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Atlantic Wall: D-Day to Falaise» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question on Fatigue rss

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Clay Stone
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Quick question to refresh my memory.

I have three infantry units in a hex and i'm the attacker. During the fight I received a combat resolution of "2(1)" against my attacking units. Here is how i broke it out.

1. For the Mandatory Hit I took one step loss

2. For the first Discretionary Hit I retreated one hex max (since i'm the attacker an infantry max is one hex retreat)

3. For the second Discretionary Hit I put one of my infantry units in "Fatigue".

-Now here is my question, do i put my whole stack in fatigue to satisfy or is it just one unit since it's only one Discretionary Hit i'm satisfying?


Thanks
Clay


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It's easy to see why you would wonder after reading this rule.

Series Rule: 14.1.1 Fatigue & Unresolved Hits states, "Each hit taken as fatigue equals one level of fatigue (fatigue hit) that is inflicted on each unit in the stack."

Let me see if I can dissect it and decipher the hidden meaning...

The first part of the sentence, "Each hit taken as fatigue equals one level of fatigue (fatigue hit)..." leads me to believe a fatigue marker placed on a single unit (ie, each fatigue hit) satisfies a single discretionary hit. However, the second part of the sentence, "that is inflicted on each unit in the stack." reverses the first part of the sentence and leads me to believe each unit in the stack must suffer a fatigue level to satisfy a single discretionary hit.

To be honest your guess is as good as mine but I do grow wiry of these enigma's wrapped around puzzles because the author couldn't keep it simple.

I'd guess the whole stack gets fatigued...
 
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Tom Stearns
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Joseph

Go to CSW to the GOSS folder and put "fatigue" in the search engine. There is a several post discussion about this. Short answer is it's stacks.

Joey you participated in that discussion.
 
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Clay Stone
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gohrns wrote:
Joseph

Go to CSW to the GOSS folder and put "fatigue" in the search engine. There is a several post discussion about this. Short answer is it's stacks.

Joey you participated in that discussion.



Ok, so the "whole" stack become fatigue instead.


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gohrns wrote:
Joseph

Go to CSW to the GOSS folder and put "fatigue" in the search engine. There is a several post discussion about this. Short answer is it's stacks.

Joey you participated in that discussion.


Indeed I did and I see it's just as confusing then as it is now.

Anytime a point of confusion resurfaces it should prove that a written clarification is needed for that rule.
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Doug Johnson

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I am at my day job now, but I believe this is what is in the current GOSS rule. I will check to confirm this evening.

14.1.1 Fatigue & Unresolved Hits
A unit may suffer fatigue due to a FS mission or GA if maximum step loss applies (11.6.3). Each hit taken as fatigue equals one level of fatigue (fatigue hit) that is inflicted on each unit of the stack.

Not sure how that is confusing, but to clarify if a stack of units converts step losses to fatigue All units take a fatigue hit. If it would reduce confusion I will change the wording to read

Each hit taken as a fatigue equals one fatigue hit to all units in the stack.

Is that better?
 
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...indeed it is clearer Doug. We just needed it cleared up as to whom the fatigue applies, the whole stack or each unit in the stack seperately. This is one of those snarky little rules that if you know it, it seems clear but if you don't it could go either way (as I outlined in my post above).

It's one of the problems with human communications most people are unaware of, that if you know something already, almost any way it gets put to you the wording makes sense but if a wording is seen for the first time it can be interpreted in several ways. This is often overlooked by sesoned players of a game or game series and a major turn off to potential players as they try to navigate a worded meaning. Add people who's native toung isn't english, not to mention the game's complexity, and you tripple the problem. For this and many other communication reasons it's best to try and boil away the excess menutia and keep a rule as simple and direct as possible.

A good proactive editor, especially one who's already familiar with the subject matter, will review (or have an assistant review) the history every time a question is asked. If it shows the question was asked before by someone different (even as little as once before) a good editor will then seek to clarify or simplify that point to make it palletable to as wide an audience as possible.
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Fredrik Karlsson
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For multiple stack attacks, one hit converted to fatigue will affect all stacks as well, per an earlier ruling. Could also be added
 
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Doug Johnson

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There were numerous players who reviewed the rules prior to the update being put out, some were experienced players, others were new to the game. A lot of the changes incorporated in the update were a result of those inputs.

My feeling with a set of rules this large and as complicated as the GOSS rules are, there will probably always be something that not everyone understands. When I see something like this come up that a number of people don't get, I try and look to see if could be worded or organized better. As always "that is why we have living rules".

 
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Doug Johnson

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Good point. how does this sound?

14.1.1 Fatigue & Unresolved Hits

A unit may suffer fatigue due to a FS mission or GA if maximum step loss applies (11.6.3). Each hit taken as a fatigue hit equals one fatigue hit to all units in the stack or in the case of the attacker, on each unit in all attacking stacks.
 
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Ian Brown
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Joey,

Couldn't agree more. It's what I used to do professionally.

Ian
 
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Clay Stone
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Frocken wrote:
For multiple stack attacks, one hit converted to fatigue will affect all stacks as well, per an earlier ruling. Could also be added



So for every fatigue hit taken "all" hexes in the attack will receive a fatigue marker?

ie: I'm attacking from 2 hexes and each hex has two units in each. My attack doesn't go well and i receive a 2(3) result against my units. Three of my units take (1) step loss each. Now i'm left with (2) discretionary hits. I take (1) hit with a retreat leaving me now with (1) discretionary hits left. Now my last hit I take as a fatigue hit. Are we saying BOTH hexes gets this fatigue 1 marker put on top of them or just one hex?


...

 
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Fredrik Karlsson
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claystone wrote:
Frocken wrote:
For multiple stack attacks, one hit converted to fatigue will affect all stacks as well, per an earlier ruling. Could also be added



So for every fatigue hit taken "all" hexes in the attack will receive a fatigue marker?

ie: I'm attacking from 2 hexes and each hex has two units in each. My attack doesn't go well and i receive a 2(3) result against my units. Three of my units take (1) step loss each. Now i'm left with (2) discretionary hits. I take (1) hit with a retreat leaving me now with (1) discretionary hits left. Now my last hit I take as a fatigue hit. Are we saying BOTH hexes gets this fatigue 1 marker put on top of them or just one hex?


...



Both
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX/.1ddbe1fc/470
 
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