some of my other vp games and they all had a rating of 3out of 9. For example--Gem rush has an small 8 page rule book and is rated the same as Nemos war. Also Journeys of Marco Polo is rated 3.19 on BGG with a 15 page rule book and Nemos war is rated a 2.40 with a 32 page rule book. Am I not understanding this rating system? This doesn't make sense to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Emrich
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
I would love to here from somebody that has played the game.

That's a very finite group right now. I've played it more than anybody (as its developer of both editions). The rules SEEM much longer, but the part that matters to you isn't more complicated -- in fact, it's LESS complicated. Allow me to explain:

The first edition game had tight "wargame" rules. Very dense, easy to blip over something, but also easy to find later if you did. The Expansion kit included a second set of equally tight wargame rules, increasing the total number of pages...

The new edition has airy "Euro-strategy" style rules (I call it). Lots of negative (i.e., "blank") space and large, robust illustrations everywhere. They also include the expansion kit material (not in the basic rules for the first edition) plus some bonus Kickstarter material (the most notable bit being the Co-op Game rules).

The complexity of the core game itself, I can honestly say, is actually EASIER in the second edition than the first. This is because the gameplay is more streamlined and presented with wonderful iconography. Artist Ian O'Toole has outdone himself translating the rules, cards, and counters so that they sync perfectly together that way.

Hopefully, that addresses your question.

Best,

Alan Emrich
18 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Allard
United States
Dover
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
mb
Hi,

I have played the original game and did not find it particularly complex. I think Alan is stating it pretty well; the rules were designed for wargamers and that is my background. I'm looking forward to the new version and a bit more euro type rule set for some friends. I did the Kickstarter and am looking forward to the game.

I would suspect anyone familiar with most of the medium weight euros would find this game to be similar. It is probably more complex than Catan and less complex than Agricola.

JimA
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pauly Paul
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It might help to know what your personal definition of complex is. Despite what one might believe, with a "standardize" weight system, here on BGG, everyone views the heaviness of a game differently.

So for you personally, what is it that adds to complexity in a game. Is it the number of steps per turn (regardless of how long each individual step might be)? Is it the number of options a player has on a turn? Is it the time it might take to learn how all the parts come to together (one learning game, two learning games, five learning games)? The number of "exceptions" that can occur to the base rules?

If you can example in more detail, perhaps using examples, that might help us better judge whether the game is too complex or not.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
"L'état, c'est moi."
Canada
Vancouver
BC
flag msg tools
admin
designer
Roger's Reviews: check out my reviews page, right here on BGG!
badge
Caution: May contain wargame like substance
mbmbmbmbmb
I've played the new edition and it's got a few more moving parts than the original, but it's not terribly more complex. Alan is also right about the rulebook being more "euro game" style than "war game" style.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Reverend Uncle Bastard
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This tutorial will show you exactly how to play the game, so you can judge for yourself whether it is too complex or not:

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paweł Bedz
Poland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Complexity is not determined by length of the rulebook... If you would rate it like that - chess or chekers would be very light game
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Aguis
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
misioooo wrote:
Complexity is not determined by length of the rulebook... If you would rate it like that - chess or chekers would be very light game
I learned how to play chess and checkers when I was 10 years old. Checker rules were written on the inside of the box lid. I learned to play chess without a rule book from my Uncle. Chess rules can also be written on a few pages of rules. If a game needs 32 pages to learn how to play, it is not exactly a simple game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
W. Cracker
United States
Olmsted Township
Ohio
flag msg tools
What a cool guy!
badge
Never rub another man's rhubarb.
mbmbmbmbmb
Alan Emrich wrote:
Quote:
I would love to here from somebody that has played the game.

That's a very finite group right now. I've played it more than anybody (as its developer of both editions). The rules SEEM much longer, but the part that matters to you isn't more complicated -- in fact, it's LESS complicated. Allow me to explain:

The first edition game had tight "wargame" rules. Very dense, easy to blip over something, but also easy to find later if you did. The Expansion kit included a second set of equally tight wargame rules, increasing the total number of pages...

The new edition has airy "Euro-strategy" style rules (I call it). Lots of negative (i.e., "blank") space and large, robust illustrations everywhere. They also include the expansion kit material (not in the basic rules for the first edition) plus some bonus Kickstarter material (the most notable bit being the Co-op Game rules).

The complexity of the core game itself, I can honestly say, is actually EASIER in the second edition than the first. This is because the gameplay is more streamlined and presented with wonderful iconography. Artist Ian O'Toole has outdone himself translating the rules, cards, and counters so that they sync perfectly together that way.

Hopefully, that addresses your question.

Best,

Alan Emrich


Just following the KS updates I got a real sense they wanted to get it right from the components to the rules. I appreciate all the effort that went into the graphic design, otherwise it's just chits on a board. I ain't afraid of a little complexity. Sure, playing the game correctly with enjoyment is great, but I also enjoy a game that requires some thinking to learn. Sounds like NW will be a winner for me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.