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Subject: retreating leaderless forces rss

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Seleukos
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Usually leaderless forces may only exist in towns, cities and castles due to the movement restrictions how to drop them off.

Must/May leaderless forces retreat into a non-town point? I have found nothing which seems to forbade this.

If yes: Would introduce a not recommendable "special case" where leaderless forces exist outside towns, cities and castles. May they stand there indefinitely (of cause subject to attrition)?
If no: This might lead to gamey tactics in the late game. Where forces with leaders must retreat, leaderless forces stay if surviving retreat attrition and still control e.g. a town space. Nice tactic to hold the edessan towns in the 2C scenario in the last turn if you don't have to care anymore for strength points.

 
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Neil Randall
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Leaderless forces can never exist outside a town or city. Did you run into a situation in which this happened?
 
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Seleukos
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nrandall wrote:
Leaderless forces can never exist outside a town or city. Did you run into a situation in which this happened?


Yes, of course. Simply have 15 strength points in an edessan town in the 2C scenarios last turn. Lose around 50% in battle and additional 6 due to retreat attrition. Still hold the town and win. My opponent did this accidentially and we checked the rules if this is valid strategy.
The same is possible for Tiberias and other towns. This is better than to try in earnest a defense with a leader if you have inferior forces or you want to hold two or more towns and you spread simply your forces, especially if your opponent has the last move(s).
 
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Philip Thomas
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An obvious situation would be if Balduk (or another leader who hasn't got a replacement) died while leading troops outside a town or city. Those troops would be leaderless...
 
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Neil Randall
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Quote:
Yes, of course. Simply have 15 strength points in an edessan town in the 2C scenarios last turn. Lose around 50% in battle and additional 6 due to retreat attrition. Still hold the town and win. My opponent did this accidentially and we checked the rules if this is valid strategy.


Sorry - I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here. How is this situation about leaderless forces?

Are you saying that the garrison would then have to retreat out of the town and therefore be in a point?

 
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Neil Randall
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Philip Thomas wrote:
An obvious situation would be if Balduk (or another leader who hasn't got a replacement) died while leading troops outside a town or city. Those troops would be leaderless...


Yeah. We used to have a rule, during development, that such an army simply disintegrated (i.e., was eliminated). I don't remember removing it, but I must have at some point. I'll have to check with Richard about this.
 
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Neil Randall
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Okay, looking into this.
 
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Seleukos
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Quote:

Sorry - I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here. How is this situation about leaderless forces?

Are you saying that the garrison would then have to retreat out of the town and therefore be in a point?




If leaderless forces are not allowed to retreat they have to stay and suffer retreat attrition as far as i understand the retreat rules. If they still survive after retreat attrition they still control the town - there a force with a leader would have to have retreated. Thus i'm better off without a leader than with a leader and this looks strange and gamey to me.
This is a useful strategy under specific circumstances in the last turn of a scenario - your opponent moves last, you have inferior forces, you want to cover two or more towns with more than one approach route for the enemy. Best example is the 2C scenario. There are two approach routes to the edessan towns from Antioch. I would garrion both towns with 15 ASP's and put Nur-ed-Din as a speed bump before one town, perhabs even dropping one of his sons as another speed bump before the other if my continuation rolls succeed. This is a far better strategy than just to cover one town with Nur-ed-Din in the town. The mass of successfull continuation rolls needed will break the crusader offensive. I will have high losses - but this is the last turn so i don't care.
I therefore would recommend either a garrision limit for leaderless forces in towns (e.g. 3 ASP's) or a rule clarification/change that they can retreat but are then somehow disintegrated as already suggested.
 
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Neil Randall
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Quote:
I therefore would recommend either a garrision limit for leaderless forces in towns (e.g. 3 ASP's) or a rule clarification/change that they can retreat but are then somehow disintegrated as already suggested.


I'll be making a change soon, depending on RHB's response to my question. At any rate, it won't be preferable any longer to have a town garrisoned by leaderless ASPs instead of an army with a leader.
 
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Neil Randall
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Official ruling (unless RHB objects). I'll be adding this to the living rules - which still look a month away from being finished, alas.

7.2J (new heading): Retreating Leaderless Forces

A leaderless town garrison retreats only via mandatory retreat (they may not voluntarily retreat). An Army that loses its leader, and when there is no replacement available for that leader, must also conduct a mandatory retreat. The following rule specifies the details of these retreats.

Leaderless forces retreat to the nearest friendly Town space, City Space, ("friendly" meaning controlled by that faction or permitted to enter by another faction), or to a space/point with an Army of the same faction as the retreating force. However, they suffer additional losses. Add the Attrition values of the spaces entered during the retreat, and roll that number of dice: the total on the dice is the number of ASPs lost during the retreat. Example: retreating from Marash to Raban means a roll of 3d6.

If the retreating forces enter a space with a friendly Army, after rolling for the additional losses, they automatically join that Army (which could cause Command problems for that player, of course - and the Army may not refuse to accept them).

(Note - and this to be added to the command section - if an Army loses a leader who does not have a replacement, and there is a subordinate leader with that army, the subordinate automatically takes command of the ASPs - again with the requisite possible problems for army sizes).

 
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