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Subject: Troggs always win? rss

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Wolf Dude
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Played this a while back and loved it, but I had my suspicion that Triggs were too overpowered, especially when all other 3 ganged up on him. I bought the game anyway, but then some people told me the same as I thought, Troggs always win and this was evident in the games they had played. It makes me wonder is the game broken?
 
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James Mathias
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Wolf_Dude80 wrote:
Played this a while back and loved it, but I had my suspicion that Triggs were too overpowered, especially when all other 3 ganged up on him. I bought the game anyway, but then some people told me the same as I thought, Troggs always win and this was evident in the games they had played. It makes me wonder is the game broken?


Nope, I've played a bunch, and Trogs have only won once. The Trogs aren't overpowered just very easy to play.
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Grant Rodiek
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Wolf_Dude80 wrote:
Played this a while back and loved it, but I had my suspicion that Triggs were too overpowered, especially when all other 3 ganged up on him. I bought the game anyway, but then some people told me the same as I thought, Troggs always win and this was evident in the games they had played. It makes me wonder is the game broken?


So...we worked on the game, in total, for 4.5 years. Maybe give us the benefit of the doubt that we didn't ship the game with a faction that doesn't lose?
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chris thatcher
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In our games..

Trogs have won both our 4 player games.

Humans won 2 3 player games, Pilgrims won 1 3 player game

Machines have lost all games.

There are many reports of Trogs winning the most at 4 player
Humans winning the most at 3 player
Machines seem to be very difficult to win with.

Quote:
Maybe give us the benefit of the doubt that we didn't ship the game with a faction that doesn't lose?


How about one that dosen't win? whistle
 
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Grant Rodiek
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The game plays different at every player count. Your tactics must be adjusted.

The game plays differently based on what factions are being used (in 2 player). Your tactics must be adjusted.

The game plays differently based on what Skill(s) you have.

The game plays differently based on what Skill(s) your opponent(s) have.

The game has a deep learning curve in tactics and such. Adapt, experiment, learn. I recommend 2 player for learning how things work quickly.

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James Mathias
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Tariff wrote:
In our games..

Trogs have won both our 4 player games.

Humans won 2 3 player games, Pilgrims won 1 3 player game

Machines have lost all games.

There are many reports of Trogs winning the most at 4 player
Humans winning the most at 3 player
Machines seem to be very difficult to win with


Trogs can only win at 4 player.

Machines are very hard to play, and require perfect action efficiency, but they can win, even in 4 player.
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Grant Rodiek
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jmathias wrote:
Tariff wrote:
In our games..

Trogs have won both our 4 player games.

Humans won 2 3 player games, Pilgrims won 1 3 player game

Machines have lost all games.

There are many reports of Trogs winning the most at 4 player
Humans winning the most at 3 player
Machines seem to be very difficult to win with


Trogs can only win at 4 player.

Machines are very hard to play, and require perfect action efficiency, but they can win, even in 4 player.


Correct. Machines, played well, will seem unbeatable. But, there are times when somebody might make a certain move that you didn't anticipate, or you misplay, and it horks you. Happens.
 
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Grant Rodiek
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Tariff wrote:
In our games..

Trogs have won both our 4 player games.

Humans won 2 3 player games, Pilgrims won 1 3 player game

Machines have lost all games.

There are many reports of Trogs winning the most at 4 player
Humans winning the most at 3 player
Machines seem to be very difficult to win with.

Quote:
Maybe give us the benefit of the doubt that we didn't ship the game with a faction that doesn't lose?


How about one that dosen't win? whistle


Hi! I've won my last 3 games with pilgrims and before that I was dominating as machines. whistle
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Chris Gordy
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HerrohGrant wrote:
Tariff wrote:
In our games..

Trogs have won both our 4 player games.

Humans won 2 3 player games, Pilgrims won 1 3 player game

Machines have lost all games.

There are many reports of Trogs winning the most at 4 player
Humans winning the most at 3 player
Machines seem to be very difficult to win with.

Quote:
Maybe give us the benefit of the doubt that we didn't ship the game with a faction that doesn't lose?


How about one that dosen't win? whistle


Hi! I've won my last 3 games with pilgrims and before that I was dominating as machines. whistle


I have played this game 4 times thus far, all with 4 players. In all four games, the Troggs have NOT won, and in fact were always one of the bottom two scores. Are you remembering that troggs only score 1/2 of the crystals in scoring. From what I have read, this is one of the main reasons in Trogg dominance.

Personally, I think the Humans are the easiest faction to play as a beginner. The brute strength and swarm mentality of the Troggs, definitely gives the Trogg player an advantage in the early rounds, but in later rounds it actually becomes a challenge as their supply becomes limited as they spread out, and they make an easy target for taking prisoners in the early rounds.
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chris thatcher
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Yes we played trogs correctly.

Quote:
Hi! I've won my last 3 games with pilgrims and before that I was dominating as machines.


Mm..maybe a you tube Vid showing how machines can dominate would be helpful as MANY people are having the same results of machines losing every game.

I must say tho that Cry Havoc is an amazingly fun game.

Quote:
personally, I think the Humans are the easiest faction to play as a beginner. The brute strength and swarm mentality of the Troggs, definitely gives the Trogg player an advantage in the early rounds, but in later rounds it actually becomes a challenge as their supply becomes limited as they spread out, and they make an easy target for taking prisoners in the early rounds.


Oh yeah humans are easy mode. Out of interest..how do machines do in your games?
 
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Grant Rodiek
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Tariff wrote:
Yes we played trogs correctly.

Quote:
Hi! I've won my last 3 games with pilgrims and before that I was dominating as machines.


Mm..maybe a you tube Vid showing how machines can dominate would be helpful as MANY people are having the same results of machines losing every game.

I must say tho that Cry Havoc is an amazingly fun game.

Quote:
personally, I think the Humans are the easiest faction to play as a beginner. The brute strength and swarm mentality of the Troggs, definitely gives the Trogg player an advantage in the early rounds, but in later rounds it actually becomes a challenge as their supply becomes limited as they spread out, and they make an easy target for taking prisoners in the early rounds.


Oh yeah humans are easy mode. Out of interest..how do machines do in your games?


I've been asked this before, and I'll answer again that I do not plan to film myself playing. I don't have the equipment, I don't have the editing knowledge, and frankly...at some point I just like to play games for me. Sorry.
 
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Steve Paltrineri
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I've played exactly one three player game, and the machines cleaned our clocks (I was the humans). Now, admittedly, I messed up a few rules, but it seems to me like the machines have some very powerful buildings.
 
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Jason Brown
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Wolf_Dude80 wrote:
Played this a while back and loved it, but I had my suspicion that Triggs were too overpowered, especially when all other 3 ganged up on him. I bought the game anyway, but then some people told me the same as I thought, Troggs always win and this was evident in the games they had played. It makes me wonder is the game broken?

Just to be clear, you haven't played it yet and you're asking if it's broken?
 
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chris thatcher
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Just to be clear, you haven't played it yet and you're asking if it's broken?


Um..

Quote:
Played this a while back and loved it,
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Barry Miller
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HerrohGrant wrote:
Wolf_Dude80 wrote:
Played this a while back and loved it, but I had my suspicion that Triggs were too overpowered, especially when all other 3 ganged up on him. I bought the game anyway, but then some people told me the same as I thought, Troggs always win and this was evident in the games they had played. It makes me wonder is the game broken?


So...we worked on the game, in total, for 4.5 years. Maybe give us the benefit of the doubt that we didn't ship the game with a faction that doesn't lose?

Yes.

I ranted about this recently in another thread for another hyped release, where someone flatly declared the game to be unbalanced after playing it only once.

It seems today, that producing an unbalanced game is the greatest grievance a designer/publisher can commit, and as such there are plenty of people waiting to pounce on making that accusation. What they're saying in effect is that they either have no understanding of the play testing process, or no faith in the play testing process.

But on the flip side, a game shouldn't take 4 or 5 plays either, before balance becomes evident. So it's good to see the replies in this thread that provide a counterpoint.

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Curious Fu
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HerrohGrant wrote:
So...we worked on the game, in total, for 4.5 years. Maybe give us the benefit of the doubt that we didn't ship the game with a faction that doesn't lose?


Four and half years and still the publishers couldn't write a rule book? It is no wonder people are raising their eyebrows. . . The publishers lost any "benefit of the doubt" when they started using paying customers as play testers.
 
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Paul Ferguson
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Nope, I played with them and they are pretty hard to win with. You need to think a few moves ahead with them or you run out of troops. This game requires many plays with each faction to discover the layers of strategy. It is not broken, it just seems that people want everything hand fed to them on a plate these days and if they loose with one strategy then it must a broken game.
 
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Robert Derderian
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Wow...that is not at all fair.

The rule book is as short as I have seen. It only took 20 minutes to read cover to cover. We were able to play the game faster than any game we have played in the past.

Now, as we played we had lots of questions and used these forums to get them clarified. For simple rules there were a lot of questions, but for the most part the answers are exactly as the rules or cards state.

We like the game a lot. So far the humans have won every game. But we are still leaning strategy.
 
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Chris Gordy
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Tariff wrote:
Yes we played trogs correctly.

Quote:
Hi! I've won my last 3 games with pilgrims and before that I was dominating as machines.


Mm..maybe a you tube Vid showing how machines can dominate would be helpful as MANY people are having the same results of machines losing every game.

I must say tho that Cry Havoc is an amazingly fun game.

Quote:
personally, I think the Humans are the easiest faction to play as a beginner. The brute strength and swarm mentality of the Troggs, definitely gives the Trogg player an advantage in the early rounds, but in later rounds it actually becomes a challenge as their supply becomes limited as they spread out, and they make an easy target for taking prisoners in the early rounds.


Oh yeah humans are easy mode. Out of interest..how do machines do in your games?


The run-down after 4 games is:
- Humans 2 wins
- Machines 1 win (the flexibility of the machines crushed everyone)
- Pilgrims 1 win (the player with the Pilgrims was the most-experienced Cry Havoc player in our group).

Personally, I don't think the rule book was terrible, maybe not my top five, but definitively not my bottom 15 either.

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chris thatcher
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It is not broken, it just seems that people want everything hand fed to them on a plate these days and if they loose with one strategy then it must a broken game.


Well, time will tell. I am of the mind at the moment that Machines are indeed broken.
 
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Julien Grenier
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Just to report my little own experience of the game:

I've play 3 3-players games so far, each time a different faction has won, each time the same player as won (not me). So from what I can tell being a good gamer is more important than the faction you are playing.
 
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Oak Wolf
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I've played about 13 games by now, and the overall balance is only starting to surface for me (still learning). When i started i had ??? over my head at the end of the games, not sure what the hell happened. By now it's much clearer what went wrong and why.

But the game is seriously harder to fully understand than it hints, it's very deep. I am not saying balance is perfect, and the fact that it takes a long while to master it can be an issue for buyers that do not recognize the beast for what it is. The clean artwork, the small rulebook and the rather simple concept as well as the short time makes it look like a light strategy game.

Can't tell you to stick with it, but i did (if only to make it worth the money spent), and i am satisfied with the game.

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Andre Smothers
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bgm1961 wrote:

HerrohGrant wrote:
Wolf_Dude80 wrote:
Played this a while back and loved it, but I had my suspicion that Triggs were too overpowered, especially when all other 3 ganged up on him. I bought the game anyway, but then some people told me the same as I thought, Troggs always win and this was evident in the games they had played. It makes me wonder is the game broken?


So...we worked on the game, in total, for 4.5 years. Maybe give us the benefit of the doubt that we didn't ship the game with a faction that doesn't lose?



But on the flip side, a game shouldn't take 4 or 5 plays either, before balance becomes evident.


Why not? Some games take many plays to simply come to an understanding of how to play efficiently on your own, much less worry about the games balance. You think that something like Cry Havoc, across the different player counts and race combos, on top of the randomized skills and decks can be judged for balance after 4 games?
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Andy Day

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Tetsuo2k wrote:
bgm1961 wrote:

HerrohGrant wrote:
Wolf_Dude80 wrote:
Played this a while back and loved it, but I had my suspicion that Triggs were too overpowered, especially when all other 3 ganged up on him. I bought the game anyway, but then some people told me the same as I thought, Troggs always win and this was evident in the games they had played. It makes me wonder is the game broken?


So...we worked on the game, in total, for 4.5 years. Maybe give us the benefit of the doubt that we didn't ship the game with a faction that doesn't lose?



But on the flip side, a game shouldn't take 4 or 5 plays either, before balance becomes evident.


Why not? Some games take many plays to simply come to an understanding of how to play efficiently on your own, much less worry about the games balance. You think that something like Cry Havoc, across the different player counts and race combos, on top of the randomized skills and decks can be judged for balance after 4 games?

If a game cannot be understood and enjoyed in 1-3 sessions my table wants nothing to do with it. If a game cannot be fully appreciated with less than a dozen plays that will make it a poor choice for groups that have even 1 new player.

"Wanna play Cry Havok? We will have fun but you will Cry Uncle."
 
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Fito R
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Gylthinel wrote:
If a game cannot be understood and enjoyed in 1-3 sessions my table wants nothing to do with it. If a game cannot be fully appreciated with less than a dozen plays that will make it a poor choice for groups that have even 1 new player.

"Wanna play Cry Havok? We will have fun but you will Cry Uncle."

Games, to me, are puzzles. Figuring them out IS the game.

I am enjoying Cry Havoc immensely, the winning and the losing. But most of all, the learning.
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